Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Thank you Ramji for sending this. Reading it has been a great joy. I have a question for scholars (which I am not) and practitioners on Advaita Vedanta and on Sri Shankra in reference to various types of Samadhis. First, I have heard that Sri Shankra was also the author of Saundryalahiri and Anandlahiri which are considered classic texts on Shakti Yoga. Forgive my ignorance on this matter but is that widely accepted among Advaitins? Second, if it is, could someone clarify how Sri Shankra related or integrated Shakti Yoga with Advaita Vedanta? Also, I would appreciate any comments on Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Shakti texts and Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Advaita texts. The four verses of interest are given at the bottom (and there might be more). I am forwarding this to a few lists as some may wish to join in the discussion or follow it. Love to all Harsha Ram Chandran wrote: > Ram Chandran <chandran > > 871. It is in this way that the man of renunciation should meditate > through all the diverse modifications of the mind, upon the nature of > pure existence as the sole object of thought, in so far as it is > indirectly presented through the words of the sruti. In the first > instance,, one begins with the following concept: 'I am the witness of. > the desires that arise in me.' Then step by step, one comes to realize, > as pointed out by the sruti. 'I am pure.' It is in this way that one > should meditate upon the Atman -with entire devotion. Such is the > process by which one attains savikalpa. samAdhi, in association with the > words of the sruti. > > 873. Where the mind functions no longer, where there are no objects of > knowledge, and where the Atman, the witnessing consciousness, is the > sole reality, there arises the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. > > 874. One who has practised savikalpa samadhi for a long time becomes at > long last fit to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, by virtue of the residual > impression Of what he, has practised previously, at an earlier stage. > > 875. It is certain that one who is solely intent upon the realization of > Brahman in nirvikalpa samadhi becomes the eternal Brahman. For such the > vicious cycle of birth and death has come to an end. Such a person > attains the bliss that knows no obstacles, but which is eternal in > nature, changeless and continuous. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Harsha, I have some definitions from the Pratyabhijnahrdayam and the Spanda Karikas that may be of some help: Samadhi: Collectness of mind in which there is cessation of the fluctuations of the mind; mental absorption. Savikalpa Samadhi: Absorption in the Universal witness; watching the thought constructs as the Universal witness. (here you are the detached witness of the thought processes; you watch your thoughts go by as if in a movie, remaining the universal Witness.) Nirvikalpa Samadhi: Devoid of all thought construct or ideation. (This is considered the highest Samadhi in Kashmir Shaivism; very often savikalpa samadhi naturally leads into nirvikalpa samadhi.) Nimilana Samadhi: The inward meditative condition in which the individual consciousness gets absorbed into the universal Consciousness. (inward means with the eyes closed) Unmilana Samadhi: The state of mind in which, even when the eyes are open, the external world appears as universal Consciousness or Shiva. Nirvyutthana Samadhi: Samadhi which continues even when one is not engaged in formal meditation. Also called Sahajavastha. Much Light Marcus Also, I would appreciate any comments on Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Shakti texts and Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Advaita texts. The four verses of interest are given at the bottom (and there might be more). I am forwarding this to a few lists as some may wish to join in the discussion or follow it. Love to all Harsha Ram Chandran wrote: > Ram Chandran <chandran > > 871. It is in this way that the man of renunciation should meditate > through all the diverse modifications of the mind, upon the nature of > pure existence as the sole object of thought, in so far as it is > indirectly presented through the words of the sruti. In the first > instance,, one begins with the following concept: 'I am the witness of. > the desires that arise in me.' Then step by step, one comes to realize, > as pointed out by the sruti. 'I am pure.' It is in this way that one > should meditate upon the Atman -with entire devotion. Such is the > process by which one attains savikalpa. samAdhi, in association with the > words of the sruti. > > 873. Where the mind functions no longer, where there are no objects of > knowledge, and where the Atman, the witnessing consciousness, is the > sole reality, there arises the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. > > 874. One who has practised savikalpa samadhi for a long time becomes at > long last fit to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, by virtue of the residual > impression Of what he, has practised previously, at an earlier stage. > > 875. It is certain that one who is solely intent upon the realization of > Brahman in nirvikalpa samadhi becomes the eternal Brahman. For such the > vicious cycle of birth and death has come to an end. Such a person > attains the bliss that knows no obstacles, but which is eternal in > nature, changeless and continuous. > ------ We have a new web site! Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Harsha, This is true. Swami Muktananda, before taking mahasamadhi (shedding of the body) said that arguments as to whether the world was real or illusary was beside the point, and a fruitless endeavor, as the means and the goal are still identical. There is nothing that is not Shiva. Much Light Marcus Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) <hluthar < > Tuesday, March 16, 1999 10:01 PM Re: Some questions? Marcus, thank you for your last two posts. They contain much wisdom, insight and in-depth knowledge of Shaivism. It seems to me that on a practical level there is not much difference between Advaita Vedanta and Advaita Shaivism. As you might know Ramana Maharshi liberally quoted from Shiva scriptures and even translated some of the Agmas from Sanskrit into Tamil for the benefit of the devotees. In one of them Shiva gives instructions to Parvati on the Self. In the other, Shiva gives instructions to his son on the Self. The teaching is both beautiful and stunning for its simplicity and clarity. These translations can be found in the collected works of Ramana Maharshi. Harsha Gemini [currwamp] Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:09 AM Re: Some questions? Harsha, I have some definitions from the Pratyabhijnahrdayam and the Spanda Karikas that may be of some help: Samadhi: Collectness of mind in which there is cessation of the fluctuations of the mind; mental absorption. Savikalpa Samadhi: Absorption in the Universal witness; watching the thought constructs as the Universal witness. (here you are the detached witness of the thought processes; you watch your thoughts go by as if in a movie, remaining the universal Witness.) Nirvikalpa Samadhi: Devoid of all thought construct or ideation. (This is considered the highest Samadhi in Kashmir Shaivism; very often savikalpa samadhi naturally leads into nirvikalpa samadhi.) Nimilana Samadhi: The inward meditative condition in which the individual consciousness gets absorbed into the universal Consciousness. (inward means with the eyes closed) Unmilana Samadhi: The state of mind in which, even when the eyes are open, the external world appears as universal Consciousness or Shiva. Nirvyutthana Samadhi: Samadhi which continues even when one is not engaged in formal meditation. Also called Sahajavastha. Much Light Marcus Also, I would appreciate any comments on Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Shakti texts and Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Advaita texts. The four verses of interest are given at the bottom (and there might be more). I am forwarding this to a few lists as some may wish to join in the discussion or follow it. Love to all Harsha Ram Chandran wrote: > Ram Chandran <chandran > > 871. It is in this way that the man of renunciation should meditate > through all the diverse modifications of the mind, upon the nature of > pure existence as the sole object of thought, in so far as it is > indirectly presented through the words of the sruti. In the first > instance,, one begins with the following concept: 'I am the witness of. > the desires that arise in me.' Then step by step, one comes to realize, > as pointed out by the sruti. 'I am pure.' It is in this way that one > should meditate upon the Atman -with entire devotion. Such is the > process by which one attains savikalpa. samAdhi, in association with the > words of the sruti. > > 873. Where the mind functions no longer, where there are no objects of > knowledge, and where the Atman, the witnessing consciousness, is the > sole reality, there arises the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. > > 874. One who has practised savikalpa samadhi for a long time becomes at > long last fit to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, by virtue of the residual > impression Of what he, has practised previously, at an earlier stage. > > 875. It is certain that one who is solely intent upon the realization of > Brahman in nirvikalpa samadhi becomes the eternal Brahman. For such the > vicious cycle of birth and death has come to an end. Such a person > attains the bliss that knows no obstacles, but which is eternal in > nature, changeless and continuous. > ------ We have a new web site! Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Marcus, thank you for your last two posts. They contain much wisdom, insight and in-depth knowledge of Shaivism. It seems to me that on a practical level there is not much difference between Advaita Vedanta and Advaita Shaivism. As you might know Ramana Maharshi liberally quoted from Shiva scriptures and even translated some of the Agmas from Sanskrit into Tamil for the benefit of the devotees. In one of them Shiva gives instructions to Parvati on the Self. In the other, Shiva gives instructions to his son on the Self. The teaching is both beautiful and stunning for its simplicity and clarity. These translations can be found in the collected works of Ramana Maharshi. Harsha Gemini [currwamp] Tuesday, March 16, 1999 7:09 AM Re: Some questions? Harsha, I have some definitions from the Pratyabhijnahrdayam and the Spanda Karikas that may be of some help: Samadhi: Collectness of mind in which there is cessation of the fluctuations of the mind; mental absorption. Savikalpa Samadhi: Absorption in the Universal witness; watching the thought constructs as the Universal witness. (here you are the detached witness of the thought processes; you watch your thoughts go by as if in a movie, remaining the universal Witness.) Nirvikalpa Samadhi: Devoid of all thought construct or ideation. (This is considered the highest Samadhi in Kashmir Shaivism; very often savikalpa samadhi naturally leads into nirvikalpa samadhi.) Nimilana Samadhi: The inward meditative condition in which the individual consciousness gets absorbed into the universal Consciousness. (inward means with the eyes closed) Unmilana Samadhi: The state of mind in which, even when the eyes are open, the external world appears as universal Consciousness or Shiva. Nirvyutthana Samadhi: Samadhi which continues even when one is not engaged in formal meditation. Also called Sahajavastha. Much Light Marcus Also, I would appreciate any comments on Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Shakti texts and Nirvikalpa Samadhi as described in Advaita texts. The four verses of interest are given at the bottom (and there might be more). I am forwarding this to a few lists as some may wish to join in the discussion or follow it. Love to all Harsha Ram Chandran wrote: > Ram Chandran <chandran > > 871. It is in this way that the man of renunciation should meditate > through all the diverse modifications of the mind, upon the nature of > pure existence as the sole object of thought, in so far as it is > indirectly presented through the words of the sruti. In the first > instance,, one begins with the following concept: 'I am the witness of. > the desires that arise in me.' Then step by step, one comes to realize, > as pointed out by the sruti. 'I am pure.' It is in this way that one > should meditate upon the Atman -with entire devotion. Such is the > process by which one attains savikalpa. samAdhi, in association with the > words of the sruti. > > 873. Where the mind functions no longer, where there are no objects of > knowledge, and where the Atman, the witnessing consciousness, is the > sole reality, there arises the experience of nirvikalpa samadhi. > > 874. One who has practised savikalpa samadhi for a long time becomes at > long last fit to attain nirvikalpa samadhi, by virtue of the residual > impression Of what he, has practised previously, at an earlier stage. > > 875. It is certain that one who is solely intent upon the realization of > Brahman in nirvikalpa samadhi becomes the eternal Brahman. For such the > vicious cycle of birth and death has come to an end. Such a person > attains the bliss that knows no obstacles, but which is eternal in > nature, changeless and continuous. > -- ---- We have a new web site! Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 1999 Report Share Posted March 17, 1999 Hi Dharma, Very thoughtful questions. Thank you for posting, as it is easy to assume. Yes, these definitions were taken from various ancient Shaivite texts, including nimilana samadhi. Nimilana literally means "eyes shut" and unmilana means literally "eyes open." Nirvyutthana literally means "spontaneous; natural." This term applies when, say, you are at the grocery store standing in line, only to realize your in samadhi when someone says, excuse me, Ma'am? This happens quite a bit on the highway. You are going down the highway to your destination which is 15 miles away, and suddenly you are there. Staring at the highway brings on Nirvyutthana, sometimes called Sahajavastha, quite easiy. These states are not seperated by clear, bold lines. They blend with each other. In fact, they are all the one state; the individual merely journeys up and down the various levels of the one samadhi. Kashmir Shaivism considers nirvikalpa samadhi (thoughtless state) to be the highest state of samadhi. Remember that these definitions only serve as a reference to where in samadhi you actually are. If you are gazing at thoughts in contemplation as the detached witness (daydreaming), this is savikalpa. If your eyes are open, this is unmilana; eyes closed, nimilana. The thoughtless state (usually meditation, but not necessarily) nirvikalpa. Spontaneously in the store, on the highway, etc...nirvutthana or sahajavastha. If you are daydreaming in the line at the grocery store without realizing it, this is savikalpa, brought on by nirvutthana. If in meditation you start out watching thoughts go by and eventually dropping all though constructs, and doing this with your eyes close. You have been continually observing nimilana samadhi, which facilitated savikalpa samadhi, which led into nirvikalpa samadhi. When we think of the various definitions as the various states of samadhi depending on what we are doing, it becomes much clearer and simple to understand. Thank you for the very intelligent question. Hope your day is full satchidananda (absolute being/consciousness/bliss)! Bhaktananda Marcus Dharma <fisher1 < > Wednesday, March 17, 1999 5:53 PM Re: Some questions? Dharma <fisher1 Hi Marcus, > Samadhi: Collectness of mind in which there is cessation of the >fluctuations of the mind; mental absorption. > Savikalpa Samadhi: Absorption in the Universal witness; watching the >thought constructs as the Universal witness. (here you are the detached >witness of the thought processes; you watch your thoughts go by as if in >a movie, remaining the universal Witness.) > Nirvikalpa Samadhi: Devoid of all thought construct or ideation. (This >is considered the highest Samadhi in Kashmir Shaivism; very often >savikalpa samadhi naturally leads into nirvikalpa samadhi.) Does Kashmir Shaivism not recognize such a state as Nimilana Samadhi? > Nimilana Samadhi: The inward meditative condition in which the >individual consciousness gets absorbed into the universal Consciousness. >(inward means with the eyes closed) > Unmilana Samadhi: The state of mind in which, even when the eyes are >open, the external world appears as universal Consciousness or Shiva. Are these the same thing, one with eyes open and one with them shut? Or is the second quite different? > Nirvyutthana Samadhi: Samadhi which continues even when one is not >engaged in formal meditation. Also called Sahajavastha. Does this mean the state in which there is no "mind chatter" because the intellect is operating below the level of consciousness, and the mind or consciousness is operating on what we would call the intuitive level? Love, Dharma ------ Did you know that we have over 85,000 e-mail communities at Onelist? Come visit our new web site and explore a new interest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 1999 Report Share Posted March 17, 1999 Hi Marcus, > Samadhi: Collectness of mind in which there is cessation of the >fluctuations of the mind; mental absorption. > Savikalpa Samadhi: Absorption in the Universal witness; watching the >thought constructs as the Universal witness. (here you are the detached >witness of the thought processes; you watch your thoughts go by as if in >a movie, remaining the universal Witness.) > Nirvikalpa Samadhi: Devoid of all thought construct or ideation. (This >is considered the highest Samadhi in Kashmir Shaivism; very often >savikalpa samadhi naturally leads into nirvikalpa samadhi.) Does Kashmir Shaivism not recognize such a state as Nimilana Samadhi? > Nimilana Samadhi: The inward meditative condition in which the >individual consciousness gets absorbed into the universal Consciousness. >(inward means with the eyes closed) > Unmilana Samadhi: The state of mind in which, even when the eyes are >open, the external world appears as universal Consciousness or Shiva. Are these the same thing, one with eyes open and one with them shut? Or is the second quite different? > Nirvyutthana Samadhi: Samadhi which continues even when one is not >engaged in formal meditation. Also called Sahajavastha. Does this mean the state in which there is no "mind chatter" because the intellect is operating below the level of consciousness, and the mind or consciousness is operating on what we would call the intuitive level? Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 Hi Marcus, >Nirvyutthana literally means "spontaneous; natural." This term applies >when, say, you are at the grocery store standing in line, only to realize >your in samadhi when someone says, excuse me, Ma'am? This happens quite a >bit on the highway. You are going down the highway to your destination >which is 15 miles away, and suddenly you are there. Staring at the >highway brings on Nirvyutthana, sometimes called Sahajavastha, quite >easiy. Don't these things happen to everyone? >If you are gazing at thoughts in contemplation as the detached witness >(daydreaming), this is savikalpa. >snip< >If you are daydreaming in the line at the grocery store without realizing >it, this is savikalpa, brought on by nirvutthana. These two don't seem to be the same thing. Are you saying that one is just a more concentrated, focussed version of the other? >Kashmir Shaivism considers nirvikalpa samadhi (thoughtless state) to be >the highest state of samadhi. What do you call the experience of... union with... the All, the unmanifest? I thought Harsha meant that by nirvikalpa, but just being without thought is not the same thing. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 Hi Tim, >>>Nirvyutthana literally means "spontaneous; natural." This term applies >>>when, say, you are at the grocery store standing in line, only to realize >>>your in samadhi when someone says, excuse me, Ma'am? This happens quite a >>>bit on the highway. You are going down the highway to your destination >>>which is 15 miles away, and suddenly you are there. Staring at the >>>highway brings on Nirvyutthana, sometimes called Sahajavastha, quite >>>easiy. >> >>Don't these things happen to everyone? > >Have you ever considered the possibility that samadhi is the natural state >of EVERYONE, whether or not they follow any formal spiritual practice at >all, whether they are good or evil, rich or poor, dualistic or nondualistic >or whatever label they or others may have placed on them? Have you ever >considered that possibility? That samadhi is our natural state, the state >of every human being on the face of the planet? Even Nirvikalpa Samadhi? I asked Marcus some questions because I want to understand everything he's explaining. Why are you angry? Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 Dharma, Tim has a good point. Varying forms of samadhi do actually happen to people all the time; they only do not realize the signifigance of it. One does not have to believe in a rock to be hit on the head by one. Assembly of God followers sing and worship until they do seemingly crazy things, according the the more conventional Protestants. They Chant spontaneously, perform Mudras and inner and outer kriyas, and Kundalini flows, causing very erratic behavior and movements. Do you think for one minute they call it chanting, kriyas, mudras, or Kundalini? Like almighty God, there are several names for the one thing. If Self realization is not pursued minute by minute in the heart, one can fall dormant again. This is why people fall into spontaneous Samadhi, only to shrug it off as "in a daze" falling back into the previous state of bondage. Bhaktananda Marcus Dharma <fisher1 < > Thursday, March 18, 1999 11:33 AM Re: Some questions? Dharma <fisher1 Hi Tim, >>>Nirvyutthana literally means "spontaneous; natural." This term applies >>>when, say, you are at the grocery store standing in line, only to realize >>>your in samadhi when someone says, excuse me, Ma'am? This happens quite a >>>bit on the highway. You are going down the highway to your destination >>>which is 15 miles away, and suddenly you are there. Staring at the >>>highway brings on Nirvyutthana, sometimes called Sahajavastha, quite >>>easiy. >> >>Don't these things happen to everyone? > >Have you ever considered the possibility that samadhi is the natural state >of EVERYONE, whether or not they follow any formal spiritual practice at >all, whether they are good or evil, rich or poor, dualistic or nondualistic >or whatever label they or others may have placed on them? Have you ever >considered that possibility? That samadhi is our natural state, the state >of every human being on the face of the planet? Even Nirvikalpa Samadhi? I asked Marcus some questions because I want to understand everything he's explaining. Why are you angry? Love, Dharma ------ Start a new hobby. Meet a new friend. Onelist: The leading provider of free email list services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 Dharma, >If you are gazing at thoughts in contemplation as the detached witness >(daydreaming), this is savikalpa. >snip< >If you are daydreaming in the line at the grocery store without realizing >it, this is savikalpa, brought on by nirvutthana. These two don't seem to be the same thing. Are you saying that one is just a more concentrated, focussed version of the other? Savikalpa means identification with, or merger with the universal Consciousness. One watches thoughts go by in a detached manner. When angry we say, "I am mad"; when in savikalpa, we see the anger go through the mind, but do not identify with it. When we "daydream" we see some pretty horrific thoughts, but sit quietly detached watching them. This would not be the case if they were manifested in us in a literal sense. >Kashmir Shaivism considers nirvikalpa samadhi (thoughtless state) to be >the highest state of samadhi. What do you call the experience of... union with... the All, the unmanifest? I thought Harsha meant that by nirvikalpa, but just being without thought is not the same thing. All states of samadhi are union with the divine. When in Savikalpa, we see thoughts go by, but do not participate in the reactions, we are one with the universal Witness, remaining unaffected. Nirvikalpa or the thoughtless state is total absorption...one does not even Witness thoughts...all constructs are idle...there is nothing, not even attention noticed. One only knows they have been in this state afterward, when they come out of it and say, "how long was going on? What time is it" This person was the same as dead. Completely unawares of both surroundings and body. All samadhi states are awareness of and merger with the Divine principle though. Bhaktananda Marcus ------ To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 Dear Dharma, At 02:26 AM 3/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >Dharma <fisher1 > >>Nirvyutthana literally means "spontaneous; natural." This term applies >>when, say, you are at the grocery store standing in line, only to realize >>your in samadhi when someone says, excuse me, Ma'am? This happens quite a >>bit on the highway. You are going down the highway to your destination >>which is 15 miles away, and suddenly you are there. Staring at the >>highway brings on Nirvyutthana, sometimes called Sahajavastha, quite >>easiy. > >Don't these things happen to everyone? Have you ever considered the possibility that samadhi is the natural state of EVERYONE, whether or not they follow any formal spiritual practice at all, whether they are good or evil, rich or poor, dualistic or nondualistic or whatever label they or others may have placed on them? Have you ever considered that possibility? That samadhi is our natural state, the state of every human being on the face of the planet? Even Nirvikalpa Samadhi? With Love, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 1999 Report Share Posted March 18, 1999 At 05:09 AM 3/18/99 -0600, you wrote: >>>Don't these things happen to everyone? >> >>Have you ever considered the possibility that samadhi is the natural state >>of EVERYONE, whether or not they follow any formal spiritual practice at >>all, whether they are good or evil, rich or poor, dualistic or nondualistic >>or whatever label they or others may have placed on them? Have you ever >>considered that possibility? That samadhi is our natural state, the state >>of every human being on the face of the planet? Even Nirvikalpa Samadhi? > >I asked Marcus some questions because I want to understand everything he's >explaining. > >Why are you angry? I wasn't... perhaps I came across that way, if so, please forgive me. This is a very difficult medium to communicate with, without the aid of facial expression or tone of voice. I was genuinely wondering if you had considered the things I mentioned, and now that I re-read it, it does appear that I was angry. But I wasn't, just wondering. Now that I re-read what I wrote, I don't even know why I used that sentence style, as it does seem to indicate that I was angry (at something, anyway). With Love, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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