Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 List, I have always had a fondness for this topic, which seems to cause quite a bit of commotion in the Buddhi mind. Although any explanation given on this list is going to a vikalpa or though construct, I will give it a go. This, by the way, is merely words, not quoted text, and should be considered as such. Just what is meant by death of the ego? I am happy to say that nothing is destroyed, but rather, put in its proper place. Let me explain. The ego has spent so much time creating its identification with the body, that now it seems impossible to reconcile this. We have mistaken a construct for our essence. The mind, with the intellect, the emotions, and singularities of ego are nothing more than specialized constructs. Muktananda calls them the four-fold psychic instrument. We all know by now that we are not our fleeting emotions...not the rationalizing intellect...but that finite I-ness of ego...it just won't let go, will it? The ego is a marvelous construct when viewed correctly; in fact, if we did not possess ego, we would bark at ourselves every time we looked in the mirror. As such, the ego should never be hated. For that matter, all of the four-fould psychic instrument should be loved, it is none other than Chiti. So just what is meant by death of the ego? Death of the ego does not mean destroy the ego, but rather, the notion that it is the Self must perish. In an earlier post regarding Self that was sent, we read that one must give one's self up completely and fully...with great devotion and love we give entirely of ourselves...the death of self ensues, replaced by the eternal, unchanging Self. To the Yogi that does this, there is no duality; the empirical self, with its ego and vikalpas are seen as constructs to assist the body in its day to day functions, which are presided over by God. There is only duality when the ego is not viewed correctly as a reference construct, but rather as a possesser of even part of who you think you are. Hey! Wake up! You are the master of these. Let me give you page 137 of the Vijnanabhairava: Three things are required in a sacrificial oblation: 1) Fire 2) substances that are poured into the fire 3) a ladle in which the substances to be poured are placed In a real spiritual homage, 1) the Supreme Reality of Bhairava is the fire. 2) It is into this fire that the body constituted by the five elements, the senses, the objects of the senses together with the manas i.e. all that constitutes the Empirical personality is to be poured and sanctified. 3) Cetana functions as the laddle. That word cetana is untrans- latable. It is intermediate between chiti, the supreme Univer- sal consciousness and chitta, the individual, empirical mind. Cetana is the intuitive consciousness which serves as anusandhatri--that which leads and unites the chitta with chitti. Is the hard drive the essence of your computer? No! Your computer is nothing but Chiti. The hard drive is merely the storage center. Is the microprocessor in your computer there of its own accord? No! It is only Chiti. The microprocessor does a fine job of processing multiple tasks at your command...and some that are automatic, but it is you who control it. This is true with the mind and its constructs of ego, intellect, emotion, and vikalpas. They are wonderful mechanisms, and rightfully so; they are God's own. Thank them for serving you well while under the veil of Maya; then sacrifice them as an oblation in the fire of Bhairava. In you they remain; the only death that has occured is the death of illusion. These constructs, and the world are your very own. All of these empirical devices are now in the service of Self; all things are just as they should be. Bhaktananda Marcus Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) <hluthar NondualitySalon <NondualitySalon >; < > Tuesday, March 16, 1999 4:13 PM Re: [NondualitySalon] To Sandeep - Re: Identification "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar Attn T Attention [attn2attn] Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:12 AM NondualitySalon [NondualitySalon] To Sandeep - Re: Identification Attn T Attention <attn2attn Dear Sandeep, On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:35:18 +0530 "Sandeep" <sandeepc writes: >>Maybe this is semantics, but it feels as though ego does >>indeed continue to live, but it simply rests comfortably in >>the 'shotgun' position of the car, allowing Soul to drive. > >So long the dew drop is around to do the backseat driving, even it is >only heavy breathing if not actual yelling(grin), it remains a dew drop. TimG: That may be true, but is it not a little impractical to talk about complete and permanent dissolution of ego rather than "relegation of ego to its rightful place" as Melody was? Without mind or ego (will), the body could not even feed itself or take water, and would drop off and die in a couple days. How do you propose that one remains merged with Brahman (I AM) forever, letting the dewdrop totally dissolve, and still be able to let the body live? Certainly there still has to be a motivating force (ego) that moves the body around and allows normal activities to take place. And don't tell me that Brahman will take care of this, because Brahman is not interested in the functioning of somebody's body. So, how do you explain it? With Love, ayam atma Brahma, Tim Harsha: You raise a good question Tim. Many answers have been offered. Ramakrishna once said that if one stays in Nirvikalpa Samadhi for too long (21 days), it is impossible to come back. This explanation is yogic in nature and dualistic like any explanation. Note that Nirvikalpa in the context of Kundalini appears to be explained somewhat differently than Kevala Nirvikalpa in the context of Jnana. On the other hand, many people do continue to function after Self-Realization and so how to explain it. It is actually difficult to explain other than to say that the latent tendencies present continue with some force for some time. From the pure non-dual perspective, the whole issue is moot as Nirvikalpa is always present as the natural state. The Self that is beyond imagination is in fact never absent, cannot be absent in any state of consciousness. Therefore, the Perpetual Recognition with Total Complete and Utter Clarity that there is Only the Self is indeed the natural state referred to as Sahaj Samadhi. This appears to be the best explanation that can be given from a dualistic perspective. Every path is a pathless path. But if you enjoy these kinds of discussions or conversations you are invited to join by clicking on the url below. And feel free to send this url to others who are experienced meditators, yogis, nondual sages, realizers, masters, etc., or are interested in conversing with them. Please check to read the list description to see if it is appropriate for you before joining. This list has around 120 people on it. It is a community of gentle souls. Thanks. /.cgi/ _________________ ------ We have a new web site! Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Attn T Attention [attn2attn] Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:12 AM NondualitySalon [NondualitySalon] To Sandeep - Re: Identification Attn T Attention <attn2attn Dear Sandeep, On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:35:18 +0530 "Sandeep" <sandeepc writes: >>Maybe this is semantics, but it feels as though ego does >>indeed continue to live, but it simply rests comfortably in >>the 'shotgun' position of the car, allowing Soul to drive. > >So long the dew drop is around to do the backseat driving, even it is >only heavy breathing if not actual yelling(grin), it remains a dew drop. TimG: That may be true, but is it not a little impractical to talk about complete and permanent dissolution of ego rather than "relegation of ego to its rightful place" as Melody was? Without mind or ego (will), the body could not even feed itself or take water, and would drop off and die in a couple days. How do you propose that one remains merged with Brahman (I AM) forever, letting the dewdrop totally dissolve, and still be able to let the body live? Certainly there still has to be a motivating force (ego) that moves the body around and allows normal activities to take place. And don't tell me that Brahman will take care of this, because Brahman is not interested in the functioning of somebody's body. So, how do you explain it? With Love, ayam atma Brahma, Tim Harsha: You raise a good question Tim. Many answers have been offered. Ramakrishna once said that if one stays in Nirvikalpa Samadhi for too long (21 days), it is impossible to come back. This explanation is yogic in nature and dualistic like any explanation. Note that Nirvikalpa in the context of Kundalini appears to be explained somewhat differently than Kevala Nirvikalpa in the context of Jnana. On the other hand, many people do continue to function after Self-Realization and so how to explain it. It is actually difficult to explain other than to say that the latent tendencies present continue with some force for some time. From the pure non-dual perspective, the whole issue is moot as Nirvikalpa is always present as the natural state. The Self that is beyond imagination is in fact never absent, cannot be absent in any state of consciousness. Therefore, the Perpetual Recognition with Total Complete and Utter Clarity that there is Only the Self is indeed the natural state referred to as Sahaj Samadhi. This appears to be the best explanation that can be given from a dualistic perspective. Every path is a pathless path. But if you enjoy these kinds of discussions or conversations you are invited to join by clicking on the url below. And feel free to send this url to others who are experienced meditators, yogis, nondual sages, realizers, masters, etc., or are interested in conversing with them. Please check to read the list description to see if it is appropriate for you before joining. This list has around 120 people on it. It is a community of gentle souls. Thanks. /.cgi/ _________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: > > "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > > > Attn T Attention [attn2attn] > Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:12 AM > NondualitySalon > [NondualitySalon] To Sandeep - Re: Identification > > Attn T Attention <attn2attn > > Dear Sandeep, > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:35:18 +0530 "Sandeep" <sandeepc > writes: > > >>Maybe this is semantics, but it feels as though ego does > >>indeed continue to live, but it simply rests comfortably in > >>the 'shotgun' position of the car, allowing Soul to drive. > > > >So long the dew drop is around to do the backseat driving, even it is > >only heavy breathing if not actual yelling(grin), it remains a dew drop. > > TimG: That may be true, but is it not a little impractical to talk about > complete and permanent dissolution of ego rather than "relegation of ego > to its rightful place" as Melody was? Without mind or ego (will), the > body could not even feed itself or take water, and would drop off and die > in a couple days. How do you propose that one remains merged with > Brahman (I AM) forever, letting the dewdrop totally dissolve, and still > be able to let the body live? Certainly there still has to be a > motivating force (ego) that moves the body around and allows normal > activities to take place. And don't tell me that Brahman will take care > of this, because Brahman is not interested in the functioning of > somebody's body. So, how do you explain it? > > With Love, > > ayam atma Brahma, > Tim > > Harsha: You raise a good question Tim. Many answers have been offered. > Ramakrishna once said that if one stays in Nirvikalpa Samadhi for too long > (21 days), it is impossible to come back. This explanation is yogic in > nature and dualistic like any explanation. Note that Nirvikalpa in the > context of Kundalini appears to be explained somewhat differently than > Kevala Nirvikalpa in the context of Jnana. On the other hand, many people do > continue to function after Self-Realization and so how to explain it. It is > actually difficult to explain other than to say that the latent tendencies > present continue with some force for some time. From the pure non-dual > perspective, the whole issue is moot as Nirvikalpa is always present as the > natural state. The Self that is beyond imagination is in fact never absent, > cannot be absent in any state of consciousness. Therefore, the Perpetual > Recognition with Total Complete and Utter Clarity that there is Only the > Self is indeed the natural state referred to as Sahaj Samadhi. This appears > to be the best explanation that can be given from a dualistic perspective. Gloria: It is my experience that the body continues to work act and move with life. The difference is that everything is seen from a single point. And there are not reactions but actions. Dreams are different, everything changes when the mind sits in emptiness. You actually become other people when going through something with them. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 1999 Report Share Posted March 16, 1999 > Attn T Attention <attn2attn > > > Dear Sandeep, > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:35:18 +0530 "Sandeep" <sandeepc > writes: > > >>Maybe this is semantics, but it feels as though ego does > >>indeed continue to live, but it simply rests comfortably in > >>the 'shotgun' position of the car, allowing Soul to drive. > > > >So long the dew drop is around to do the backseat driving, even it is > >only heavy breathing if not actual yelling(grin), it remains a dew drop. > > That may be true, but is it not a little impractical to talk about > complete and permanent dissolution of ego rather than "relegation of ego > to its rightful place" as Melody was? Without mind or ego (will), the > body could not even feed itself or take water, and would drop off and die > in a couple days. Ego is but a virtual focus of ongoing activities like thinking, acting, willing etc. One becomes painstakingly aware of this when one surrenders ("my" will vs. "thy" will). As one will learn, all activities can continue without such a virtual focus. Surrender leads to a situation where this virtual focus actually "goes up in smoke" and then it seems to have never existed. An amplifying perspective can be held, referring to the transformations by Kundalini. Ramakrishna, who was initiated into nondualism by the monk Totapuri, had to concentrate on Ajna chakra (third eye). This is supposed to be the center of "I-making" and by concentrating on it, Ramakrishna went into nirvikalpa samadhi. This center still is operational after one's virtual focus is a thing of the past, suggesting there is more to "ego" then "just" being doer / thinker / sufferer etc. Only after the coming and going of samadhi is put to an end (transformed into sahaja samadhi), will it become increasingly difficult to concentrate on ajna until finally it cannot be located anymore as an object of concentration, denoting the physiological end of identifications. How do you propose that one remains merged with > Brahman (I AM) forever, letting the dewdrop totally dissolve, and still > be able to let the body live? Certainly there still has to be a > motivating force (ego) that moves the body around and allows normal > activities to take place. And don't tell me that Brahman will take care > of this, because Brahman is not interested in the functioning of > somebody's body. So, how do you explain it? > > With Love, > > ayam atma Brahma, > Tim One is merged forever already but the fictive unit called ego is what prevents one from "experiencing" it. Life carries enough momentum to go on without motive, like a boat will continue to move when the engine is stopped. Surrender is about giving up the sense of ego altogether; according to the rule of nature "what isn't used will in the course of events become atrophied", it will weaken first and then vanish altogether. Because it was a virtual unit, there doesn't even remain a trace of memory about its "former" existence. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 1999 Report Share Posted March 17, 1999 Gloria Greco wrote: > > jb wrote: > > forever already but the fictive unit called ego is what > > prevents one from "experiencing" it. Life carries enough momentum to go on > > without motive, like a boat will continue to move when the engine is > > stopped. Surrender is about giving up the sense of ego altogether; according > > to the rule of nature "what isn't used will in the course of events become > > atrophied", it will weaken first and then vanish altogether. Because it was > > a virtual unit, there doesn't even remain a trace of memory about its > > "former" existence. > > > > Jan > > Gloria: > A while back somebody wrote about the pure high energy stream, this > stream is Divine Will. As one surrenders to God from the heart, the mind > and soul... it is soon a way of life...simply something that is the > rythmn in which one lives, then the ego becomes absorbed into this very > high pure stream of love and light. This stream is what makes non-dual > living possible. > One doesn't live from thought, or desire, or any kind of idea of what > is, instead the soul simply lives "IN WHAT IS." (Without thought or > judgment) And in this...the moment/Divine Will creates from NO cause and > transforms life according to Purpose, (God's Will and not mine). > All that is left is to flow, and in flowing the True Self, the witness > brings about transformation. To remain in the flow involves surrender. > Which means anything that will lower the vibration of love will drop the > vibration back into the solar plexus. To return to the heart center, > the individual must see and acknowledge self creation, which will remove > the self imposed restriction and lift the vibration back up to the > higher frequency of Divine Will. This process is how the Holy Spirit > teaches the separate "I" about, I Am... the True Self. > So some say, how is God going to care about my bills, what I eat, what > I do in the day, fixing dinner for the kids. All of these things are > very much a part of Divine Will, when the self gives up control from > that of creating from desire and thought, and chooses through free will > to align and surrender to God's Will, then the teaching is on course > and all one need do is to move with the flow. (without thought or > emotion) > The individual is shown moment by moment how it all works. With each > realization comes light, love, and interior knowing so much that the > faith from the mind and thought becomes the trust and surrender of > direct experience through union with God. As the I surrenders every > aspect of life, every thought and every fear is lifted into the > awareness of what God is and who you are in relationship to him/her. The > Absorbtion or union is under way. With each victory of letting go one > also understands this is something being done by God for you, through > you as grace... since it is really the undoing of the self creation > process which you have now choosen by getting out of the way. > The question here is what does it take to live in this state of union > with Divine Will? It is the surrender in total to God. Some people then > say how do you do that? It is not something you do, you can't on your > own. You turn inside, it is your soul intention that does this from here > out. The higher self awareness becomes strong when humility and > surrender come together through the Holy Spirit or Kundalini... if this > is a better word. Sincere soul conversation with what is and deep > meditations will increase light and kundalini/Holy Spirit so that grace > will lift and carry one in the high frequency of love, and soon the > piercing clear frequency of Divine Will becomes a known. This will also > cleanse and balance the subtle body and begin to undo or clear up world > problems, issues of disharmony in life. There is a ripple effect from > each pure cycle of letting go, like waves of love Holy Spirit/Kundalini > power goes to work on every single aspect of life which involves self > creation. > Recognizing that any thought of self, I think, I want, I fear creates > division or duality, one observes the action and by seeing it and having > been pulled out of union, he/she lets go again... and is lifted back > into the stream. Thought and judgment will lower the vibration or > frequency and remove one from the stream. This is what I call stealing > energy. > As one sincerely and clearly comes from this soul intention one > becomes absorbed into the arms of God, which is Divine Will... and is > released from the I. > Is the I or ego dead? In the rebirthing process it is reborn as > interior knowing which produces the resurrected I Am consciousness. Does > the ego have any life separate from I Am. No. Does the human still > operate and continue in life? Yes, if it is Divine Will. > During this death of self, one dies to thoughts, ideas, desires, and > as this happens it will show up in dreams as death needs to be experienced as > well as the rebirth. Training will happen in dreams to show you the mysteries of spirit. The rebirth will continue which most see as a small > baby that one is attending to in dreams, this is the Christ self > increasing as the separate self decreases. > For most it is a process of moving from the state of I think, I want, I > feel into the realization of God, thus self realization. For some who > have passed this way before and have done this work in past lives, then > it can manifest very differently. > > ------ > > > > -- Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at : lodpress and visit our homepages at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ & http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/ Hope you enjoy them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.