Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 tim's last post brought the q up: why do this unless you're suffering so badly its the only alternative? i think this brings up the subject of cause and effect nicely. or that nasty word 'karma' . Good things dont last, neither do bad. THat is the problem ! Good things are as temporary as firefly's lives by a streetlamp near a bathouse. | Debora A. Orf | | dorf01 | Don't accept your dog's admiration as | | conclusive evidence that you are wonderful. | | --Ann Landers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 At 11:35 AM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >Good things dont last, neither do bad. THat is the problem ! Honest question - why is that a problem? It seems to me that the essence of mental, emotional and SPIRITUAL health is "living life on life's terms," accepting both the good and the bad. But with Self-Realization, neither of these things has the capacity to injure anymore. The problem is with *attachment* to good and bad. If one cannot let go and flow with the moment, "good" is prolonged beyond the point it's supposed to be, thus becoming bad. And "bad" is prolonged as well, thus remaining bad for too long. My path is that of detachment. Neither good nor bad has the capacity to affect me in any way that I don't want it to. This is freedom. Perhaps we're all talking about the same things, but from a different angle. One may look at a mountain from one side, and it may appear an entirely different mountain than when viewed from another. But it's the same mountain. ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 11:35 AM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: > > >Good things dont last, neither do bad. THat is the problem ! > > Honest question - why is that a problem? It seems to me that the essence because we often desire then not to be such. that desire, instinctual to humanity, is an aspect of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 At 11:57 AM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >> Honest question - why is that a problem? It seems to me that the essence > >because we often desire then not to be such. That desire is fine, it's the *attachment* to such desire that is "no good ." >that desire, instinctual to humanity, is an aspect of the problem. Desire is not a problem, unless attached to it. You and JB can type until your fingers fall off, but you won't convince me that Brahman is not absolute bliss, but "void-death - dark night of the soul." You'll never convince me that Brahman is not absolute FULLNESS, rather than absolute emptiness. You won't convince me that Enlightenment is not being led ever more deeply INTO life, into mystery, rather than straight out of it and into some vacuous space, like living in a dark closet. Enlightenment is LIGHT shining in the soul, not darkness, not emptiness, not vacuousness. Brahman is eternal light, eternal bliss. In those that claim to be "totally surrendered" in the way you and JB describe, I sense a flat emotional affect, a lack of Love, a lack of joy, a mechanical style of living that is ANYTHING but Realization. This is anti-Realization. This is hiding in a space of joylessness, lovelessness, in order to avoid feeling. Just my perspective, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 tim you are so funny im buddhist, we dont talk about a big Brahman at all silly goose. however, some things are universal, as you yourself said i believe. thanx for the laugh tho --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > > You and JB can type until your fingers fall off, but you won't convince me > that Brahman is not absolute bliss, but "void-death - dark night of the > soul." You'll never convince me that Brahman is not absolute FULLNESS, > rather than absolute emptiness. You won't convince me that Enlightenment > is not being led ever more deeply INTO life, into mystery, rather than > straight out of it and into some vacuous space, like living in a dark > closet. Enlightenment is LIGHT shining in the soul, not darkness, not > emptiness, not vacuousness. Janpa: RTFLMAO. its not empty AND its not full. its also not not full and not not empty . (forgive me it was too funny, Madhyamika joke) > Brahman is eternal light, eternal bliss. In those that claim to be > "totally surrendered" in the way you and JB describe, I sense a flat > emotional affect, a lack of Love, a lack of joy, a mechanical style of > living that is ANYTHING but Realization. This is anti-Realization. This > is hiding in a space of joylessness, lovelessness, in order to avoid feeling. uh--when did i claim that ! and there is feeling. there's just no OWNER of the feeling ! get it? hehehehe --janpa the villiage idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > > tim's last post brought the q up: why do this unless you're suffering so > badly its the only alternative? > > i think this brings up the subject of cause and effect nicely. or that > nasty word 'karma' . Quite true; the combination of experience and insight can do the same. For some, suffering isn't required; it is quite possible to arrive at a conclusion from a different perspective. For instance, eating will turn into torture when one is forced to "enjoy" until vomiting. All pleasures are highly conditioned. Coming to the conclusion that, depending on conditions, pleasure and pain can be the same is quite worthwhile. > Good things dont last, neither do bad. THat is the problem ! Good things > are as temporary as firefly's lives by a streetlamp near a bathouse. It isn't a problem; without this ongoing roulette of "good" and bad" it would be next to impossible to realize that this roulette will at least mean suffering in the end, when there is no choice but "let go" and loose all. One moment of agony can destroy an entire life of "good things". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 11:57 AM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: > > >> Honest question - why is that a problem? It seems to me that > the essence > > > >because we often desire then not to be such. > > That desire is fine, it's the *attachment* to such desire that is "no good > ." > > >that desire, instinctual to humanity, is an aspect of the problem. > > Desire is not a problem, unless attached to it. But the very nature of desire is attachment... A detached one has no desires > You and JB can type until your fingers fall off, but you won't convince me > that Brahman is not absolute bliss, but "void-death - dark night of the > soul." You'll never convince me that Brahman is not absolute FULLNESS, > rather than absolute emptiness. The way you're putting it, fullness and emptiness constitute a duality - Brahman is without duality. You won't convince me that Enlightenment > is not being led ever more deeply INTO life, into mystery, rather than > straight out of it and into some vacuous space, like living in a dark > closet. Enlightenment is LIGHT shining in the soul, not darkness, not > emptiness, not vacuousness. You can't know this unless you're enlighted, but enlightened ones have no desires - the perennial bliss leaves nothing to be desired. > Brahman is eternal light, eternal bliss. In those that claim to be > "totally surrendered" in the way you and JB describe, I sense a flat > emotional affect, a lack of Love, a lack of joy, a mechanical style of > living that is ANYTHING but Realization. This is anti-Realization. This > is hiding in a space of joylessness, lovelessness, in order to > avoid feeling. > > Just my perspective, > > Tim Isn't this jumping to conclusions? Emotions have a beginning and an end; if enlightenment would be emotion of any kind it would be worthless. Surrender is an easy way to get rid of self. What remains can't be described; if it would be possible to do so it would be a concept. One of the secondary effects of this "real nature" is that one can't remember to ever have been different and this means all former "agonies" are erased from memory as if they never existed. There is no way from pleasure to causeless bliss; anyone will have to go through the pains of tearing away from self. Some will have a problem awakening K., others will experience blocks and there are those who meditate for years without having raised K. The story of Purohit Swami's K. awakening is rather instructive: "It is a terrifying experience when the Kundalinee is awakened. The first day the fire was kindled in me, I thought I was dying, the whole body was, as it were, on fire, mind was broken to pieces, the bones were being hammered, I did not understand what was happening. In three months, I drank gallons of milk and clarified butter, ate leaves of two nimba trees till they were left without a single leaf, searched everywhere for mudra leaves and devoured these insipid things. During that period, I could not sit in any posture, I could not stand, I used to lie down on my bed and repeat the name of Lord Dattatreya". In my case, Kundalini was the first "thing" in life I really enjoyed. Not knowing what was happening, how it would end and not being able to talk about it with anyone, made it, with all the side-effects, to the adventure of a lifetime. So one's perspective really matters; mine was that of a "dead one", someone who has consciously taken leave of life but missed the train. >From a different perspective, K. can be the ultimate horror... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 At 01:19 PM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > >tim you are so funny > >im buddhist, we dont talk about a big Brahman at all silly goose. Surely this is detracting from the actual topic at hand, but I'll play :-) "Brahman" is just a label for a Reality, surely you too talk about some kind of Universal Reality or Universal Truth... what's the Buddhist label for It? Christians call It "God The Father" Muslims call It "Allah" Vedantists call it "Brahman" Shaivists call It "ShivaShakti" Taoists call it "Tao" Forgive my ignorance of the Buddhist label. Whatever you call It though, you'll never convince me that It's empty, akin to the vacuum of space, the "lack of everything." Gee, what fun! Surely endless reincarnation is preferable to "nothingness?" ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 At 01:31 PM 3/24/99 -0600, you wrote: >and there is feeling. there's just no OWNER of the feeling ! get it? Yep. So, this experience is the same for everyone, eh? Everyone experiences this as "no-self" because your Buddhist beliefs say so? If "no-self" is "not present," there is no Realization? Hmmmmn... I question any "Realization" that excludes the possibility that the Experience/Perception of Realization in each "individual person" may be utterly different. ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 1999 Report Share Posted March 24, 1999 At 12:21 AM 3/25/99 -0000, you wrote: >One moment of agony can destroy an entire life of "good things". Could you provide an example? ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 Good Morning Debora & Tim, I see you both saying the same thing here. We are human and thus we feel emotions. So as not to put down what a perfect creation we are, I allow both feelings of disappointment, anger, expectation to be recognized, felt and then rid of. In this way the natural "me" or "ego" is allowed to exists but not rule. You say, ">Good things dont last, neither do bad. THat is the problem !" I say,"The emotion our ego presents doesn't last. That is the solution !" Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 >>janpa: >>tim you are so funny >> >>im buddhist, we dont talk about a big Brahman at all silly goose. > >Tim G: >Surely this is detracting from the actual topic at hand, but I'll play :-) > >"Brahman" is just a label for a Reality, surely you too talk about some >kind of Universal Reality or Universal Truth... what's the Buddhist label >for It? > >Christians call It "God The Father" Well, there you're into the Trinity... a better term for what we're talking about would be "the Godhead," I think... >Tim: >Taoists call it "Tao" "Tao" means "the Way." The first hymn or poem of the _Tao Te Ching_ says: > There are ways but the Way is uncharted; > There are names but not nature in words: > Nameless indeed is the source of creation, > But things have a mother and she has a name. > > The secret waits for the insight > Of eyes unclouded by longing; > Those who are bound by desire > See only the outward container. > > These two come paired but distinct > By their names. > Of all things profound, > Say that their pairing is deepest, > The gate to the root of the world. >Tim: >Forgive my ignorance of the Buddhist label. > >Whatever you call It though, you'll never convince me that It's empty, akin >to the vacuum of space, the "lack of everything." Gee, what fun! Surely >endless reincarnation is preferable to "nothingness?" Excerpted words of Jamgon Kongtrul from _Creation and Completion_: >All that is composite is impermanent, all that is corrupt is >suffering, >transcending misery, all phenomena are peace and emptiness - >these are the four seals that distinguish the genuine Buddhist view. >Mindfulness cannot grasp the nature of clear light - >this abstruse aspect, with movement and memory, that is difficult > to cut through, is mind. >With no object of cognizance, the nature of clear light is seen - >this radiant aspect abides like a candle. >It is said that awareness is empty of movement, unborn, and > liberated - >it is seeing the analogy, not just the words of emptiness. >Uncontrived reality does not need to be sustained continuously: >one incident recalled is sufficient,... >If you know your own nature, it is the knowledge of the one > thing that liberates all. >When your mental powers are weak, and maintaining without > focusing on something is difficult, >practice developing mindfulness in creation usage and other > techniques that are in keeping with your condition. > >In sustaining non-focusing, the mixing of basic space and > intrinsic awareness >is enhanced by mixing the source, mind, with the center of > space >or the depths of the ocean to illuminate mindfulness. >At that time awareness-emptiness without center or circumference > arises. >In the completely perfect sense, there is no meditation and > nothing to meditate on. >When mindfulness alone is enough, it is the peak of practice. >In the ultimate sense, even mindfulness itself does not exist. >When the basis of mindfulness is absolved in basic space we > speak of wisdom. >As when fuel is used up the fire is also extinguished, >when delusion is used up the remedy itself is eliminated. >It is not meditation, nor is it non-meditation. >Not being meditation, there is nothing at all to focus on, >and not being non-meditation, there can be no distraction. >Simply place the mind on the bare apprehension of the nature > of reality. >This is not a thought-object of the rational mind >because the absolute is beyond intellect and without reference > point. >If the intimate connection between thought and object is not > severed, >although you call it "uncontrived," it cannot reverse delusion. >Severing the inner perceiver and the external object >may be called self-arising self-liberating, but it is still duality. >When there is no antidote it is self-arising self-liberating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 > Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > At 12:21 AM 3/25/99 -0000, you wrote: > > >One moment of agony can destroy an entire life of "good things". > > Could you provide an example? Once, my brother reproached my father: "If only you had given your family the attention you have given your career" and the next day my brother was dead. The day after that, my father had to celebrate his jubilee and there was no way of canceling the ceremony. My father never recuperated from the blow; he was a broken man ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Christians call It "God The Father" > Muslims call It "Allah" > Vedantists call it "Brahman" > Shaivists call It "ShivaShakti" > Taoists call it "Tao" > > Forgive my ignorance of the Buddhist label. > > Whatever you call It though, you'll never convince me that It's empty, akin > to the vacuum of space, the "lack of everything." Gee, what fun! Surely > endless reincarnation is preferable to "nothingness?" in a moment of silliness and bliss i wrote the following.... -------------------------------- Phenemonon, vast as space, Dharmatu is your base! Arising and falling like the ocean's tide cycles, How could i have clung to your illusions of permanent changelessness? Even ME is part of this, Limitless in reality, Clinging to limit i wander in Samsara. So blind! so blind! as vast as space is the changeless base of primordial awareness. Smaller than the atoms of energy is the changeless base of primordial awareness. NOW is the buddha! NOW is the heartlight seen. there is nothing to do but be kind. My teacher's eyes are the sun shining, Golden as Shakyamuni's pure form. Like an image in a screen of a computer, if i pull the power, it is gone, such is phenomenal existence. so too am i. so is the hearts darkness, like the illusion of this image. Settle down into NOW and see what is true. There lies me, there lies you, Neither one of these is true! to my precious teacher whom i can never repay, with the mechanism of illusion-reality i offer to you clouds of Samantabhadra's offerings. Please confer your blessings! (if this doesnt make any sense, i wrote it in a moment of bliss.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 i went looking -------------- "Have you found Him?" she asked me, eyes aglaze with wonder and focused on her inward turnings. "i didnt know i should be looking..." i started. "You must find him...." she pleaded. "He will save you." She nodded most enthusiastically then walked on. Find who? i walked the street that buzzed with the rhythms of footsteps hurried in fear, joy, panic, bliss. Jabbering walls spoke of carpenters and nails, Forests and clouds. Leaning against a wall that was also the universe in its jabbering formation i mused "Find WHO?" "if i look in anyone's eyes, there i see my parents, sisters, cousins" the sunlight dimmed as evening rose. Painting the sky a darkening rainbow. Smiling, nodding i wasnt sure if i'd found anything at all, because everything was everywhere. Oak tree grew beside the baby carraige factory with the vines growing on the broken windowframes who am i looking for again? --janpa tsomo (at attempt at describing finding onesself, if you've seen it before, just say to yourself 'Janpa--i've seen that before!' imagine i go 'oh, sorry!' and then its ok right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 On Thu, 25 Mar 1999, jb wrote: > > It isn't a problem; without this ongoing roulette of "good" and bad" it > would be next to impossible to realize that this roulette will at least mean > suffering in the end, when there is no choice but "let go" and loose all. > One moment of agony can destroy an entire life of "good things". ah so! my parents found that one when my older sister was murdered. i felt her confusion at the time of death. i woke up and had my sister's voice in my head. confused. scared. i knew something was up, and i went downstairs to find my mother pacing. Short time later the police came to our door to collect my father to identify her body. my family never recovered from that. my parents ended up divorced and my father was eaten up with grief. For many years i had a knot of anger and rage against the machine of patriarchy. *but* despite all these horrible things in life. there is a place that is free from suffering, and it is engaging, alive, compassionate and wise. It knows both ends of life, the ups and the downs, and doesnt ignore either. but sometimes, to see it, you have to recognize suffering first. Been there done that. decided samsara sucks. And what is buddha's first noble truth? "Life is dukkha". like one can wonder how i ended up a buddhist. (grin) maitri, --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 >(if this doesnt make any sense, i wrote it in a moment of bliss.) It's beautiful! It's much more than sense... >"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 >-------------------------------- >Phenemonon, vast as space, >Dharmatu is your base! > >Arising and falling >like the ocean's tide cycles, > >How could i have clung >to your illusions of >permanent changelessness? > >Even ME is part of this, > >Limitless in reality, >Clinging to limit >i wander in Samsara. > >So blind! so blind! > >as vast as space is the >changeless base of primordial >awareness. > >Smaller than the atoms of energy >is the changeless base of primordial awareness. > >NOW is the buddha! >NOW is the heartlight seen. > >there is nothing to do but >be kind. > >My teacher's eyes are the sun >shining, >Golden as Shakyamuni's pure form. > >Like an image in a screen of a computer, >if i pull the power, it is gone, >such is phenomenal existence. > >so too am i. > >so is the hearts darkness, like the illusion >of this image. > >Settle down into NOW >and see what is true. > >There lies me, >there lies you, > >Neither one of these is true! > >to my precious teacher >whom i can never repay, >with the mechanism of >illusion-reality i offer to >you clouds of Samantabhadra's offerings. > >Please confer your blessings! > >(if this doesnt make any sense, i wrote it in a moment of bliss.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 1999 Report Share Posted March 25, 1999 > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 [...] > in a moment of silliness and bliss i wrote the following.... It isn't silly - it is spontaneous and beatiful > -------------------------------- > Phenemonon, vast as space, > Dharmatu is your base! > > Arising and falling > like the ocean's tide cycles, > > How could i have clung > to your illusions of > permanent changelessness? > > Even ME is part of this, > > Limitless in reality, > Clinging to limit > i wander in Samsara. > > So blind! so blind! > > as vast as space is the > changeless base of primordial > awareness. > > Smaller than the atoms of energy > is the changeless base of primordial awareness. > > NOW is the buddha! > NOW is the heartlight seen. > > there is nothing to do but > be kind. > > My teacher's eyes are the sun > shining, > Golden as Shakyamuni's pure form. > > Like an image in a screen of a computer, > if i pull the power, it is gone, > such is phenomenal existence. > > so too am i. > > so is the hearts darkness, like the illusion > of this image. > > Settle down into NOW > and see what is true. > > There lies me, > there lies you, > > Neither one of these is true! > > to my precious teacher > whom i can never repay, > with the mechanism of > illusion-reality i offer to > you clouds of Samantabhadra's offerings. > > Please confer your blessings! > > (if this doesnt make any sense, i wrote it in a moment of bliss.) > > > > > > ------ > We have a new web site! > > Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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