Abandoning the ego?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/19/1999 8:20:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kvy9 writes:

 

Jan: Thank you Harsha, this is a very enjoyable anecdote. It makes me wonder

why

it is found difficult to abandon ego. >> Snip.......

 

Harsha: Thanks for raising that fascinating point Jan. Perhaps it is difficult

to abandon the ego, because the attempt to abandon the ego itself is based on

egotism. Perhaps such attempts end up reinforcing the nonexistent phantom.

Ramana Maharshi pointed out that all spiritual practices ultimately fall short

as they presuppose the existence of mind. And with the mind in charge, there

are infinite possibilities of experience, all kinds of experiences, including

superconscious experiences. No doubt experiences can be wonderful and joyful

as well as painful. And yet where can any experience truly take us? Nowhere

without the Bridge of Grace. And the wise say that Grace is Always Here. And

Self is Grace. And there is nothing but That. Perhaps to See the Beauty One

has to Be the Beauty. Which is why your insights are always appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Hi Harsha,

>.... Perhaps it is difficult

>to abandon the ego, because the attempt to abandon the ego itself is based on

>egotism. Perhaps such attempts end up reinforcing the nonexistent phantom.

 

Yes... I liked what you said earlier:

>But when an aspirant sincerely enquires with intensity, Who is the "I"

>who conceptualizes all such things, only then introversion takes place.

>The feeling of "I" that everyone has naturally, is the clue to resolving

>the mystery of Existence. It leads to the Knowledge of the Self.

 

When you go inside to find out what you really are, and seek the source of

the "I," you are on a direct path to Brahman, the All...

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Linda,

 

>"Linda Callanan" <shastra

> Accepting and

>seeking happiness also means accepting and seeking suffering.

 

Of couse, one might ask, who is it that is accepting and seeking?

> If one has had a life of suffering the ego will seek that experience

because it is what it knows best.

 

Yes, this is, in a way, the basis of egoic reincarnation. The ego-self

continually attempts to return to uncompleted business in the past, those

melodrams unresoleved in child-hood and elsewhere (a little different reason

than that proposed above which I also agree with). Actually, the whole of

the ego-self is a disturbance and can actually never reach closure -- which

is the cause of its continuing unhappiness, ultimately. It suffers in the

seeking of happiness (never fulfilled) or in suffering (its familiar home).

The only thing it can really accept is its own limitation.

>

>To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion - does

the

>ego survive the death of our physical body?

 

By analogy, does the ego survive the transcendence of it? The transcendence

of the ego-self is like a death of this self to the self. But Consciousness,

being present, sees the ego-self. The ego survives, but not as the Center of

operations. This is a little like jumping from the consciousness of a

molecule to the consciousness of a cell. The molecule survives. Now in terms

of physical life and death, the particular physical form dissolves (like a

cell in a body) but the body (Soul in this case) does not die. On the Soul

level there is the realiztion that there is no death. But like the physical

transfer of dna of a cell, the karmic egoic transfer is made in the Soul's

next physical manifestation.

 

This is just an idea.

 

Maurice

[Guest guest]

> HarshaIMTM

>

> In a message dated 3/19/1999 8:20:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> kvy9 writes:

>

> Jan: Thank you Harsha, this is a very enjoyable anecdote. It

> makes me wonder

> why

> it is found difficult to abandon ego. >> Snip.......

>

> Harsha: Thanks for raising that fascinating point Jan. Perhaps it

> is difficult

> to abandon the ego, because the attempt to abandon the ego itself

> is based on

> egotism. Perhaps such attempts end up reinforcing the nonexistent phantom.

> Ramana Maharshi pointed out that all spiritual practices

> ultimately fall short

> as they presuppose the existence of mind. And with the mind in

> charge, there

> are infinite possibilities of experience, all kinds of

> experiences, including

> superconscious experiences. No doubt experiences can be wonderful

> and joyful

> as well as painful. And yet where can any experience truly take

> us? Nowhere

> without the Bridge of Grace. And the wise say that Grace is

> Always Here. And

> Self is Grace. And there is nothing but That. Perhaps to See the

> Beauty One

> has to Be the Beauty. Which is why your insights are always appreciated.

 

One of the properties of ego is to seek happiness. This is sought in the

various experiences. Either by a series of "bad" experiences or by the

insight that experiences don't bring happiness one can abandon the

pleasures. As the ego thrives on the repetition of pleasures and is quite

willing to invest pain for it, the insight that pleasures don't bring true

happiness is simple. For instance, the new house one is pride of becomes

worthless when a loved one dies; a loved one turns into a source of

unhappiness when one is betrayed by this loved one. So the insight that

experience isn't a source of true happiness is there and yet one doesn't

take the consequences. Instead, it is thought "bad things will happen to the

neighbors, not me". Because this "role model of being consequent" is

entirely lacking in society.

 

Jan

 

++ When a well known artist produces "shit" it is called a great work of art

in a new style.

When an unknown artist produces a great work of art in a new style it

is called "shit". ++

[Guest guest]

>But when an aspirant sincerely enquires with intensity, Who is the "I"

>who conceptualizes all such things, only then introversion takes place.

>The feeling of "I" that everyone has naturally, is the clue to resolving

>the mystery of Existence. It leads to the Knowledge of the Self.

>When you go inside to find out what you really are, and seek the source of

>the "I," you are on a direct path to Brahman, the All...

 

Once I heard someone say EGO = Edging God Out. I thought that was a simple

and efficient truth.

 

Linda

 

Love,

Dharma

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>One of the properties of ego is to seek happiness. This is sought in the

>various experiences. Either by a series of "bad" experiences or by the

i>nsight that experiences don't bring happiness one can abandon the

>pleasures. As the ego thrives on the repetition of pleasures and is quite

>willing to invest pain for it, the insight that pleasures don't bring true

>happiness is simple. For instance, the new house one is pride of becomes

>worthless when a loved one dies; a loved one turns into a source of

>unhappiness when one is betrayed by this loved one. So the insight that

>experience isn't a source of true happiness is there and yet one doesn't

>ake the consequences. Instead, it is thought "bad things will happen to the

>neighbors, not me". Because this "role model of being consequent" is

>entirely lacking in society.

 

Jan

 

A while back there was a discussion on suffering and the above point of the

ego seeking happiness brings up the old 'coin' analogy. Accepting and

seeking happiness also means accepting and seeking suffering. If one has

had a life of suffering the ego will seek that experience because it is what

it knows best.

 

To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion - does the

ego survive the death of our physical body?

 

Namaste,

Linda

 

++ When a well known artist produces "shit" it is called a great work of art

in a new style.

When an unknown artist produces a great work of art in a new style it

is called "shit". ++

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Linda,

>To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion - does the

>ego survive the death of our physical body?

 

There's more than one definition of "ego." I understand the basic ego as a

structure that is a necessary part of our apparatus for manifestating as a

human being.

 

With that (partial) definition in mind, I would say that your ego will not

survive your physical death... your body, emotions, intellect, and ego

will die... but you will survive. You will have no need of an ego until

you reincarnate.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Dharma,

 

I have pretty much d to what you say below as my understanding was

that the ego helps the physical body survive which would explain why we do

not want to destroy the ego rather we want to be 'in charge' of it. Knowing

that samskaras contain the impressions of the 3 levels of karma to be worked

through I was satisfied with the 'subtle body' being the magnetic field that

recorded or carried the karmic impressions. However, someone whom I respect

claimed that the ego indeed stays with us as we transition. This may just

be semantics - perhaps a bit of the ego attaches to the subtle body?

 

I have no definite belief on this issue which is why I posed the question.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Namaste,

Linda

 

 

Dharma <fisher1

 

Hi Linda,

>To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion - does

the

>ego survive the death of our physical body?

 

There's more than one definition of "ego." I understand the basic ego as a

structure that is a necessary part of our apparatus for manifestating as a

human being.

 

With that (partial) definition in mind, I would say that your ego will not

survive your physical death... your body, emotions, intellect, and ego

will die... but you will survive. You will have no need of an ego until

you reincarnate.

 

Love,

Dharma

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Linda,

>I have pretty much d to what you say below as my understanding was

>that the ego helps the physical body survive which would explain why we do

>not want to destroy the ego rather we want to be 'in charge' of it. Knowing

>that samskaras contain the impressions of the 3 levels of karma to be worked

>through I was satisfied with the 'subtle body' being the magnetic field that

>recorded or carried the karmic impressions. However, someone whom I respect

>claimed that the ego indeed stays with us as we transition. This may just

>be semantics - perhaps a bit of the ego attaches to the subtle body?

 

Well, I'm just thinking through some stuff about the ego myself. I want to

write and ask for some definitions of Sanskrit words...

 

Right now I'm thinking it looks like the ego is the "I-making" faculty.

That's necessary for us to function as individuals, as conscious humans.

Even people who have gone all the way can still function as individual

human beings. I suspect a person who lost that faculty entirely might even

be in a hospital bed with nurses feeding him and changing his diapers.

 

The ego that people want to get rid of seems to be a false construct made

of karmic stuff... maybe it's that "ego ideal" that Neumann talks about...

I want to read more about that.

 

As far as exactly how karma is carried into this life and gets in the

intellect and emotions and even body, I've read some different things about

that... and it's interesting... but I think it really isn't very

important. What's important is where this karma is now and what we can do

about it.

 

The karmic stuff has been called accumulated dirt and crud that hides the

basic ego... and there are methods to get at this karmic crap and clear it

away. It can be scary because it includes a lot of stuff you think is

you... but it turns out it really isn't. Just the "ego ideal," maybe...

 

I've been told that when the karmic crud is all (or pretty much all)

cleared away, the major centers look different to the clairvoyant eye -

they seem to be unified and are seen as a "blade" from which it's easier to

shake off new karmic stuff, which is always around, can even be picked up

from others... I've seen this blade myself, but that may just be a

symbolic way of understanding something... a symbol suggested to me by

what was told me... I've wondered whether the blade may be in fact the

cleaned-up ego... instrument of manifestation...

 

As for whether ego survives death... Imagine you are a ray of light coming

from the All, down through 7 planes or levels or states of consciousness (I

know some people have another model, but that one will do). And the

lowest three planes, from the bottom up, are the physical/etheric, the

emotional, and the mental (intellectual). Those are the personality

planes, where we're manifesting as human beings. Those three are gonna go

when our bodies and brains die. If the "I-making" faculty is, say, on the

high mental, then it's gonna go too. If it's higher than that... or if

it's part of something that extends into higher planes, then maybe it may

survive... depending on what plane(s) the person is going to be on after

death. If he returns into the All, then it certainly doesn't survive...

unless he's just gonna flash into the All and back out... after all, we do

that all the time... everything arises from the All... at each moment...

 

Sorry if this is confusing... I haven't got all the answers ))... just

thinking about some new ideas...

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

> "Linda Callanan" <shastra

[...]

> To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion

> - does the

> ego survive the death of our physical body?

>

> Namaste,

> Linda

 

When transfiguration is complete, the conditions to live are gone but the

body still is living. It means a body without passion, hunger, thirst, urge

to breathe etc. What remains is perennial bliss / absolute freedom which

doesn't depend on body or mind, even in a literal sense. So the question is

irrelevant for those, knowing their only birth-right as probably physical

death won't be noticed.

 

For those who don't know that right, ego still is a virtual unity that

depends on matter for its seeming manifestation. Which means only the root

tendencies (like the will to live and enjoy) survive the grave and will

cause incarnation. What is virtual doesn't survive as it never existed. The

loss of the former identification (with body, mind) doesn't go simultaneous

with the formation of a new one so there is a gap of "nothingness", no

matter how short, between successive incarnations.

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

At 11:18 PM 3/22/99 -0000, you wrote:

> "Linda Callanan" <shastra

>

> To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion

> - does the ego survive the death of our physical body?

 

I believe it does, at least in the "Unrealized." But try to find any

absolute proof, there is none, unfortunately. There are, however,

thousands of accounts of "near death experiences" throughout history, in

which the brainwaves were actually "flatline" for a time (no brain activity

whatsoever), and a person's body has been revived. People have reported

seeing things they could not possibly have known about while "dead," and

about retaining a "spirit-body" of sorts. So if there is delusion of ego

in "life," there is delusion of ego in "death."

 

So to me, the answer is absolutely - the ego is not tied to the meat of the

physical brain. Ego is a construct of mind, and mind is an imaginary

construct of Soul. As Soul is eternal, so everything connected with It is

as well.

 

Just "educated guessing,"

 

Tim

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> To shift gears a bit I have a question for whoever has an opinion

> - does the

> ego survive the death of our physical body?

>

> Namaste,

> Linda

>When transfiguration is complete, the conditions to live are gone but the

>body still is living. It means a body without passion, hunger, thirst, urge

>to breathe etc. What remains is perennial bliss / absolute freedom which

>doesn't depend on body or mind, even in a literal sense. So the question is

>irrelevant for those, knowing their only birth-right as probably physical

>death won't be noticed.

>For those who don't know that right, ego still is a virtual unity that

>depends on matter for its seeming manifestation. Which means only the root

>tendencies (like the will to live and enjoy) survive the grave and will

>cause incarnation. What is virtual doesn't survive as it never existed. The

>loss of the former identification (with body, mind) doesn't go

simultaneous

>with the formation of a new one so there is a gap of "nothingness", no

>matter how short, between successive incarnations.

 

Jan

 

Dear Jan:

 

Thanks for your response. Based upon what you say for those who are still

incarnating it seems as if the ego serves the new body which will serve the

soul. The tendencies that are deeply inherent (as in samskaras) will

determine the quality of the ego for the lifetime. This ego will actually

form in pattern with the body and circumstances of the new lifetime.

 

Linda

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