Guest guest Posted April 12, 1999 Report Share Posted April 12, 1999 At 10:06 AM 4/12/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hitler?? did he believe what he did was right and a good job, was he >sick? Everyone who is controlled by ego believes they are doing right, because if it benefits them in the way they like, they feel it is right. Beyond a certain point, ego becomes mental illness. Of course, Hitler was mentally ill. He doused himself with gasoline and committed suicide. I believe his mental illness was an ego problem, but others may disagree. >Was he like Ravana? or the Pharoah? I know we are all one and >actors on the scene etc, but how does this apply to evil like a >Milosevic?? Or is he and all the others just manifestations of out of control >egos. Many mental illnesses are caused by out of control egos. Especially illnesses like neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, depression, etc (the so called emotional disorders). These are ego problems, or at least originated as ego problems and became biochemical in nature later because they were sustained for so long. Milosevich has an ego-based mental disorder. He craves power to such an extent that he is willing to kill and disrupt hundreds of thousands of lives. Mentally, he seems sane when he talks. But his ego is running wild like a banshee inside his head. Inside his head, he feels that he is a god, and the rest of those under his rule are subject to his dictates. Just my opinions, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:49:51 -0700 Tim Gerchmez <fewtch writes: >Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > >At 10:06 AM 4/12/99 -0700, you wrote: > [snip] > >Many mental illnesses are caused by out of control egos. Especially >illnesses like neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, depression, >etc (the so called emotional disorders). Interesting theory, but one that virtually any experienced mental health professional would probably dispute. Of course, in one sense the vast majority of "egos" on the planet go unobserved and could therefore be said to be "out of control," so while there may not be any causality involved, there's virtually guaranteed universal coincidence! >These are ego problems, or at least >originated as ego problems and became biochemical in nature later >because they were sustained for so long. Now *this* theory is more creative, less interesting, and would very likely send any experienced mental health professional into paroxisms of laughter -- unless of course, it came from the lips of a patient, in which case it might be diagnostically useful. I think what you're saying here is that brain chemistry is permanently altered as the result of "ego problems," resulting in disorders like "neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, depression." I'm not discounting this possibility outright, but depression (an example I'm familiar with because it's occurred in my family) in the clinical sense is known to be the a result of excessive seratonin reuptake (chemical breakdown) in the brain -- that's why the most effective anti-depressants are known as SSRIs (Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors). Clinical depression occurs in children of pre-school age and appears to be inheritable, moreover it has been known for decades that talk therapy and meditative techniques are virtually useless in alleviating its symptoms -- one either develops strategies for living with it or treats it with pharmaceuticals. Before SSRIs, many serious cases of clinical depression responded to nothing except for electroconvulsive therapy (shock treatments). [snip] > >Just my opinions, > Yup. http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm m(_ _)m _ _________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 You wrote: > >Bruce Morgen <editor > >On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:49:51 -0700 Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >writes: >>Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >> >>At 10:06 AM 4/12/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >[snip] >> >>Many mental illnesses are caused by out of control egos. Especially >>illnesses like neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, depression, >>etc (the so called emotional disorders). > >Interesting theory, but >one that virtually any >experienced mental health >professional would probably >dispute. Of course, in one >sense the vast majority of >"egos" on the planet go >unobserved and could >therefore be said to be >"out of control," so while >there may not be any >causality involved, there's >virtually guaranteed >universal coincidence! HOLLY: Here's one who wouldn't dispute it. Out of control egos usually are working overtime because they are at some level perceiving threat. >>These are ego problems, or at least >>originated as ego problems and became biochemical in nature later >>because they were sustained for so long. > >Now *this* theory is more >creative, less interesting, >and would very likely send >any experienced mental >health professional into >paroxisms of laughter -- >unless of course, it came >from the lips of a patient, >in which case it might be >diagnostically useful. HOLLY: Nope, not laughing. I suspect all "psychological" activity has some brain biochemical counterpart -- even "cure," whether psychopharmacological, talk-therapeutic, "spiritual," or just life. I see no reason to doubt that Grace manifests in physical change, whatever the avenue, especially after going through kundalini awakening myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Bruce Morgen wrote: > >Tim Gerchmez <fewtch > > >Many mental illnesses are caused by out of control egos. Especially > >illnesses like neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, depression, > >etc (the so called emotional disorders). > > Interesting theory, but > one that virtually any > experienced mental health > professional would probably > dispute. He'd lose. You can make yourself panic through attitude. Panic depletes components (neural transmitters)of the neural transmission system. It consequently depresses the immune system and releases a whole barrage of stress chemicals and hormones. All this from one's perspective. Try it for 30 years and then let's see what you look like. : ) > >These are ego problems, or at least > >originated as ego problems and became biochemical in nature later > >because they were sustained for so long. > > Now *this* theory is more > creative, less interesting, > and would very likely send > any experienced mental > health professional into > paroxisms of laughter -- > unless of course, it came > from the lips of a patient, > in which case it might be > diagnostically useful. I saw a terminal man treated with a sugar pill cure himself with just the placebo effect. He shouted with exhilaration, "Meditation is medicine for the meditative mind!" The doctors were disappointed... oh well sigh (back to the drawing board) > I think what you're saying > here is that brain > chemistry is permanently > altered as the result of > "ego problems," resulting > in disorders like "neuroses, > panic attacks, anxiety > disorders, depression." I'm > not discounting this > possibility outright, but > depression (an example I'm > familiar with because it's > occurred in my family) in > the clinical sense is known > to be the a result of > excessive seratonin reuptake > (chemical breakdown) in the > brain -- that's why the most > effective anti-depressants > are known as SSRIs (Selective > Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors). That's an effect. What causes *that*? With most humans practicing a sedentary life style is enough to depress. Nutrition and lifestyle factors preclude the effect you mention. I've never met a depressed, exercising, healthy person who is nutritionally conscious. I've seen many severely/clinically depressed folk become balanced merely through dedication to a healthy lifestyle. (shocked?) > Clinical depression occurs in > children of pre-school age and > appears to be inheritable, > moreover it has been known for > decades that talk therapy and > meditative techniques are > virtually useless in > alleviating its symptoms -- one > either develops strategies for > living with it or treats it > with pharmaceuticals. Before > SSRIs, many serious cases of > clinical depression responded > to nothing except for > electroconvulsive therapy > (shock treatments). > We have to ask ourselves as a culture is clinical depression natural? Or course not. Then we need to ask what we are doing wrong as culture that's and causing depression to flourish? What if we paid deep loving attention to our children to let them know they are important. What if we taught them and each other by example that listening is more important than talking? If we do this and exercise and eat organic foods we can kiss the prozac pushers into the history pages for good. Join Us -Blessings- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:30:47 -0400 David Bozzi <david.bozzi writes: >Bruce Morgen wrote: > >> >Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >> >> >Many mental illnesses are caused by out of control egos. >Especially >> >illnesses like neuroses, panic attacks, anxiety disorders, >depression, >> >etc (the so called emotional disorders). >> >> Interesting theory, but >> one that virtually any >> experienced mental health >> professional would probably >> dispute. > >He'd lose. >You can make yourself panic through attitude. Agreed, but such self- induced panic is not the same as clincally defined "panic attacks." >Panic depletes components (neural transmitters)of the neural >transmission system. >It consequently depresses the immune system and releases a whole >barrage of stress >chemicals and hormones. All this from one's perspective. >Try it for 30 years and then let's see what you look like. : ) > The question at hand is whether "panic attacks" stem from "out of control ego." >> >These are ego problems, or at least >> >originated as ego problems and became biochemical in nature later >> >because they were sustained for so long. >> >> Now *this* theory is more >> creative, less interesting, >> and would very likely send >> any experienced mental >> health professional into >> paroxisms of laughter -- >> unless of course, it came >> from the lips of a patient, >> in which case it might be >> diagnostically useful. > >I saw a terminal man treated with a sugar pill >cure himself with just the placebo effect. >He shouted with exhilaration, >"Meditation is medicine for the meditative mind!" > Credible, but not relevant. I'm not doubting the miraculous aspect of placebo effect or of meditation. >The doctors were disappointed... >oh well >sigh >(back to the drawing board) > :-) >> I think what you're saying >> here is that brain >> chemistry is permanently >> altered as the result of >> "ego problems," resulting >> in disorders like "neuroses, >> panic attacks, anxiety >> disorders, depression." I'm >> not discounting this >> possibility outright, but >> depression (an example I'm >> familiar with because it's >> occurred in my family) in >> the clinical sense is known >> to be the a result of >> excessive seratonin reuptake >> (chemical breakdown) in the >> brain -- that's why the most >> effective anti-depressants >> are known as SSRIs (Selective >> Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors). > >That's an effect. What causes *that*? With most humans practicing a >sedentary >life style is enough to depress. Nutrition and lifestyle factors >preclude the effect you mention. Not universally, in my experience. >I've never met a depressed, exercising, healthy person who is >nutritionally conscious. I have -- a vegetarian in perfect physical health who was a swimming coach at a local college, a marathoner, and a dedicated customer of a Chinese herbalist. >I've seen many severely/clinically depressed folk become balanced >merely through >dedication to a healthy lifestyle. (shocked?) > No, at the lower edge of the range depression can respond significantly to an exercise regimen, a major change in diet, and/or herbal preparations. For severe depression -- fuhgdaboudit, the patient won't even be interested. >> Clinical depression occurs in >> children of pre-school age and >> appears to be inheritable, >> moreover it has been known for >> decades that talk therapy and >> meditative techniques are >> virtually useless in >> alleviating its symptoms -- one >> either develops strategies for >> living with it or treats it >> with pharmaceuticals. Before >> SSRIs, many serious cases of >> clinical depression responded >> to nothing except for >> electroconvulsive therapy >> (shock treatments). >> > >We have to ask ourselves as a culture is clinical depression natural? It seems to be for those genetically predisposed to it -- one can easily find people with identical lifestyles and overall health, one depressed and the other not. >Or course not. > A premature conclusion. >Then we need to ask what we are doing wrong as culture that's and >causing depression to flourish? Imho depression has always flourished, it has simply been hidden in shame -- *that* imho is the most tragic cultural factor involved, the treatment choice is secondary. >What if we paid deep loving attention to our children to let them know >they are important. > A good idea, but quite thoroughly discredited as a root cause of depression. This is a throwback to Freud's mistaken emphasis on nurture to the exculsion of nature. >What if we taught them and each other by example that listening is >more important than talking? > Another good idea, but imho it will not prevent clinical depression in those genetically predisposed to it. >If we do this and exercise and eat organic foods >we can kiss the prozac pushers into the history pages for good. > Wishful thinking, but no argument with the recommendations! I join you in deploring the overuse of pharmaceuticals, but you imho overestimate the efficacy of lifestyle factors in preventing depression -- and, since depressed people are (often severely) demotivated, inspiring lifestyle changes and waiting for the (often insignificant) improvement is simply impractical as therapy. >Join Us Who? >-Blessings- > Right back atcha! http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm m(_ _)m _ _________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Hi David, I am in agreement with you that exercise and diet can play a significant role in alleviating mood disorders. I may have all the terms wrong, biology was never my strong suit, but I believe exercise causes the release of norepernephrin (I know I have misspelled this) which helps with depressed mood. I have seen people depressed who exercised and were nutrition conscious. I would bet though that there is less depression among this group. What I wonder about is what causes the kind of thinking that is associated with psychiatric disorders. You mentioned panic disorders and I think even here a genetic predisposition may need to be considered. But even without this consideration, what causes the kind of thinking which leads to a panic attack? If I were guessing, I would say that it may be impossible to tease out the differences between nurture and nature and ultimately maybe it is both. Love, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 David, you brought up another interesting point about the effect of placebos. It isn't much different from the revival tent meetings. A change that is temporary in nature. I know of no placebos that have any lasting effect. Love, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 At 03:45 PM 4/13/99 -0400, you wrote: >Judy Walden <judyw > >I know of no placebos that have any lasting effect. Do you know of any "real" medications that have any lasting effect (without having to take more eventually)? Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Hi Tim, In answer to your question about medications being effective without having to increase the dosage. Yes, maintenance dosages of medication for psychiatric disorders can be effective without ever increasing the amount. Sometimes when there is a temporary exacerbation of symptoms the medication may be increased somewhat on a temporary basis, and as a rule the person returns to a maintenance dosage. Let me hasten to say that I am not a doctor and do not prescribe. It has been a part of my past work responsibilities to do an initial evaluation including mental status exams and to make a referral if medication needed to be considered and subsequently monitor for side effects of medication. This does not mean anything more than I have a 'little' knowledgeable. I certainly am no expert. Just offering my viewpoint. Love, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Bruce Morgen wrote: > but such self- > induced panic is not > the same as clincally > defined "panic attacks." Ok. > The question at hand is > whether "panic attacks" > stem from "out of control > ego." I offer that our mind state and perspective have a great deal to do with panic attacks whether they are 'clinically defined' attacks or not. Perhaps, the medical industry is inequipped to be aware that mind does play a role along with probably lifestyle as well. Try asking your MD about kundalini : ) > >I saw a terminal man treated with a sugar pill > >cure himself with just the placebo effect. > >He shouted with exhilaration, > >"Meditation is medicine for the meditative mind!" > > > Credible, but not relevant. > I'm not doubting the > miraculous aspect of > placebo effect or of > meditation. Of course not, then it wouldn't work. : ) I was raising the issue that mind is a factor. If mind can be an instrument in *healing* it can also injure. On the surface this should be more obvious to us since we are pretty much conditioned to use mind in a hurtful way. (plus I also wanted to spill a line of poetry) > >The doctors were disappointed... > >oh well > >sigh > >(back to the drawing board) > > > :-) > >That's an effect. What causes *that*? With most humans practicing a > >sedentary > >life style is enough to depress. Nutrition and lifestyle factors > >preclude the effect you mention. > > Not universally, in my > experience. Our experience is the same. > >I've never met a depressed, exercising, healthy person who is > >nutritionally conscious. > > I have -- a vegetarian > in perfect physical > health who was a swimming > coach at a local college, > a marathoner, and a > dedicated customer of a > Chinese herbalist. Could be overtraining. You know marathoning is actually unhealthy. Perhaps your friend knew, but most vegetarians often do not know how to supplement with the right protein and this issue becomes even more crucial for athletes. > No, at the lower edge of > the range depression can > respond significantly to > an exercise regimen, a > major change in diet, > and/or herbal preparations. > For severe depression -- > fuhgdaboudit, the patient > won't even be interested. Yes. If they need doping dope 'em *but* there's a lot of real work to be done on every level (physical/spiritual/emotional) whether you're a sliver of the folk with bad genes or the rest who are being urged by Life to become aware of balance on every level in every house. > >We have to ask ourselves as a culture is clinical depression natural? > > It seems to be for those > genetically predisposed > to it -- The percentage of these folk is small. But again, if I have bad genes all the more reason to become motivated for growth and change and transformation. There's always the soul level regardless of anyone's experience and one always has access to it regardless of how depressed. We are always pressed with a choice between awareness and illusion. Love/fear and so on... And through the deepest of depressions mystics have walked these hideous realms and dark nights working from this soul level and emerged. > one can easily > find people with identical > lifestyles and overall > health, one depressed and > the other not. Yes. Except my experience is that the healthier ones are generally happier. > >Or course not. > > > A premature conclusion. Happiness is our natural state. (premature or not) > Imho depression has always > flourished, it has simply > been hidden in shame -- > *that* imho is the most > tragic cultural factor > involved, Depression has flourished precisely *because* it's been hidden in shame. > the treatment > choice is secondary. With awareness and acceptance one will indeed know what to do. > >What if we paid deep loving attention to our children to let them know > >they are important. > > > A good idea, but quite > thoroughly discredited as a > root cause of depression. It's a factor. There are many. (there is one) > >What if we taught them and each other by example that listening is > >more important than talking? > > > Another good idea, but > imho it will not prevent > clinical depression in > those genetically > predisposed to it. It's okay. It can't hurt. > >If we do this and exercise and eat organic foods > >we can kiss the prozac pushers into the history pages for good. > > > Wishful thinking, but no > argument with the > recommendations! I join > you in deploring the > overuse of pharmaceuticals, > but you imho overestimate > the efficacy of lifestyle > factors in preventing > depression -- and, since > depressed people are > (often severely) > demotivated, inspiring > lifestyle changes and > waiting for the (often > insignificant) improvement > is simply impractical as > therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:43:31 -0400 Judy Walden <judyw writes: >Judy Walden <judyw > >Hi Tim, > >In answer to your question about medications being effective >without having to increase the dosage. Yes, maintenance >dosages of medication for psychiatric disorders can be >effective without ever increasing the amount. Sometimes >when there is a temporary exacerbation of symptoms the >medication may be increased somewhat on a temporary basis, >and as a rule the person returns to a maintenance dosage. > >Let me hasten to say that I am not a doctor and do not >prescribe. It has been a part of my past work >responsibilities to do an initial evaluation including >mental status exams and to make a referral if medication >needed to be considered and subsequently monitor for side >effects of medication. This does not mean anything more >than I have a 'little' knowledgeable. I certainly am no >expert. Just offering my viewpoint. > Whereas Tim claims expertise based on his avocational interest in pharmacology and experience with the system as a patient. Thanks for the helpful contast, Judy, and for the lesson in humility. http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm m(_ _)m _ _________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Judy Walden wrote: > I know of no placebos that have any lasting effect. You know this is so true. Every terminally ill person who has allowed themself to be cured by some type of grace still dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 1999 Report Share Posted April 13, 1999 Judy Walden wrote: > Judy Walden <judyw > > Hi David, > > I am in agreement with you that exercise and diet can play a > significant role in alleviating mood disorders. I may have > all the terms wrong, biology was never my strong suit, but I > believe exercise causes the release of norepernephrin (I > know I have misspelled this) which helps with depressed > mood. Nature is telling us is to move because sitting equals death and disease. All around neural health is benefitted by exercise. Lowers cholesterol, heart pressure, maintains hormonal health, also high intensity weight training is the only known way to *add* bone. I could go on about more effcient insulin metabolism, stronger immunity and so on... The point is all these factors have alot to do with how you feel. > I have seen people depressed who exercised and were > nutrition conscious. I would bet though that there is less > depression among this group. Among the healthy group? That's a safe bet. > What I wonder about is what causes the kind of thinking that > is associated with psychiatric disorders. You mentioned > panic disorders and I think even here a genetic > predisposition may need to be considered. But even without > this consideration, what causes the kind of thinking which > leads to a panic attack? Identification crisis. Fear. Association with primal ego emotions. Animal fear. Andreneline response to run... or attack! Past conditionings. People who've been victims of violence/rape. Ego can replay this. Belief! Watch yourself watch a suspensful movie. The effect of life's movie has a much more powerful effect. > If I were guessing, I would say that it may be impossible to > tease out the differences between nurture and nature and > ultimately maybe it is both. > > Love, > Judy > > ------ > Tired of empty chat rooms and out of date bulletin boards? > http://www.ONElist.com > ONElist: Making the Internet Intimate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 1999 Report Share Posted April 14, 1999 On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:12:56 -0400 David Bozzi <david.bozzi writes: >David Bozzi <david.bozzi > >Bruce Morgen wrote: > [snipped for brevity] Thanks, David, there is no significant divergence between our positions. Much love -- Bruce http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm m(_ _)m _ _________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 1999 Report Share Posted April 14, 1999 Hi David, I sure am not saying that miraculous cures do not occur and I certainly don't know how remissions come about. But when it comes to a cure from a 'sugar pill', I have never seen any research indicating anything but a temporary improvement measured in days. But it is fascinating, isn't it, how the mind controls so much the reactions of the body and vice versa. Love, Judy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 1999 Report Share Posted April 14, 1999 Judy Walden wrote: > I sure am not saying that miraculous cures do not occur yes...this one miracle of being has got to be the most amazing : ) > But it is fascinating, isn't it, how the mind controls so > much the reactions of the body and vice versa. Yes something to be aware of. in fact to not see mind/body/etc. as separate is healing. blessings > Love, > Judy > > ------ > Are you hogging all the fun? > http://www.ONElist.com > Friends tell friends about ONElist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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