Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 On Tue, 4 May 1999 20:58:11 jb wrote: >It is rather common indeed and it can be met as follows: first, >understanding that one's 'real nature' is independent of all states, >including waking, dreaming and deep, dreamless sleep. Then one can come to >the understanding, that everything that arouses resistance, dislike etc., is >part of a veil called (learned) interpretation. Instead of becoming a vessel >on the waves of emotions, one becomes aware of their arising. Which is done by taking one step back and remain watching... >This isn't possible so well in seclusion. Because there are less chances to observe negatively flavored experiences in seclusion ? >Thus, being engaged in daily life becomes >meditation itself. The exception can be work, requiring full attention; in >that case, there is the union of worker and work being >done. This is something for me to contemplate. I have experienced the bliss state continuosly for days while being engaged in very hard, physical work requiring constant attention (military maneuver). Because my activities are different now, the feeling of bliss waxes and wanes throughout the day. >If one knows the pitfalls, there is nothing against enjoying bliss. However, >one should ask oneself, what is the value of bliss so conditioned, that it >can only be experienced in retreat? A good question. Another one for me to ponder on. Is this bliss the same talked about in Zen teachings about the meditative quality of all everyday activities ? >No, I consider kriyas to be preparatory. If the channels are cleaned, the >mind is pure, one's motives sincere, Kundalini will rise as an almost >invisible, powerful hydrogen-flame; the heat will be immense and one only >notices the piercing of knots. Under these conditions, the 'ride with >Kundalini' is a great joy. What a beautiful description ! I have experienced the hydrogen flame, but only for a few minutes each time. It feels like a very broad column of heat rising up from the lower chakras. When it reaches the head it feels as dancing in the middle of a flame, or in a hot air vent. It is fantastic ! As soon as I start focusing on the feeling or questioning it, it retreats. There is no immense heat, however, only a warmth and a feeling of being clean afterwards. There was also a feeling of loss, but not exactly mournful.. more good riddance. I think there is no immense heat nor very many problems with K so far because not much comes through. These days K makes me do exercises to strengthen some parts of the body, most notably the belly and back. I'm always in complete bliss those times and being guided by K all the way, even though I've never done any yoga at all. It goes on for hours but it is always joyful. Never do anything which feels painful. I/We can do a lot more in bliss than in low energy state, more strength exercises. Today I felt a small fraction of the hydrogen flame during a squatting exercise. I went with the feeling and stayed in every motion that brought out the feeling of energy moving or more easily passing. I do believe I'm doing things right as more energy seems to come out for each day that passes. I know every path is different and everyone experiences K differently, but I'd or rather, my ego would like to know: Is it common to get exercised "by" K this way ? >I would define a non-meditator as one who has done what has to be done: >cleaned the channels, attained a pure and unwavering mind, rising Kundalini. >This is the 'formula for success'; one's activities won't get in the way - >it is my experience. The very thought that filling the day with meditation >could 'improve' things is a serious impediment On the other hand, I once >read in a book by swami Sivananda something like : "Although Sri Aurobindo >advocates to realize amidst society, he himself remained in a locked room >for twenty years" )) >so it is always important to know if something is based on experience. That is a good advice. Thank you very much. >The big improvement comes when daily life has become practice of meditation. >The way one is experiencing and interpreting experiences depends on oneself; >thus, daily life can provide a direct feedback. What seemed to be an >obstacle first, becomes a means for progress, when understood. This is good to hear and very inspiring. Even before K made its presence more announced, I noticed all activities were better when being inside oneself, aware and unaware of mental processes at the same time, but always in balance. I still strive for that feeling. Being oneself, so to speak. >A little reality check first. Suppose, you suddenly hear a child, screaming >in agony. What would happen to the bliss and what would you do? Something like that happened the other day. A pedigree cat (they're usually rather helpless on their own) was sitting in the middle of the road and all cars had stopped for red light. At first I didn't notice the cat, but then I thought I had to help it. The bliss both receded and became more focused (maybe just more subtle or shifting gear) and helped me grab the cat and get out of the way before the light changed to green. >The >perennial bliss is what one is looking for. It is without beginning or end, >independent of activity. Still looking and still watching. Thanks again. Best regards, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 Dear Friends; > >>It is rather common indeed and it can be met as follows: first, >>understanding that one's 'real nature' is independent of all states, >>including waking, dreaming and deep, dreamless sleep. I must take the rather unpopular view of completely disagreeing with the assertion in this perspective. It is not possible, in my view, to support the above statement--either by experience or by rational argument. If one believes that one can somehow 'get out of consciousness' and into some other 'absolutely indepedendent--state... condition... essence' , etc., then I will assert that a fundamental misunderstanding has occurred regarding the nature of what is possible and not-possible to any and all beings. The above writer bears the burden of somehow communicating precisely how it is possible to leave one state and get into another 'non-state.' Or, how it is possible for human beings to belong to a 'non-state' and yet experience all experiences within the state of being generally referred to as consciousness. That a 'transpersonal' or transcendental experience can be had I also believe. However, one cannot 'get out of' anything. Consciousness is One. One cannot reasonably support the proposition that one 'state' of consciousness is qualitatively exclusive of another. In my view, the propogation of such a view can lead to a real misunderstanding of mystical experience, awakening and Enlightenment. Madhya Nandi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > "Amanda Erhart" <mumblecat > > > On Tue, 4 May 1999 20:58:11 jb wrote: > > >It is rather common indeed and it can be met as follows: first, > >understanding that one's 'real nature' is independent of all states, > >including waking, dreaming and deep, dreamless sleep. Then one > can come to > >the understanding, that everything that arouses resistance, > dislike etc., is > >part of a veil called (learned) interpretation. Instead of > becoming a vessel > >on the waves of emotions, one becomes aware of their arising. > > Which is done by taking one step back and remain > watching... > > >This isn't possible so well in seclusion. > > Because there are less chances to observe > negatively flavored experiences > in seclusion ? Exactly. Also, the changes from negative to positive and vice versa are missing. [...] > I have experienced the bliss state continuosly for > days while being engaged in very hard, physical work > requiring constant attention (military maneuver). > Because my activities are different now, the > feeling of bliss waxes and wanes throughout the day. Then it won't come as a surprise that in many European monasteries there has been a tradition of hard labor [...] > Is this bliss the same talked about in Zen teachings > about the meditative quality of all everyday > activities ? Tim and Janpa answered this very well. Kundalini and bliss are non-issues in Zen, although some time ago I came across a variant of Zen that was dealing with energy (prana). [...] > As soon as I start focusing > on the feeling or questioning it, it retreats. > There is no immense heat, however, only a warmth > and a feeling of being clean afterwards. There was > also a feeling of loss, but not exactly mournful.. > more good riddance. The feeling of loss is unavoidable, unless one is enlightened before becoming conscious of K. It isn't a "real" loss though. Nonduality is about loosing the "me". It only seems a loss; actually, it is a great gain Compare it to loosing a heavy rucksack of water while walking alongside a crystal clear mountain stream... > I think there is no immense heat nor > very many problems with K so > far because not much comes through. > > These days K makes me do exercises to strengthen > some parts of the body, most notably the belly and > back. I'm always in complete bliss those times and > being guided by K all the way, even though I've never > done any yoga at all. It goes on for hours but it is > always joyful. Never do anything which feels painful. > I/We can do a lot more in bliss than in low energy > state, more strength exercises. Although one can't increase one's share of life force, one sure can dim it. K. herself will often aid in obtaining a healthy body. The inclusion of Hatha Yoga into Raja Yoga is for this reason. However, any thing from aerobics to running will do as well, unless it is done at a level of competition. [...] > > I know every path is different and everyone experiences > K differently, but I'd or rather, my ego would like > to know: Is it common to get exercised "by" K this way ? It is one of the best things I know; it is surrender. [...] > >so it is always important to know if something is based on experience. Yes. The investigating mind always plays an important role. If in doubt, always ask if it is someone's experience, insight or opinion. If this is practiced on one's own "output" as well, it is surprising how "empty" the mind becomes. Jan [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > "Madhya Nandi" <madhya > > > Dear Friends; > > > > > > > >>It is rather common indeed and it can be met as follows: first, > >>understanding that one's 'real nature' is independent of all states, > >>including waking, dreaming and deep, dreamless sleep. > > I must take the rather unpopular view of completely disagreeing with the > assertion in this perspective. It is not possible, in my view, to support > the above statement--either by experience or by rational argument. But it is. Anyone familiar with nirvikalpa samadhi will know it doesn't come out of the blue - consciousness could be said to be layered with nirvikalpa samadhi as the kernel or center. If one > believes that one can somehow 'get out of consciousness' and into > some other > 'absolutely independent--state... condition... essence' , etc., then I > will assert that a fundamental misunderstanding has occurred regarding the > nature of what is possible and not-possible to any and all beings. Where was something said about getting out of consciousness? The > above writer bears the burden of somehow communicating precisely how it is > possible to leave one state and get into another 'non-state.' For starters, who can possibly call turiata a state or non-state? How easy is it to get trapped into states and non-states and not to see that something, expressed in terms of opposites can't be one's 'real nature'... > Or, how it is > possible for human beings to belong to a 'non-state' and yet > experience all > experiences within the state of being generally referred to as > consciousness. If consciousness is called a state, it can't be real either > > That a 'transpersonal' or transcendental experience can be had I also > believe. However, one cannot 'get out of' anything. All experience is dual in nature; it requires subject and object. Getting out of presupposes the existence of getting into. > Consciousness is One. > One cannot reasonably support the proposition that one 'state' of > consciousness is qualitatively exclusive of another. In my view, the > propogation of such a view can lead to a real misunderstanding of mystical > experience, awakening and Enlightenment. > > > Madhya Nandi Misunderstanding a view and taking the wrong conclusions comes easy where nonduality is concerned. Turiata is neither a state nor a non-state. But perhaps 'nirvana without substratum remaining' is a more familiar term BTW, if as you state, enlightenment can be misunderstood, prove to us that it can be understood Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 On Thu, 6 May 1999 00:44:51 Jan wrote: >Although one can't increase one's share of life force, I believe one can. But since it is in the realm of my "beliefs" it is useless to discuss it. >one sure can dim it. >K. herself will often aid in obtaining a healthy body. The inclusion of >Hatha Yoga into Raja Yoga is for this reason. However, any thing from >aerobics to running will do as well, unless it is done at a level of >competition. >From my experience the difference between hatha yoga and any other form of exercise is exactly the same as between normal breathing (even deep) and pranayama. Both hatha yoga and pranayama are the forms of work with energy (prana). Might be difficult to spot the difference for the one who has already all the body's work done (I do not mean only physical body here). One also needs a good teacher, can't be done from books, IMO. Liliana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 >"Liliana Pechal" <lpechal > > >Re: Digest Number 146, reply to jb >Fri, 07 May 1999 07:29:34 PDT > >"Liliana Pechal" <lpechal > > >On Thu, 6 May 1999 00:44:51 Jan wrote: > >>Although one can't increase one's share of life force, > >I believe one can. But since it is in the realm of my "beliefs" it is >useless to discuss it. > The Chinese have discussed it for centuries. They differentiate between prenatal chi, grain chi from food, breath chi and eventually one can tie into the eight different types of shakti. Tamra _____________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 > "Liliana Pechal" <lpechal > > > On Thu, 6 May 1999 00:44:51 Jan wrote: > > >Although one can't increase one's share of life force, > > I believe one can. But since it is in the realm of my "beliefs" it is > useless to discuss it. Between a dead body and one with abundant health are the many possibilities of non-optimum health. In a dead body, the share of life force is nil and in one with abundant health, it is maximal. There is no increase beyond that. One can temporarily "charge" some extra prana with pranayama but unless it is used directly (piercing knots etc.) it fill flow away. So one can only increase from the perspective of non-optimum health but who would be interested in a less than optimal health? Of course the above implies being an urdhva reta too. > >one sure can dim it. > >K. herself will often aid in obtaining a healthy body. The inclusion of > >Hatha Yoga into Raja Yoga is for this reason. However, any thing from > >aerobics to running will do as well, unless it is done at a level of > >competition. > > >From my experience the difference between hatha yoga and any > other form of > exercise is exactly the same as between normal breathing (even deep) and > pranayama. Both hatha yoga and pranayama are the forms of work > with energy > (prana). Might be difficult to spot the difference for the one who has > already all the body's work done (I do not mean only physical body here). > One also needs a good teacher, can't be done from books, IMO. > > Liliana Anyone who is able to sense or otherwise observe the flow of prana through the nadis will detect the proper moment for the practice of pranayama. It can give sufficient "extra" to break through a barrier. The main "power source" comes from being an urdhva reta - there's no alternative for that. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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