Thanks and Welcome back

March 24, 1999

Good Morning Tim,

I agree with you. We do not have the insight or the powers to see whether a

person is "There" or "Not". I have questioned myself about this often. I

fear sharing my loving thoughts sometimes, because I do not know where another

person is truly coming from.

It would take a great deal of energy to try to figure someone else out. It

takes enough energy to be true with my own words and feelings. So I choose to

"Not want to know." By trying to figure "Them" out, I put myself in a place

of being judgmental. That is not where I want to be.

Instead I hope that true words and feelings from me will reach the part of

them that is "There". And if not, they will be gone soon enough.

Laura

March 24, 1999

Dear Linda, Holly & List,

I am totally newbie on this spiritual path. I have been totally left

brained, dual and linear minded, until a year ago when K threw me onto

this rewarding journey. I am learning.

May I throw in a question? Is the divine Self vast and deep enough to

accommodate all? Whatever there are? Or, is this a goal worthy to work

on?

Love, Sam.

>"Linda Callanan" <shastra

>

>< >

> Re: Thanks and Welcome back

>Tue, 23 Mar 1999 23:53:51 -0500

>

>"Linda Callanan" <shastra

>

>Dear Holly,

>

>The paradoxes of which you speak are indeed familiar to most of us. I

have

>come to the conclusion that once one chooses to move consciously along

>towards non-duality, enlightenment, merging, union with God etc. they

are

>going to confront what's in the mind that prevents them from oneness.

That

>can be a painful and at times totally confusing process. While it is

>important to be detached and to come from a place of love and

compassion

>there must also be discrimination. The mind is what needs to be worked

with

>in order to move beyond to a higher level of awareness. Do we really

serve

>someone by feeding into a mental state that is angry, unreasonable or

>offensive? Is it true compassion that looks the other way?

>

>I must admit I'm not sure as to the answer of keeping the list peaceful

>though I liked Jan's gentle reminder as to a Satsang being harmonious.

I

>believe that if I were visiting this and the non-duality list for the

first

>time last week I would have d rather quickly. For myself, I

had

>a hard time keeping up with sorting through and deleting, I put certain

>messages aside to look at later and finally gave up and just cleaned

out

>everything.

>

>It is not lack of love or compassion that leads me towards thinking

that we

>must have something in place to keep order. It is more a matter of

keeping

>to the purpose of the lists.

>

>Anyway that is my take on this situation.

>

>Namaste,

>Linda

>

>Holly:

>

>>Jan's post on memes and Gloria's fine response to Tim have got me

>>thinking. There may be a built-in difficulty to a list that is

>>organized around Self-Realization that reflects some of the paradoxes

>>I, at least, find in the process itself. We are understandably

anxious

>>to talk about the Realization, the Goal that we finally have to give

up

>>even holding as a goal, so we discuss a truth that is Here but, for

>>some of us, is still felt to be There (whew, this is hard to

explain!).

>>I know Jan and others have had the Grace to have gotten There in one

>>fell swoop, but I and I'm guessing some others are experiencing this

>>strange dual consciousness where I'm There and then I'm back here in

>>time, in process. There is much that is astonishing in process-land:

>>seeing God in my husband, watching trees shimmer, feeling Silence

>>slowly but surely spread across my body. There is much that is

>>difficult in process-land, too: soft grief with each letting go,

>>isolation, the struggle to surrender. Maybe because we focus so much

>>on the Here/There, we get caught up in arguments about absolutes and a

>>necessary space in which to look at process collapses and gets lost.

>>Don't know what to do about all this except maybe keep it in mind.

>Holly

>

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March 24, 1999

One more opinion, folks,

Linda wrote:

>I liked Jan's gentle reminder as to a Satsang being harmonious. I

>believe that if I were visiting this and the non-duality list for the first

>time last week I would have d rather quickly. -snip-

>

>It is not lack of love or compassion that leads me towards thinking that we

>must have something in place to keep order. It is more a matter of keeping

>to the purpose of the lists.

I agree with that, and Harsha has made a statement about the spirit and

philosophy of the list:

>Dear Chris, Thanks for your post. I know you are an open, honest and a

>sincere person and it is a joy to have you join us. You truly understand the

>spirit of the list and we need this understanding. I am concerned because

>some very good and decent people whom I know have left because of the

>hostility directed at them and some very negative posts that appeared on

>this list. I do wish to state that highly negative and charged general posts

>or posts directed in a derogatory personal manner at others are inconsistent

>with the philosophy of this list. Just because such posts have been

>tolerated does not mean that such posts are acceptable in the future as they

>poison the environment of fellowship.

So it's a fellowship, and "highly negative and charged general posts or

posts directed in a derogatory personal manner at others" are not

acceptable here.

This is not a therapy group. There are other places where a person can get

help with personality problems...

Gloria, you have a wonderful facility with Tim... but if it's going to

take extensive talk about his personal problems, I don't think it belongs

here... Maybe you could help him on your own list... but since you say

people are not attacked there in this same way, then maybe you're not doing

this kind of therapy either...

When I teach meditation and form a new group for that purpose, I expect to

find a certain level of personality integration in the members... I expect

them to be oriented toward exploring higher levels and seeking integration

with soul/spirit. Once in a while I get someone who isn't ready... who

has such personal problems that he disrupts the entire group and/or tries

to take control... maybe a guy who wants to take lots of time talking

about his intellectual knowledge and theories and tell everyone else how it

REALLY is. )

I won't take a lot of time to deal with a person like that, because it

takes away from the time we could spend talking about and practicing

meditation. I speak to him once or twice... if I see it isn't going to

stop, I ask him to leave. I do care about that guy, as well as the others,

but he's in the wrong place... I'm not there to do therapy... and I have

to act for the good of the group.

I like what Chris said about AA meetings:

>Somtimes a member would turn up drunk, as long as they were not

>agressive or too long winded it was tolerated but if it started to be

>a habit then they would be met before the got into the room and

>advised not to come back for a week. If there was a repeat

>performance then for the good of the group they were not allowed back.

>

>snip<

>

>If all else fails -snip- then

>if a word in their ear by personal e mail fails then they must leave.

Tim asks for a second chance, but he also says:

>I can't guarantee that it will never

>happen again. I can't control -snip- what I may do in the future.

And I don't think he realizes the power of his words (not to mention the

energy that can carry right over the net) to hurt other people.

>As for hurting

>others, though, (snip) - I think people, if handed a poisoned apple, can

>choose to take a bite, or not. This is not "real life," I didn't shoot

>someone or stab anybody or even slap the back of anyone's hand or raise my

>(real) voice to someone. I just used some unpleasant words in a typed

>format.

They were not just "unpleasant" words... they were extreme and vile. And

also...

If you can give Shaktipat over the net - and you can - then you can also

send some very nasty "poison" along with your nasty words.

Someone pointed out that we can't expect everyone here to be equally immune

to this kind of abuse. I agree... and they shouldn't have to be... we

want various sorts of people here... and we need to protect them from this

kind of thing.

However the council decides to handle these things, I hope you will find

the capability to step in and stop such abuse in the future before more

people are driven away. Or before more people simply decide this isn't

what they were looking for...

I'll put in my vote right now. Tim has his second chance now. If he

starts the same kind of abuse again, he should go.

Let's make it a safe place for our fellowship... a safe place for people

to talk, to gather in satsangh...

Love,

Dharma

March 24, 1999

>

> Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. [hbarrett]

> Wednesday, March 24, 1999 01:31

>

> Re: Thanks and Welcome back

>

> hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.)

>

> Jan's post on memes and Gloria's fine response to Tim have got me

> thinking. There may be a built-in difficulty to a list that is

> organized around Self-Realization that reflects some of the paradoxes

> I, at least, find in the process itself. We are understandably anxious

> to talk about the Realization, the Goal that we finally have to give up

> even holding as a goal, so we discuss a truth that is Here but, for

> some of us, is still felt to be There (whew, this is hard to explain!).

> I know Jan and others have had the Grace to have gotten There in one

> fell swoop, but I and I'm guessing some others are experiencing this

> strange dual consciousness where I'm There and then I'm back here in

> time, in process. There is much that is astonishing in process-land:

> seeing God in my husband, watching trees shimmer, feeling Silence

> slowly but surely spread across my body. There is much that is

> difficult in process-land, too: soft grief with each letting go,

> isolation, the struggle to surrender. Maybe because we focus so much

> on the Here/There, we get caught up in arguments about absolutes and a

> necessary space in which to look at process collapses and gets lost.

> Don't know what to do about all this except maybe keep it in mind.

> Holly

Dear Holly,

What you said: < soft grief with each letting go, isolation, the struggle to

surrender.> is what determines how spiritual life will unfold. Could you

imagine how it would feel, having to let go everything in one "go" and there

wouldn't be a choice? If there isn't a choice, surrender is unconditional

and there are no steps. In unconditional surrender there is no one left to

complain about injustice or pains; one takes everything "as is"; the

principle to "defend and fight" is put out of order. In unconditional

surrender there is no suffering nor enjoying and there isn't any bliss. It

can be compared to a kind of "dark night of the soul" where one is immersed

is in a meaningless void where nothing matters in a literary sense.

Unconditional surrender has always been related to dying, where one also has

to accept whatever happens. The classic is the Kathopanishad. Once I made

small post about what one can extract from history about death being

incorporated in one's practice. If there is a rule to be extracted from

this, it is the following:

Progress is determined by "what one can take / bear in surrender" and this

isn't something one can influence. It is easy to forget bliss isn't a

constant; it is quite possible that going step by step results in more

contentment than when things go without effort. The moral is, never to

compare in this respect - taking things "as are" is a mark of surrender -

God knows what is "best" for us.

Jan

March 24, 1999

You wrote:

>What you said: < soft grief with each letting go, isolation, the

struggle to

>surrender.> is what determines how spiritual life will unfold. Could

you

>imagine how it would feel, having to let go everything in one "go" and

there

>wouldn't be a choice? If there isn't a choice, surrender is

unconditional

>and there are no steps. In unconditional surrender there is no one

left to

>complain about injustice or pains; one takes everything "as is"; the

>principle to "defend and fight" is put out of order. In unconditional

>surrender there is no suffering nor enjoying and there isn't any

bliss. It

>can be compared to a kind of "dark night of the soul" where one is

immersed

>is in a meaningless void where nothing matters in a literary sense.

>Unconditional surrender has always been related to dying, where one

also has

>to accept whatever happens. The classic is the Kathopanishad. Once I

made

>small post about what one can extract from history about death being

>incorporated in one's practice. If there is a rule to be extracted

from

>this, it is the following:

>Progress is determined by "what one can take / bear in surrender" and

this

>isn't something one can influence. It is easy to forget bliss isn't a

>constant; it is quite possible that going step by step results in more

>contentment than when things go without effort. The moral is, never to

>compare in this respect - taking things "as are" is a mark of

surrender -

>God knows what is "best" for us.

>

>Jan

Oh dear, I'm sorry, I didn't in any way mean to compare or imply one

way was better than another. Watching the multitude of ways in which

God rushes through people has been the great joy of my life and

probably had a lot to do with waking me up. If anything, I'm saying

let's hear MORE about what it could be like to realize Self instantly,

or gradually, or fitfully, or hungrily, or in complete innocence.

I only meant to point out that the Absolute draws us with such power,

both as a topic of this list and in our daily experience, that we may

forget to notice how our minute-to-minute struggle is also flooded with

the divine, and that this oversight may lead to some of the arguments

that, as Gloria noted, pull us out of the heart and into the head.

Holly

March 24, 1999

Thank you Laura. I find the 'joy' is when you deliver a message and it finds its

way back to you. It could be months, weeks, days, hours, or just within one post

as yours is. I read you loud and clear!

Regards.

Tim Harris

LTRIA wrote:

> LTRIA

>

> Good Morning Tim,

>

> I agree with you. We do not have the insight or the powers to see whether a

> person is "There" or "Not". I have questioned myself about this often. I

> fear sharing my loving thoughts sometimes, because I do not know where another

> person is truly coming from.

>

> It would take a great deal of energy to try to figure someone else out. It

> takes enough energy to be true with my own words and feelings. So I choose to

> "Not want to know." By trying to figure "Them" out, I put myself in

a place

> of being judgmental. That is not where I want to be.

>

> Instead I hope that true words and feelings from me will reach the part of

> them that is "There". And if not, they will be gone soon enough.

>

> Laura

>

> ------

> We have a new web site!

>

> Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services

--

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ICQ # 34365156

March 24, 1999

Laura,

Hi. Caught this on my lunch break.

Mind if I put in my ha'penny's worth? I too have that niggle sometimes

about other people's awareness. It is a bit like the "other minds" problem

in philosophy. Basically, how can we know whether another person (or

animal, for that matter) is conscious? What we experience of their

behaviour is our only (five-sense) means of guessing that they are

self-aware. Take that further, and you get that problem of good faith

versus bad faith. Take that further and it's "is this person at One?".

Like you say, what a lot of energy to figure someone else out! And against

what criteria? One's own belief system? The words they use? What they do

that you like/agree with/benefit from?

So I am left with the unavoidable conclusion that the Teacher is

*everywhere*! Whether the other person knows it or not (and to what extent

they know it...) they are part of the totality that we experience: if

experience them in our fullest Reality, we will learn what we need. If we

experience them at whatever "level" we are at, we will learn what is right

for our path. And if we can love them for that, we spread joy and healing.

Then it doesn't matter whether they are spiritual like us, or whatever. I

agree with Dharma's several emails, that the best guru is ~U~.

A friend of mine has spent three months in frustration and hard discipline

because of a scabies infestation where she works. She's had to rid herself

of the parasites several times, and it's a real chore. She told me (through

tears) that she has been working on finding the lesson the little blighters

are trying to teach her, and has been rewarded with the task of feeling

compassion for the parasites while she kills them. She has learned what

they mean for her, and perhaps for others, through accepting them as they

are, and as part of of this huge dance. My heart goes out to her. If it

feels real for her, then that is how I experience her reality. It may not

be mine, but that's OK.

So for me it simmers down to looking after my own awareness, and trusting

the big process. Keeps the heart open, which feels *nice*! I only protect

myself from the actions of those who threaten my existence, inadvertantly

or otherwise, and then I don't have to hate, just move aside or neutralise.

Lots of love

Rob

At 08:18 24/03/99 EST, you wrote:

>LTRIA

>

>Good Morning Tim,

>

>I agree with you. We do not have the insight or the powers to see whether a

>person is "There" or "Not". I have questioned myself about this often. I

>fear sharing my loving thoughts sometimes, because I do not know where

another

>person is truly coming from.

>

>It would take a great deal of energy to try to figure someone else out. It

>takes enough energy to be true with my own words and feelings. So I

choose to

>"Not want to know." By trying to figure "Them" out, I put myself in a place

>of being judgmental. That is not where I want to be.

>

>Instead I hope that true words and feelings from me will reach the part of

>them that is "There". And if not, they will be gone soon enough.

>

>Laura

>

>------

>We have a new web site!

>

>Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services

>

March 24, 1999

At 01:17 PM 3/24/99 -0000, you wrote:

>>>>

In unconditional surrender there is no one left to

complain about injustice or pains; one takes everything "as is"; the

principle to "defend and fight" is put out of order. In unconditional

surrender there is no suffering nor enjoying and there isn't any bliss. It

can be compared to a kind of "dark night of the soul" where one is immersed

is in a meaningless void where nothing matters in a literary sense.

<<<<

It sounds horrible. Why would anyone in their right mind want it? If THIS

is unconditional surrender, I think I'd rather be completely dominated by ego!

But I must simply disagree. This is not unconditional surrender. This is,

as you put it, death while living (or perhaps 'living hell' might be a

better description). Suffering, to me, sounds joyous compared to this kind

of numbness. I can think of no purpose for it, except perhaps as an escape

from some sort of unbearable suffering that cannot be escaped any other

way. You might disagree, JB, as is your prerogative. Know that

"surrender" is in actuality as many things as there are people on earth who

are surrendered.

>>>>

-----

The CORE of Reality awaits you at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html -

Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics.

March 24, 1999

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote:

>

> It sounds horrible. Why would anyone in their right mind want it? If THIS

> is unconditional surrender, I think I'd rather be completely dominated by ego!

>

> But I must simply disagree. This is not unconditional surrender. This is,

> as you put it, death while living (or perhaps 'living hell' might be a

> better description). Suffering, to me, sounds joyous compared to this kind

> of numbness. I can think of no purpose for it, except perhaps as an escape

> from some sort of unbearable suffering that cannot be escaped any other

> way. You might disagree, JB, as is your prerogative. Know that

> "surrender" is in actuality as many things as there are people on earth who

> are surrendered.

well, one comparison is to major surgery. one may need it, fear it, dread

it, and decide 'i can live without it' with a lesser sort of life than if

one had had it.

its not numb, its coming alive at the heart.

Chogyam trungpa speaks of a soft place in the heart. Ego sense that as

something to guard, something that can be hurt. But what that really is is

the connection of one to another. The soft place that knows about pain

also knows about joy. So one has to transcend *both*. Give up 'pleasure'

or ego-happiness for true happiness. give up sorrow or 'ego-clinging' for

things just as they are.

its in the phrase that came one morning doing meditation: Your tears are

in my eyes.

maitri,

--janpa

March 24, 1999

Dear Sam,

At 10:00 AM 3/24/99 PST, you wrote:

>"Ah Sam" <ah__sam

>May I throw in a question? Is the divine Self vast and deep enough to

>accommodate all?

The Divine Self *IS* All. You *ARE* the Divine Self, Sam.

>Or, is this a goal worthy to work on?

There are no goals to work on. Only allowing. Only letting the blinders

come off the eyes. Utterly effortless. If there's any effort involved,

it's only "clouding the glass" all the more.

With Love,

Tim

-----

The CORE of Reality awaits you at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html -

Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics.

March 24, 1999

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Ah Sam wrote:

> "Ah Sam" <ah__sam

>

> May I throw in a question? Is the divine Self vast and deep enough to

> accommodate all? Whatever there are? Or, is this a goal worthy to work

> on?

imo: if whatever is divine is not enuf to do that, it doesnt deserve that

title.

may all beings find happiness and peace

--janpa

March 24, 1999

Dharma wrote:

>

> I'll put in my vote right now. Tim has his second chance now. If he

> starts the same kind of abuse again, he should go.

>

> Let's make it a safe place for our fellowship... a safe place for people

> to talk, to gather in satsangh...

>

Gloria:

I agree he is in his second chance, but lets give him the benefit of

the doubt and not project that he can't observe and let go so that this

doesn't replay.

Love is the bottom line here, knowing Harsha as I do, lets bring that

love together so that rather then chase him out or put him down, we lift

him up. It is easy to assume the worst when this is work of spirit,

miracles happen at every turn.

>

> ------

> To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription

> to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and

> select the Member Center link from the menu bar on the left.

--

Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher.

Gloria Joy Greco

e-mail me at : lodpress and visit our homepages at:

http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

&

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/

Hope you enjoy them!

March 24, 1999

> Instead I hope that true words and feelings from me will reach the part of

> them that is "There". And if not, they will be gone soon enough.

>

> Laura

Maybe it's spring,

But i felt like saying it.

I like you Laura, your words are like a flower opening in the morning to

me.

Thank you,

Antoine

March 24, 1999

Antoine [carrea]

Tuesday, March 23, 1999 5:26 PM

Re: Thanks and Welcome back

Antoine <carrea

Hello Harsha, and list,

<< How about if I form a "Council of Elders" - perhaps 5-7 reasonable

people. Decisions about the list can then be made by consensus of this

group and decisive action for the benefit of the whole group can be

taken when appropriate. Jan is already one of the moderators of the

list. I can personally request others to see if they would be willing to

volunteer their time and efforts. If anyone has feedback on this idea,

please post it publicly on the list. Thanks.

Harsha >>

A story comes back to my mind that touched me, it's a wise man who

touched me deeply, when i was 18, that first told it to me.

It's about 4 peoples talking about shoes, at the entry of a Temple.

One says to the three other's:

"I take off my shoes here, but bring them with me in the Temple in a

bag, not to tempt the poor man, passing, from wanting to steal them. I

take away that temptation from him."

The other's says:

"I bring shoes of no values so i can leave them like others at the

entry of the Temple. In this way, they will not tempt anyone from

steeling them more than others, and i won't have have to worry about

having them stolen while i pray in the Temple".

The third one say's:

"I put my most magnificent shoes, and leave them with the others at the

entry. If they get stolen by someone, it's Gods will. I make myself the

most beautiful to God, He takes what he want's."

The fourth man say's

"All this time you where talking about your shoes, and why to bring them

or not, you have not seen all those people with no shoes, that passed

without looking at them even once, just wanting to go pray inside,

blinded by their faith."

I enjoy pretty much this story, it shows many side of myself.

Enjoy,

Antoine

Harsha: Thanks for that beautiful and lovely story Antoine. There is a

richness to your experience and it is conveyed easily in your words. We take

our shoes off and bow to you Antoine. The "Council of Elders" will

henceforth go barefoot. :--).

March 24, 1999

Hello Sam:

Since the 'Divine Self' is all........

For myself the realization of the Divine Self is the only thing worthwhile.

However, while the journey must be taken I have found that making 'it'. my

goal or striving for 'it' can be counter-productive The journey is in many

ways the actual point because the Divine Self is there with you on the

journey we just don't always know that. I have seen too many people

striving really hard actually wind up simply frustrated and sometimes

bitter. Life is always perfect no matter where one is on their path - might

as well enjoy the scenery on the way.

Namaste,

Linda

Ah Sam [ah__sam]

Wednesday, March 24, 1999 1:01 PM

Re: Thanks and Welcome back

"Ah Sam" <ah__sam