Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. wrote: > I'm also finding that, as > whatever cosmic roto-rooter is scouring out my psyche and delivering > up > old bruises, I have to leap myself, over and over." * * * Thank you for expressing that Holly. I was writing of the sadistic abusers of my past (on another list )and seemed to get a lot of responses of forgive and move on etc. I have forgiven and moved on. I quess what some don't realize are the daily triggers,reminders or needlers that have to be leapt over and over as you word it. Thanks, + Maureen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Dharma wrote about some people needing suffering because they crave excitement and fear peace (I hope I paraphrasing right!)... Time and again I've seen people grow and eventually come to the place of "if I'm not my suffering, who am I?" There's a real possibility of transformation in this moment and it's too hard for most folks to make the leap, especially the first time. I'm also finding that, as whatever cosmic roto-rooter is scouring out my psyche and delivering up old bruises, I have to leap myself, over and over. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Hi Holly, >Dharma wrote about some people needing suffering because they crave >excitement and fear peace (I hope I paraphrasing right!)... Well, I was using my ex-husband as an example, and I wouldn't have thought he _feared_ peace. But as I sit here and look at that, I have to wonder. His mother was paranoid... in the early years of our marriage, if we were at her house, we couldn't sit down quietly in the living room for two minutes without her coming in and attacking us... especially him... for just sitting there when there was work to be done... or he could be doing something useful... or she was doing a washing all alone. So off he would go to the basement to help with the washing, and I'd follow too. Everybody had to help prepare meals, and with four people in a little kitchen it was quite a scene... At home I'd say, "Go lie on the couch and let me cook dinner." Or "...wash the dishes." And he'd try... but in a couple of minutes he was back in the kitchen to help... and tell me how to do everything. Said he couldn't just lie down... he felt guilty. I don't know what she was like when he was little... but maybe he did fear peace and quiet. > >Time and again I've seen people grow and eventually come to the place >of "if I'm not my suffering, who am I?" There's a real possibility of >transformation in this moment and it's too hard for most folks to make >the leap, especially the first time. This guy was a minister with great charisma; in seminary he specialized in psychology and counselling. I think he enjoyed seeing the psychologists and psychiatrists over the years... but if they got too close to whatever he didn't want to change, he could talk rings around them. I know people can change if they want to... but if they really don't want to - and if they know the lingo that well - it's pretty hard to do anything. (I should say that I don't know what's been going on with him in recent years, so maybe he did finally change... I wouldn't know.) >I'm also finding that, as >whatever cosmic roto-rooter is scouring out my psyche and delivering up >old bruises, I have to leap myself, over and over. It's wonderful that you're so open to change. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. wrote: > Dharma wrote about some people needing suffering because they crave > excitement and fear peace (I hope I paraphrasing right!)... > > Time and again I've seen people grow and eventually come to the place > of "if I'm not my suffering, who am I?" There's a real possibility of > transformation in this moment and it's too hard for most folks to make > the leap, especially the first time. I'm also finding that, as > whatever cosmic roto-rooter is scouring out my psyche and delivering up > old bruises, I have to leap myself, over and over. Holly Marcia: I have been pondering suffering. There seems to be different kinds of suffering. There seems to be one kind that doesn't have anything at all to do with "me" or "my" personal transformation. Although I am sure that this has to have already happened for the disciple to have sufficient will to consciously suffer. That kind could be looked at as suffering for the future or as Gurdjieff presents it as conscious labor and intentional suffering as"the sower sows the seed in hope but unconcerned with who will reap the harvest." "Those who reach objective reason through conscious labour and intentional suffering are people who serve the future of mankind" "Every significant thing that has come into this world has taken time to give its fruit and for the greatest things, hundreds even thousands of years, have been required." The Buddha, Muhammed, Jesus followed paths of intentional suffering. Just pondering out loud. <s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Hi Marcia, >The Buddha, Muhammed, Jesus followed paths of >intentional suffering. Gautama explained the causes of suffering and how to be free of it. I don't see a path of suffering there. And I don't think I see it in Jesus' life either, except for what happened at the end of his life... but that doesn't seem to constitute a path of suffering. Of course, it's true that there's a great deal we don't know about his life... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Dharma wrote: > > > >The Buddha, Muhammed, Jesus followed paths of > >intentional suffering. > > Gautama explained the causes of suffering and how to be free of it. I > don't see a path of suffering there. > > And I don't think I see it in Jesus' life either, except for what happened > at the end of his life... but that doesn't seem to constitute a path of > suffering. Of course, it's true that there's a great deal we don't know > about his life... Hi Dharma, I think quoting is not so hot but this says it so much better than I could so why not I ask? "The great Messengers demonstrate very clearly how it is. Let us begin with the example of Buddha. At first he followed the path of voluntary suffering. With five companions he set himself to conquer his own nature by means of severe asceticism. It was the way of the athlete. After a time, he saw for himself that this was not leading to freedom and that through this way one must remain in bondage. He went and looked behind it all until finally he saw what was at the root of human slavery and he became free. "Then came the temptation of Mara. Mara said to him: "You have attained enlightenment. You are not free, you have no need to remain in this world, you can go into the perfect freedom". When one has seen what this life is and how great a thing it is to go beyond the limitations of existence one can know what a temptation that really is; but Buddha replied: "No. I've an obligation to manifest. I have to share all this". Mara tries to persuade him that he will fail and that people will not understand but Buddha rejects him. Buddha took on himself the task of sharing what he had seen with others. During the next fifty years he lived a very hard life of constant labour. His own son turned against him and there was a split in his following because some people thought his was was too lax and a stricter discipline was needed. He was rejected by the Brahmins who did not like his discarding of the privileges of caste. So it went on. At the end of his life as an old man walking from village to village, town to town, to help the people who were in need, he came to his last meal with Chunda, a smith. The Buddha said: Give me the truffles and give the rice and cakes to the other". He then went and buried the truffles. That is how it had to be. "The whole of the Buddha's life after enlightenment is a picture of what is meant by conscious labour and intentional suffering. The suffering was not imposed on him. He freely accepted the obligation to prepare something for the future of mankind and through that the suffering came. But this does not mean that the Buddha was an unhappy, miserable creature. On the contrary, there is every indication that he was joyful and humorous while his life was one of labour and suffering." from "Talks on Beelzebub's Tales" . J.G. Bennett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 >> >Marcia: >> >The Buddha, Muhammed, Jesus followed paths of >> >intentional suffering. >> >> Dharma: >> Gautama explained the causes of suffering and how to be free of it. I >> don't see a path of suffering there. >> >> And I don't think I see it in Jesus' life either, except for what happened >> at the end of his life... but that doesn't seem to constitute a path of >> suffering. Of course, it's true that there's a great deal we don't know >> about his life... > Marcia: >I think quoting is not so hot but this says it so >much better than I could so why not I ask? > >"The great Messengers demonstrate very clearly how it >is. Let us begin with the example of Buddha. At first he >followed the path of voluntary suffering. With five >companions he set himself to conquer his own nature >by means of severe asceticism. Yes, Gautama studied with teachers of his time and tried their paths, including this way of severe asceticism. He was not satisfied with any of them and finally set out to discover the truth for himself... a true shaman. >"Then came the temptation of Mara. Mara said to him: >"You have attained enlightenment. You are not free, you >have no need to remain in this world, you can go into the >perfect freedom". When one has seen what this life is >and how great a thing it is to go beyond the limitations >of existence one can know what a temptation that >really is; but Buddha replied: "No. I've an >obligation to manifest. I have to share all this". Oh well, if we're going to include the way of the boddhisattva - returning to or staying in this world in order to help others - as a path of voluntary suffering.... A friend of mine says we are all masochists... or we wouldn't have come into this life. ))) It is said that at the present time many have come into incarnation voluntarily to help during this critical moment in the world's development. Another friend calls these volunteers "the suicide squad." ) Other than that, it seems to me a matter of opinion whether Gautama had "a very hard life of constant labour." He walked out on "the rat-race" and became a wandering holy man. In India you can do that and people don't consider you a tramp or a street person. They revere their holy men and are glad to provide food and whatever they can. He lived a long life, surrounded by his own family, his sangha of beloved disciples. His own cousin took special care of him... probably steered him in out of the rain when he was too wrapped up in meditation to notice it. ) His work, mainly teaching, doesn't strike me as hard labor... but it's a matter of opinion... to me it seems that the work you love becomes a joy. > His own son turned >against him and there was a split in his following >because some people thought his was was too lax >and a stricter discipline was needed. He was >rejected by the Brahmins who did not like his >discarding of the privileges of caste. He had a few problems... who doesn't?... not many, really, when you look at all those years... >At the end of his life as an old man walking >from village to village, town to town, to help >the people who were in need, He lived a long life... if you live long, eventually the body gets old... usually... >But this does not mean that the >Buddha was an unhappy, miserable creature. On the >contrary, there is every indication that he was joyful >and humorous... Yes! Ever notice how many of those statues are smiling? Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Dharma wrote: > Oh well, if we're going to include the way of the boddhisattva - returning > to or staying in this world in order to help others - as a path of > voluntary suffering.... its not ! the bodhisattva first and foremost gives up the causes of suffering. that is desire, ignorance and hatred. Working for others out of compassion and wisdom is how its supposed to be. there is no self! no ego! so why not!? without an ego to cling too, to cherish, there is no problem on the bodhisattva path at all. there is only help, only compassion, only love, no owner of those, no silly ego pride either. How may i help you? --janpa tsomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 On this, i was reading this morning in a book by Lama Zopa Rinpoche called the door to satisfaction. It was all about desire. and its problems first thing a dharma person is supposed to do is give up clinging to desire-objects. to renouce that sort of life. its sort of cool, i thought, why keep on doing the things that for aeons cause problems? desire just makes one chase after things that make us want more things. i will only be happy if have that new feeling, that new sensation, that new thingy. or just something different--i'll take your spiritual path please, mine is boring now. it helps i think, for a theist, to see god in everyone. then i could see you could lose desire because you already have what everyone else has. lost in the bliss of that. for the non-theist, it only makes sense too. we are all made of the same stuff. we rise from emptiness/limitlessness (sunyata) and are herby defined by perceptions and delusions. so if one refines those, and gets closer to reality, one sees that everyone is basically the same. looking for the same stuff. (ithink the bhaktis have it easier some days than poor goofy folks like me who reason everything out). lost in the bliss of that or one could work for others, lose yourself in the bliss of that. or breathe it out. lost in the bliss of birth and death. in and out dont care about god or not anymore. rather funny it is from here. it never really mattered anyway! --janpa the villiage idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 At 08:51 AM 3/15/99 -0600, you wrote: >"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > >On this, i was reading this morning in a book by Lama Zopa Rinpoche called >the door to satisfaction. It was all about desire. and its problems > >first thing a dharma person is supposed to do is give up clinging to >desire-objects. to renouce that sort of life. You know something, though? That does not necessarily require *physically* giving anything up (although that might help). What it requires is giving up *attachment* to objects of desire and of the senses. That means that instead of a deadly-serious thing, a sense-craving may be enjoyed as a game of cards is enjoyed, but when it's time to put down the cards there MUST be no resistance to that. If there is any, then it's probably better to go a step further and *physically* give up the object in question. >its sort of cool, i thought, why keep on doing the things that for aeons >cause problems? desire just makes one chase after things that make us want >more things. i will only be happy if have that new feeling, that new >sensation, that new thingy. or just something different--i'll take your >spiritual path please, mine is boring now. Have anything you like :-)... as long as you're ready and willing to give it up at a moment's notice, without a single thought. Keep in mind that nothing is yours, nothing at all, but one thing. The sense of I AM. That sense is birthless and deathless, will be with You throughout Eternity. Meditate on I AM, go deeply into it. Ask yourself who you are fifty times a day. >it helps i think, for a theist, to see god in everyone. then i could see >you could lose desire because you already have what everyone else has. >lost in the bliss of that. These days I've grown confused between the meaning of the words "theist" and "atheist." The two blur together in this mind. There is no firm dividing line. An "atheist" may love skiing more than anything else. Is this not the love of God, the skiing being made into a God in that person's mind (and actually a part of Brahman, as is everything)? >or one could work for others, lose yourself in the bliss of that. There is *true* joy in giving to others with absolutely no attachment to outcome (expecting nothing back whatsoever). It is a rare person who is lucky enough to be able to do that, without even self-ego-gratification. It is a wonderous thing to be able to give unto others, without expectation. Such a person is blessed. I've been lucky enough to have the opportunity a few times. >dont care about god or not anymore. rather funny it is from here. > >it never really mattered anyway! Ditto. At this point, I care about little except BEING. And my understanding is that when even this care goes, nirvikalpa samadhi comes (Nisargadatta). Ayam atma Brahma, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 List, I would like to suggest a site of interest and importance. I believe it would answer some of the questions that are circulating. Read the entire site, but pay particular attention to the publications section, reading the article "Moksha and its Means of Attainment" by John Hughes. This is a site dedicated to Swami Lakshman Joo, John's Guru and highly respected Swami. http://www.ksf.org/home.htm Bhaktananda Marcus Marcia Paul <jacpa < > Tuesday, March 16, 1999 1:57 AM Re: suffering Marcia Paul <jacpa Marcia: This may not relate directly but it does relate. I am not sure if it desire exactly that I am thinking about. There seems to be a finer energy to be born as in bearing. As I open or let go of ego or however it is being described I feel like I am riding a very large wave. To consider never getting off that wave even for a second and just to continue riding it forever seems to me to be a form of suffering. Service in the form of being totally responsive every moment seems to be a form of bearing or suffering. Carrying a finer energy seems a form of suffering. Ecstasy also but a pain/pleasure ecstasy. Maybe that is what ecstasy is and I am just a newbie. When Jesus said to John the Baptist to suffer him I feel that is what is being said. There is an energy generated when bodies come near one another. To be continually exposed and to be continually generating this energy takes a certain bearing. Maybe there is a shift which occurs which makes this easier to bear. Perhaps I am just clinging. It feels sort of like filling up a balloon with helium. It floats and it is stretched more taut than it was before it was filled with helium. Perhaps I am still in the resisting stage. I really have no idea. :-) Debora A. Orf wrote: > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > On this, i was reading this morning in a book by Lama Zopa Rinpoche called > the door to satisfaction. It was all about desire. and its problems > > first thing a dharma person is supposed to do is give up clinging to > desire-objects. to renouce that sort of life. > > its sort of cool, i thought, why keep on doing the things that for aeons > cause problems? desire just makes one chase after things that make us want > more things. i will only be happy if have that new feeling, that new > sensation, that new thingy. or just something different--i'll take your > spiritual path please, mine is boring now. > > it helps i think, for a theist, to see god in everyone. then i could see > you could lose desire because you already have what everyone else has. > lost in the bliss of that. > > for the non-theist, it only makes sense too. we are all made of the same > stuff. we rise from emptiness/limitlessness (sunyata) and are herby > defined by perceptions and delusions. so if one refines those, and gets > closer to reality, one sees that everyone is basically the same. looking > for the same stuff. (ithink the bhaktis have it easier some days than poor > goofy folks like me who reason everything out). lost in the bliss of that > > > or one could work for others, lose yourself in the bliss of that. > > or breathe it out. lost in the bliss of birth and death. in and out > > dont care about god or not anymore. rather funny it is from here. > > it never really mattered anyway! > > --janpa the villiage idiot. > > ------ > If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site! > > Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange ------ Is ONElist important to you? Has it changed your life? Come visit our new web site and share with us your stories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 Tim and List, Please forgive my indescretion. "Moksha and its Means of Attainment" can be found under introduction. After reading this, you will find a wealth of information in the publications section. John's message regarding the Shaiva means of Moksha is indespensable reading. Thank you for catching that Tim. Are you having a good evening? Mine is filled with some catching up on Sanskrit material. Bhaktananda Marcus Tim Gerchmez <fewtch < > Tuesday, March 16, 1999 3:23 AM Re: suffering Tim Gerchmez <fewtch Hi Marcus, At 07:56 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >>>> List, I would like to suggest a site of interest and importance. I believe it would answer some of the questions that are circulating. Read the entire site, but pay particular attention to the publications section, reading the article "Moksha and its Means of Attainment" by John Hughes. This is a site dedicated to Swami Lakshman Joo, John's Guru and highly respected Swami. <http://www.ksf.org/home.htm>http://www.ksf.org/home.htm Bhaktananda Marcus <<<< I took a look at this site, but couldn't find the publication you mentioned in the "publications" section. Ayam atma Brahma, With Love, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. ------ If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site! Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 Marcia: This may not relate directly but it does relate. I am not sure if it desire exactly that I am thinking about. There seems to be a finer energy to be born as in bearing. As I open or let go of ego or however it is being described I feel like I am riding a very large wave. To consider never getting off that wave even for a second and just to continue riding it forever seems to me to be a form of suffering. Service in the form of being totally responsive every moment seems to be a form of bearing or suffering. Carrying a finer energy seems a form of suffering. Ecstasy also but a pain/pleasure ecstasy. Maybe that is what ecstasy is and I am just a newbie. When Jesus said to John the Baptist to suffer him I feel that is what is being said. There is an energy generated when bodies come near one another. To be continually exposed and to be continually generating this energy takes a certain bearing. Maybe there is a shift which occurs which makes this easier to bear. Perhaps I am just clinging. It feels sort of like filling up a balloon with helium. It floats and it is stretched more taut than it was before it was filled with helium. Perhaps I am still in the resisting stage. I really have no idea. :-) Debora A. Orf wrote: > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > On this, i was reading this morning in a book by Lama Zopa Rinpoche called > the door to satisfaction. It was all about desire. and its problems > > first thing a dharma person is supposed to do is give up clinging to > desire-objects. to renouce that sort of life. > > its sort of cool, i thought, why keep on doing the things that for aeons > cause problems? desire just makes one chase after things that make us want > more things. i will only be happy if have that new feeling, that new > sensation, that new thingy. or just something different--i'll take your > spiritual path please, mine is boring now. > > it helps i think, for a theist, to see god in everyone. then i could see > you could lose desire because you already have what everyone else has. > lost in the bliss of that. > > for the non-theist, it only makes sense too. we are all made of the same > stuff. we rise from emptiness/limitlessness (sunyata) and are herby > defined by perceptions and delusions. so if one refines those, and gets > closer to reality, one sees that everyone is basically the same. looking > for the same stuff. (ithink the bhaktis have it easier some days than poor > goofy folks like me who reason everything out). lost in the bliss of that > > > or one could work for others, lose yourself in the bliss of that. > > or breathe it out. lost in the bliss of birth and death. in and out > > dont care about god or not anymore. rather funny it is from here. > > it never really mattered anyway! > > --janpa the villiage idiot. > > ------ > If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site! > > Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 Hi Marcus, At 07:56 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >>>> List, I would like to suggest a site of interest and importance. I believe it would answer some of the questions that are circulating. Read the entire site, but pay particular attention to the publications section, reading the article "Moksha and its Means of Attainment" by John Hughes. This is a site dedicated to Swami Lakshman Joo, John's Guru and highly respected Swami. <http://www.ksf.org/home.htm>http://www.ksf.org/home.htm Bhaktananda Marcus <<<< I took a look at this site, but couldn't find the publication you mentioned in the "publications" section. Ayam atma Brahma, With Love, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 Dear Marcus, At 09:12 PM 3/15/99 -0000, you wrote: >>>> Tim and List, Please forgive my indescretion. "Moksha and its Means of Attainment" can be found under introduction. After reading this, you will find a wealth of information in the publications section. John's message regarding the Shaiva means of Moksha is indespensable reading. Thank you for catching that Tim. <<<< You're welcome. >>>> Are you having a good evening? <<<< Unfortunately, it hasn't been so "hot." However, the reason for that is that someone held a "poisoned apple" up to me, and I chose to "take a bite out of it." Next time, I'll politely refuse. :-) >>>> Mine is filled with some catching up on Sanskrit material. <<<< I'm going to have to learn Sanskrit one of these days. I'm picking up a word here and a word there, but the grammatical structure still mostly escapes me. >>>> Bhaktananda Marcus <<<< With Love, ayam atma Brahma, Tim P.S... what is the meaning of the common suffix "nanda?" Thanks... ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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