Introduction, and a question

[Guest guest]

I've been lurking here for a while, but I thought I'd better

introduce myself finally, especially as my usual excuse for lurking,

not having anything to say, doesn't apply; I have lots of questions!

My name is gill, and I've been completely fascinated by

spirituality and non-duality since, well, about last May actually.

Before then I was an angry atheist. (As in, 'if god does exist, I

wouldn't want to believe in him cos he screwed up so much!)

I also had a very severe bout of depression a few years ago, which I

don't intend to repeat; I reckon I've been as low as I can possibly

go, and now I want to see how high I can get!

My question is simple: what is the difference between judgement and

discernment? I try to be non-judgemental, simply because I'm happier

that way (my usual criteria for figuring out how to behave now!) and

also because I seems the 'right' (gosh, this is very dualistic) way

to act, but one has to make decisions now and then in life; people

talk about being discerning, or discriminating, rather than judging,

but I'm not altogether clear about what the difference is, and how

one knows which it is one's doing!

The only difference I can see, is if 'discernment' comes from the

heart and judging comes from the intellect or solar plexus or

whatever, but even then, how do I judge/discern where my feelings are

coming from? It all seems pretty subjective, if not completely

impossible to figure out... they could just be positively and

negatively biased words for the same thing, much as one person's

guerilla is the next person's freedom fighter, depending on whose

side you're on!

Sorry this got so long; I seem to be incapable of writing short posts

to lists, at least if I have a serious question! I feel the need to

put down all my thoughts as well as the question itself!

Those of you who read this far, thank you for your time and

attention,

gill

[Guest guest]

Greetings Gill,

 

<< My question is simple: what is the difference between judgment and

discernment? I try to be non-judgemental, simply because I'm happier

that way (my usual criteria for figuring out how to behave now!) and

also because I seems the 'right' (gosh, this is very dualistic) way to

act, but one has to make decisions now and then in life; people talk

about being discerning, or discriminating, rather than judging,

but I'm not altogether clear about what the difference is, and how one

knows which it is one's doing! >>

 

I love your question, to me those types of question are like the sound

of a bell, for some, that they follow into the "silence" in meditation.

 

Don't worry about the duality stuff also, we all use it on this list and

all the time, from my brief experience of this wonderful list. Like, for

example, the letters on this email are black on a white background so we

can discern the form of the letters form them to carry a "message". Some

do judge the letters that we all discerns and others do less. It's one

way i look at the difference between judgment and discernment.

 

But for me, deeply, the difference between judgment and discernment is

only one of degree, it's relative. Like the one made for ego and pain.

In your subjective/objective approach to it, judgment may be said to

touch more the subjective aspect of our being and discernment more the

objective part of it. But when the subjective and objective aspect come

to melt as one is there such a distinction left possible?

 

Some things do limit us, in our definition of who/what we are, in seeing

that there is an aspect of judgment left even in the most objective

discernment. But, in my opinion, we often forget that the only act of

perception and/or discernment "without" judgment is an act of creation.

 

If one perceives, one creates... And by choosing one mean of perception

over another, ones creates choices to allow the world to take one form

over the other. I.e., in quantum theory, they are coming to accept as a

law that the perception of time cannot be experienced without creating

matter, at least on quantum level of manifestation. This phenomena

described by them being reflected on the macroscopic level as

anti-gravity (what makes the universe as we know it "want" to expand).

 

All this to say that if i perceive time, i create, thus i judge. For i

could chose to create or not, perceive more time or not. Pay attention

more to the colors of the characters of my words on this email or not,

as i read it's content. Project ideas, or not, behind those words here

typed, that are not mine anymore but yours to let flow or not.

 

Their is a place where discernment or judgment have no more meaning, no

more than time and space.

 

<< The only difference I can see, is if 'discernment' comes from the

heart and judging comes from the intellect or solar plexus or whatever,

but even then, how do I judge/discern where my feelings are coming from?

It all seems pretty subjective, if not completely impossible to figure

out... they could just be positively and negatively biased words for the

same thing, much as one person's guerilla is the next person's freedom

fighter, depending on whose side you're on! >>

 

What if the feelings are coming from the same "place" than the sound of

the tibetan bell one follows into "Silence"? I wonder how my little

black letters on a white background can lead someone to the same

"place"... Maybe the only way is for me to take off my shoes

 

Enjoy,

Antoine

[Guest guest]

Hi Gill,

 

Welcome to the list. Regarding the difference between judgment and

discernment, my dictionary mentions both insight and judgment as connected

to discernment. But this isn't what is meant by non-judging. You mentioned

both the Heart and the mind; this leads to the issue of opinion. One might

consider opinion about an issue to consist of facts and interpretations; the

interpretations can have an emotional component. One cannot change facts

once they have happened but the interpretations can be changed always. So my

definition of non-judging would be to observe the facts "as are" without

interpretation; only when a decision has to be taken, one has to interpret.

As this interpretation is highly dependent on information, it isn't a

constant. If a disagreement exists between mind and Heart, as a rule the

decision isn't the right one.

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Jan, Bill and Antoine, for your answers to my question.

(and if I've missed anyone, I'm sorry, I've been flooded with email!)

 

Jan, you talk about facts v. opinions, but most of us subconsciously

decide which facts we're going to filter out (and we certainly can't

know all the facts about a situation anyway) so still the problem

arises, that it is impossible to be truly objective. But you also

added:

> only when a decision has to be taken, one has to interpret.

> As this interpretation is highly dependent on information, it isn't a

> constant. If a disagreement exists between mind and Heart, as a rule the

> decision isn't the right one.

 

and this makes a lot of sense to me; in the past I caused

myself a lot of problems by listening to my head instead of my

heart! And my head was being pretty judgemental, about myself as much

as anyone else. I think it's easier to tell when we're hurting

others than when we're hurting ourselves.

 

Bill, I totally agree with everything you said, especially that true

happiness comes from being non-judgemental.

 

Antoine, you showed a lot of insight into how I'm thinking here;

when you say that every little thing we do implies some kind of

'judgement'; though I'm interested that you say creation doesn't;

certainly when I'm writing poetry I have to decide which words are

'better' and I can be very critical of the finished work, so I'm not

too sure that I agree with you there! But sometimes, when it just

'flows', I'm not judging it as I'm doing it, and that's when it comes

out best!

 

Having thought about everything that you've all written, I'm starting

to think that for those of us who are not particularly enlightened

(or maybe just plain confused) it's simply a matter of looking at

the emotions which lie behind a decision and try to ensure that I'm

acting through love rather than anger or fear. And be completely

honest with myself about it, which is probably the hardest part (I'm

pretty good at fooling myself!) There's still the problem that most

of my decisions are unconscious, or things I do through habit

(otherwise I wouldn't be able to function!) but I can only work with

what I can see anyway... (which doesn't mean I shouldn't look a bit

harder in the darker areas!)

 

Enough for now (before my fingers drop off!) And I'll try to make my

posts a bit shorter in future; and btw I think I'd better mention

that my name is Gill, not Gil, and I'm female, but I'm used to having

these things confused over the net.

 

Gill

[Guest guest]

Hello again Gill,

 

 

<< Antoine, you showed a lot of insight into how I'm thinking here; when

you say that every little thing we do implies some kind of 'judgement';

though I'm interested that you say creation doesn't; certainly when I'm

writing poetry I have to decide which words are 'better' and I can be

very critical of the finished work, so I'm not too sure that I agree

with you there! But sometimes, when it just 'flows', I'm not judging it

as I'm doing it, and that's when it comes out best! >>

 

Your honesty, in telling that you don't agree when i say creation does

not imply judgment, touches me and maybe will help us to comuunicate

with words more, at least it helps my way of expressing myself in

english

 

I believe the "bug" comes from this paragraph i wrote, to fast:

 

"Some things do limit us, in our definition of who/what we are, in

seeing that there is an aspect of judgment left even in the most

objective discernment. But, in my opinion, we often forget that the only

act of perception and/or discernment "without" judgment is an act of

creation."

 

It would better express what i experience in this way, i believe:

 

"They are some things that limit us, - ("us", as an individual, being

our definition of who/what we are). Those things, that limit us, also

limit us in seeing that there is an aspect of judgment left even in the

most objective discernment. In my opinion, we often forget that the

simple act of perception and/or discernment is an act of creation."

 

And creation implies a choice thus judgment (Divine Judgment when we

look at all Creation)

 

When i wrote ""without" judgment" initially, it was a poor choice of

words from my part. I wanted to mean without the illusion of judgment

coming from the belief that we are separated in this world. In other

words, a more anthropological judgment in comparison to pure discernment

closer to the Divine Will or the simple flow of Creation that we are.

 

I believe, understand, that we try to say the same thing. At the very

least, you have given me the opportunity to correct my english. And i am

very grateful for that opportunity of learning to understand ourselves

on that level.

 

<< Having thought about everything that you've all written, I'm starting

to think that for those of us who are not particularly enlightened (or

maybe just plain confused) it's simply a matter of looking at the

emotions which lie behind a decision and try to ensure that I'm acting

through love rather than anger or fear. And be completely honest with

myself about it, which is probably the hardest part (I'm pretty good at

fooling myself!) There's still the problem that most of my decisions are

unconscious, or things I do through habit (otherwise I wouldn't be able

to function!) but I can only work with what I can see anyway... (which

doesn't mean I shouldn't look a bit harder in the darker areas!) >>

 

It's a nice remark that you bring Gill, saying : "for those of us who

are not particularly enlightened (or maybe just plain confused)". For

the more it goes, the more i have difficulty at finding something or

someone not enlightened or not confused. I really wonder what would and

did make me believe that such a thing does exist. Maybe my bad english

)) ***Big smile***

 

<< Enough for now (before my fingers drop off!) And I'll try to make my

posts a bit shorter in future; >>

 

Why?

 

<< and btw I think I'd better mention that my name is Gill, not Gil, and

I'm female, but I'm used to having these things confused over the net.

>>

 

I love the female and male in you,

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

> "Gill Collingwood" <Gill

>

> Thank you, Jan, Bill and Antoine, for your answers to my question.

> (and if I've missed anyone, I'm sorry, I've been flooded with email!)

>

> Jan, you talk about facts v. opinions, but most of us subconsciously

> decide which facts we're going to filter out (and we certainly can't

> know all the facts about a situation anyway) so still the problem

> arises, that it is impossible to be truly objective. But you also

> added:

>

> > only when a decision has to be taken, one has to interpret.

> > As this interpretation is highly dependent on information, it isn't a

> > constant. If a disagreement exists between mind and Heart, as a rule the

> > decision isn't the right one.

>

> and this makes a lot of sense to me; in the past I caused

> myself a lot of problems by listening to my head instead of my

> heart! And my head was being pretty judgemental, about myself as much

> as anyone else. I think it's easier to tell when we're hurting

> others than when we're hurting ourselves.

[...]

It isn't difficult to become aware of one's filters. If in a certain

situation one would be "pro", reason out what facts would be necessary to

change to "against". It is a rather amusing practice; instead of arguing

with an "opponent", questions are asked so the "opponent" has to explain

his/her view in a way that is making sense to you and not necessarily to the

"opponent". Quite often, this reveals gaps in thought in one's "pro" view,

revealing the filters for both views.

 

Jan