Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 > "Phillip Burton" <p_burton > [...] > I do not believe in Karma. The important element of that statement is > "believe." It's the same for reincarnation. All of the traditional > explanations of these issues amount to "just words." I understand that > "Karma" is a concept about action and the fruits of action, about work and > it's result, about cause and effect. If one follows the word of > the Avatar > Krishna, one ceases to act in view of possible results, and > therefore Karma > loses its sting. There is simply action, in which actor, act, and > consequence are one. One can have endless discussions about "what is the difference between the belief that something exists and the belief that something doesn't exists". To my knowledge, belief is always belief, no matter the object. For both karma and reincarnation it is possible to get experiential knowledge and for those, having obtained that knowledge, having verified if it makes sense, karma and reincarnation are as real as observing the ocean - it boils down to perception of phenomena and their interpretation in such a way that it makes sense so that some rules can be distilled out of it. > When an emergency situation prevails, do you stop to consider the > doctrines > and explanations of Karma? Or do you just act adequately to the need of > the moment, without thought of reward? The explanations arise when people > have too much time on their hands. If one's life is considered a soccer match, karma is one's condition to start the game, with eventual effects from injuries, received in previous games. Thinking of the injuries would result in playing without being fully concentrated on the game so it wouldn't be beneficial. > > "Belief" is totally irrelevant. One believes when one has ulterior > motives. Motiveless, (n)one flows with Life, and the necessary work is > done by Life. > > > ... Phil ... Most beliefs are implicit or unconscious. For instance, with married persons, one of the beliefs is in the partner (the motive is staying together, eventually "for the sake of the kids"). Having had some experience with de-traumatizing abandoned dogs, supplying food while ignoring the dog is what restores faith (belief of "goodness") in man. Instead of belief, why not abandon it and substitute it for something like "probability" that can be expressed in a percentage Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 > "Linda Callanan" <shastra > > Hi Phil: > > I'm curious what do you believe determines the 'necessary work' that is done > by Life? > > Linda > Linda, Is there something external to Life which determines life? There is difference between presence of mind and being lost in abstraction. In presence of mind there is not projection and anxiety. In traditional explanations of Karma there is a sense that there are good and bad Karma. Are not "good and bad" just dualism? Karma just means action is woven together with consequence. The only way to understand that is dispassionately. I said I did not believe in it: I do not disbelieve in it either. One does not need to believe in a self-evident fact: it is just known. Also, it is a little pathetic when there is a use of (basically esoteric) concepts to put "others" in their place. I have actually run across people in this country who relate to others that way: so and so has "bad karma" so there is no point in helping out. Sort of a New Age Fascism. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 > Hi Phil: > > I'm curious what do you believe determines the 'necessary work' that is done > by Life? > > Linda > Linda, >Is there something external to Life which determines life? There is >difference between presence of mind and being lost in abstraction. In >presence of mind there is not projection and anxiety. In traditional >explanations of Karma there is a sense that there are good and bad Karma. >Are not "good and bad" just dualism? Karma just means action is woven >together with consequence. The only way to understand that is >dispassionately. I said I did not believe in it: I do not disbelieve in it >either. One does not need to believe in a self-evident fact: it is just >known. >Also, it is a little pathetic when there is a use of (basically esoteric) >concepts to put "others" in their place. I have actually run across people >in this country who relate to others that way: so and so has "bad karma" so >there is no point in helping out. Sort of a New Age Fascism. >Phil Hi Phil: New Age Fascism - I like that a lot - it brings to mind that many use the term karma in the same way as 'sin' and punishment/reward. Something keeps us tied to the physical wheel of life, something that keeps us from knowing our true state of perfect spirit. I simply think that defining it as the karmic impressions is as good as any other term. And for myself it is those impressions that life works on to get us to the truth. One can't base a belief system around it because like the air we breathe the work that life does just is - some call it karma, others have a different name for it and others don't think of it at all - they just think they are lucky or unlucky. Linda ------ Tired of empty chat rooms and out of date bulletin boards? http://www.ONElist.com ONElist: Making the Internet Intimate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 Hi Phil, You are quite right, one does not have to believe in karma. Lord Krishna spends chapters 2 and 3 talking about nothing but karma and the freeing effect of karma yoga. Belief or disbelief, it doesn't matter. Concentrate on the thoughtless state, on putting the mind to rest. Concentrate on God Shiva. Concentrate. Don't reject sense objects, reject desire for sense objects. As for belief, one does not have to believe in a large rock to be hit in the head with one. It will operate independant of beilief. Where there is mind, there is Karma. Karma is the perception of good and bad acts, the perceptions on the subtle level that are carried as part of the subtle mind from here to there, from one form to another. As long as there is re-birth, there is karma. The antahkarana or psychic apparatus is the playing ground of karma. Karma is not good or bad acts. Karma is the perception of good and bad acts. Karma is the limitations brought about by identification with the mind. Karma is reaction to events stored in the san chitta. Karma's dissoultion begins with non-doership and desirelessness of fruits of action. When the mind is trancended in deed, not words, karma dissolves. Words are the playing ground of Matrka, the confounding power of particularity inherant in words. One can never escape the karma of the body until leaving the body for all time. Much Light M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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