Guest guest Posted May 6, 1999 Report Share Posted May 6, 1999 Message: 22 Wed, 5 May 1999 20:03:17 -0500 (CDT) hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) Re: to transcend or not to transcend...et cetera << As for transcendent experiences happening to people, I've been wondering for awhile about subtle differences I think I detect between the spiritual biographies of men and women. I wasn't sure if I was just projecting my own experiences as I read -- the transcendent experience is supposed to be beyond gender, right? But after reading your post I'm thinking about this again, whether the personhood (including the cultural conditioning), especially in a written account, can be totally bypassed. As a seeker this has meaning to me because when I try to leap out of my femaleness prematurely I get into trouble. Holly >> I like your reflections Holly, In some states of being to the world, i am just amazed at how i can go into society, and every one i will cross or exchange with, will have absolutely no feel of gender to me. Looking at a woman or a man or an ant, or anything i see absolutely no difference in gender or culture or race or else, even if the forms, typical to one's gender or the other, are there to distinguish us and polarize us in such beautiful ways. I simply see and am all the same stuff looking at itself in a playground of forms, and even forms, at some point, seem to come to lose all meaning. Sexuality is a parallel superficial thing then, like the color of one's hair one may chose one day. Discrimination from cutting one self apart, from Self in another opposite or different self, seems to vanish (in the words of Sylvia Brinton Perera). Consciousness is not "embody" based then upon cutting apart, separation and standing adversary, but consciousness is felt as empathy and mirroring. In other words, empathy comes to replace inflation as a process of identification. Is feeling sexuality, or polarities, nothing else than an inflation process? Curious, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 1999 Report Share Posted May 6, 1999 You wrote: > >I like your reflections Holly, > >In some states of being to the world, i am just amazed at how i can go >into society, and every one i will cross or exchange with, will have >absolutely no feel of gender to me. Looking at a woman or a man or an >ant, or anything i see absolutely no difference in gender or culture or >race or else, even if the forms, typical to one's gender or the other, >are there to distinguish us and polarize us in such beautiful ways. I >simply see and am all the same stuff looking at itself in a playground >of forms, and even forms, at some point, seem to come to lose all >meaning. Sexuality is a parallel superficial thing then, like the color >of one's hair one may chose one day. Discrimination from cutting one >self apart, from Self in another opposite or different self, seems to >vanish (in the words of Sylvia Brinton Perera). Consciousness is not >"embody" based then upon cutting apart, separation and standing >adversary, but consciousness is felt as empathy and mirroring. In other >words, empathy comes to replace inflation as a process of >identification. > Thank you for your observations, Antoine, I can well imagine that your experience is beyond polarity of any kind! When I went to graduate school in the early 70's and first read psychological studies in depth, it became obvious that the entire construct of psychological "normality" was based on the personalities of male caucasian college students (you probably know this from your parents being psychiatrists). At the time, there was no literature that described the way I thought, felt or perceived life. I occasionally have this same sensation reading spiritual literature, although the full experience of non-duality is obviously beyond gender. Since I am not permanently established in bliss, I still sometimes appreciate the validation that can come through stories of others who have awakened. I wish there were more stories written by Mrs. Ramakrishna, Mrs. Gandhi, Mrs. Gopi Krishna -- their husbands revered these women but I know nothing about them. I wish I were beyond gender, too, but I'm not and when I try to ignore this aspect of my experience I lose balance in rejecting what is. Happily, I've found stories new to me on Jerry's website, like Bernadette Roberts and Suzanne Segal. I got Jean Klein's book but he turned out to be a guy! No matter, it's a fine book. Love, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 This thread reminds me of something i had proposed before, and would like to propose again, would like to write a poetic story along the lines of the story of Sudhana in the Avatamsaka Sutra, but from the point of view of a female figure. --janpa | Debora A. Orf | | dorf01 | "You are what you think" --Buddha | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > This thread reminds me of something i had proposed before, and would like > to propose again, > > would like to write a poetic story along the lines of the story of Sudhana > in the Avatamsaka Sutra, but from the point of view of a female figure. > > --janpa This would be most interesting; as all religions were founded by men, some written material bears the mark of a male perspective. For instance, the Bhagavat Gita is about war. Is it likely, a woman would have used the same analogy (with war) to convey the message that the mind is a battle-field? Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 1999 Report Share Posted May 7, 1999 Message: 7 Thu, 6 May 1999 19:39:16 -0500 (CDT) hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) Re: Gender and expressing experience << Thank you for your observations, Antoine, I can well imagine that your experience is beyond polarity of any kind! >> I wonder how you do that? )) << When I went to graduate school in the early 70's and first read psychological studies in depth, it became obvious that the entire construct of psychological "normality" was based on the personalities of male caucasian college students (you probably know this from your parents being psychiatrists). >> I guess it's like that in all institutions. It's fascinating to remark how a lot of the great 'genius' had a strong feminine aspect, either as a wife or reconciliated within their personality, and with time only the male aspect of this knowledge seems to be transmitted in our dominant male societies. << At the time, there was no literature that described the way I thought, felt or perceived life. I occasionally have this same sensation reading spiritual literature, although the full experience of non duality is obviously beyond gender. Since I am not permanently established in bliss, I still sometimes appreciate the validation that can come through stories of others who have awakened. >> Yes like that of David H., Harsha, Jan and so many others on this list. In them i saw a nice blend of female and male "literature" influence, like if something is away from the books to touch me directly in them, without passing by the mold of society, a form of poetry, if i might say, in expressing the experience directly. << I wish there were more stories written by Mrs. Ramakrishna, Mrs. Gandhi, Mrs. Gopi Krishna -- their husbands revered these women but I know nothing about them. >> I often wonder why you write so less, for your experience touche me, enrich me... << I wish I were beyond gender, too, but I'm not and when I try to ignore this aspect of my experience I lose balance in rejecting what is. >> They are many ways to eat (like ants do, or else) that balanced 'mold', interface to our interactions or simply actions or non actions. And each experience i am allowed to touch from my emphatic world is such an occasion to eat away this mold forming my identity. << Happily, I've found stories new to me on Jerry's website, like Bernadette Roberts and Suzanne Segal. I got Jean Klein's book but he turned out to be a guy! No matter, it's a fine book. >> And i like reading you, Thank you for sharing, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 >When spontaneous sadhana was over, on verifying "covered grounds" it became >clear that what can be called "essential stuff" like urdhva-retas, was >written by men for men. Purohit swami is no exception. An excerpt (on yama, >regarding continence): "Mental energy is the product of seed, I've noticed this. Also, I've noticed reference to nine aperatures. Women have ten. Clearly, our yoga must have variations since all the aperatures reflect more subtle qualities than the gross physical senses. Tamra _____________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 Antoine: [...] > Yes like that of David H., Harsha, Jan and so many others on this list. > In them i saw a nice blend of female and male "literature" influence, > like if something is away from the books to touch me directly in them, > without passing by the mold of society, a form of poetry, if i might > say, in expressing the experience directly. [...] Jan: How one integrates and/or transcends gender will be different for everyone. In my case, it was the and/or option. In early youth, the difference was observed: males would take initiatives or take a decision concerning the initiatives of females; males were always "boss". What struck me, this really was a gender issue; males would get irritated rather quickly and then decide from their irritation and their assumed dominance over females. Another issue was patience; female relatives showed an almost endless patience whereas the male relatives lost patience much faster. After punishing me had become counterproductive to a point where psychological advice was sought, it was decided that my mother would take the position of the main educator. Instead of punishment, I had to answer questions regarding motives for behavior and got lengthy explanations regarding the consequences of my actions in terms of bringing misery to others and ultimately to myself. At the end of the sixties Europe had a kind of movement against authoritarianism and in related groups were many men without the so called "hormonal overdrive". It ended with an anti-war action that became my "lift off" for spiritual life. When spontaneous sadhana was over, on verifying "covered grounds" it became clear that what can be called "essential stuff" like urdhva-retas, was written by men for men. Purohit swami is no exception. An excerpt (on yama, regarding continence): "Mental energy is the product of seed, hence the necessity of conserving what gives the yogi the power to concentrate". The encyclopedia on urdhva-retas: "refers to the psychophysiological process by which the semen (retas) flows upwards (urdhva), and the yogin in whom this process is alive. First mentioned in the Maitrayaniya Upanishad (II.3) as a practice of the valakhilyas (a certain type of seer or rishi), urdhva-retas has since ancient times been the esoteric reason for celibacy (brahmacarya). It is the process underlying sublimation, by which the semen is transmuted into vitality (ojas) that feeds the higher centers of the body (in the sense of 'sheaths' (koshas)), notably the brain". The Rosicrucians (Holland) offered a genderless explanation for the sublime qualities that the practice of urdhva retas will bring (put in my words): The base chakra has to be polished like a mirror. When a stainless mirror has been obtained, all energy will be reflected and travel upwards. Of course this takes care of energies like anger as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 1999 Report Share Posted May 8, 1999 > "Tamra Temple" <teatemple > > > >When spontaneous sadhana was over, on verifying "covered > grounds" it became > >clear that what can be called "essential stuff" like urdhva-retas, was > >written by men for men. Purohit swami is no exception. An > excerpt (on yama, > >regarding continence): "Mental energy is the product of seed, > > I've noticed this. Also, I've noticed reference to nine aperatures. Women > have ten. > Clearly, our yoga must have variations since all the aperatures > reflect more > subtle > qualities than the gross physical senses. Tamra There isn't even agreement on chakras. The amount can differ and also the colors. Then there is the matter concerning the two heart chakras, on "on axis" and one to the right. I'm positive there is one more, near the physical heart. The Bible mentions something like "Test my kidneys and my heart" which can only be seen as a reference to the base center at the lower back and this 'third' heart center. It is rather fortunate that spiritual progress doesn't depend on the knowledge of chakras, nadis and granthis Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 Gloria: I certainly agree with this post about eastern teachings being focused on the male as is most spiritual teachings. Perhaps what is missing that is now coming through is the female energies of the Divine Mother. Shiva/Shakti is certainly the same in male and female allowing the same process to operate throughout the awakening. What is needed now isn't dominance but rather harmony and balance all around, don't you agree? >"jb" <kvy9 >< > >Re: Gender and expressing experience >Sat, May 8, 1999, 2:53 AM > >"jb" <kvy9 > > Antoine: >[...] >> Yes like that of David H., Harsha, Jan and so many others on this list. >> In them i saw a nice blend of female and male "literature" influence, >> like if something is away from the books to touch me directly in them, >> without passing by the mold of society, a form of poetry, if i might >> say, in expressing the experience directly. >[...] >Jan: > >How one integrates and/or transcends gender will be different for everyone. >In my case, it was the and/or option. In early youth, the difference was >observed: males would take initiatives or take a decision concerning the >initiatives of females; males were always "boss". What struck me, this >really was a gender issue; males would get irritated rather quickly and then >decide from their irritation and their assumed dominance over females. > >Another issue was patience; female relatives showed an almost endless >patience whereas the male relatives lost patience much faster. After >punishing me had become counterproductive to a point where psychological >advice was sought, it was decided that my mother would take the position of >the main educator. Instead of punishment, I had to answer questions >regarding motives for behavior and got lengthy explanations regarding the >consequences of my actions in terms of bringing misery to others and >ultimately to myself. > >At the end of the sixties Europe had a kind of movement against >authoritarianism and in related groups were many men without the so called >"hormonal overdrive". It ended with an anti-war action that became my "lift >off" for spiritual life. > >When spontaneous sadhana was over, on verifying "covered grounds" it became >clear that what can be called "essential stuff" like urdhva-retas, was >written by men for men. Purohit swami is no exception. An excerpt (on yama, >regarding continence): "Mental energy is the product of seed, hence the >necessity of conserving what gives the yogi the power to concentrate". > >The encyclopedia on urdhva-retas: "refers to the psychophysiological process >by which the semen (retas) flows upwards (urdhva), and the yogin in whom >this process is alive. First mentioned in the Maitrayaniya Upanishad (II.3) >as a practice of the valakhilyas (a certain type of seer or rishi), >urdhva-retas has since ancient times been the esoteric reason for celibacy >(brahmacarya). It is the process underlying sublimation, by which the semen >is transmuted into vitality (ojas) that feeds the higher centers of the body >(in the sense of 'sheaths' (koshas)), notably the brain". > >The Rosicrucians (Holland) offered a genderless explanation for the sublime >qualities that the practice of urdhva retas will bring (put in my words): >The base chakra has to be polished like a mirror. When a stainless mirror >has been obtained, all energy will be reflected and travel upwards. Of >course this takes care of energies like anger as well. > > >------ >Do you know how many communities live at ONElist? >http://www.ONElist.com >More than 140,000 with nearly 1,000 new ones joining each day! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 > "Gloria Joy Greco" <lodpress > > Gloria: > I certainly agree with this post about eastern teachings being focused > on the male as is most spiritual teachings. Perhaps what is > missing that is > now coming through is the female energies of the Divine Mother. > Shiva/Shakti > is certainly the same in male and female allowing the same process to > operate throughout the awakening. What is needed now isn't dominance but > rather harmony and balance all around, don't you agree? Jan: Apparently some material has to be re-written; when it is acknowledged there are gender-inconsistencies, it means the original material contains errors. For instance, brahmacarya is a genderless practice but the theory behind urdhva-retas obviously is wrong; yet the practice works very well. Instead of swinging from one extreme to the other, not only balance and harmony are required but right views. A father in heaven and a mother earth are both expressions from a gender perspective. Replacing one gender with the other or using both doesn't change this. One view is that awakening is a necessity from an evolutionary perspective because without it mankind will ruin itself and the planet. So it is logical that "the way of enlightenment" is more joyful than the way of "gratifying whims of the mind". If "the way of enlightenment" is an evolutionary development, it makes sense that it can be followed without knowledge about it, just like we can breathe without knowing the biomechanics of our lungs. IMO any "science of enlightenment" has to be genderless as there are both men and women who had spontaneous enlightenment. Of course there are differences when one comes to the level of chakras and nadis but these are concerning details. The above isn't meant to be criticism; rather, as a reminder that gender is very much engraved in society and many languages are assigning gender (masculine, feminine, neuter) to nouns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 1999 Report Share Posted May 9, 1999 Gloria: Perhaps it is as simple as having females come into the conversation in the transformed state to produce the change. ---------- >"jb" <kvy9 >< > >Re: Gender and expressing experience >Sun, May 9, 1999, 5:42 AM > >"jb" <kvy9 > >> "Gloria Joy Greco" <lodpress >> >> Gloria: >> I certainly agree with this post about eastern teachings being focused >> on the male as is most spiritual teachings. Perhaps what is >> missing that is >> now coming through is the female energies of the Divine Mother. >> Shiva/Shakti >> is certainly the same in male and female allowing the same process to >> operate throughout the awakening. What is needed now isn't dominance but >> rather harmony and balance all around, don't you agree? > >Jan: >Apparently some material has to be re-written; when it is acknowledged there >are gender-inconsistencies, it means the original material contains errors. >For instance, brahmacarya is a genderless practice but the theory behind >urdhva-retas obviously is wrong; yet the practice works very well. Instead >of swinging from one extreme to the other, not only balance and harmony are >required but right views. A father in heaven and a mother earth are both >expressions from a gender perspective. Replacing one gender with the other >or using both doesn't change this. > >One view is that awakening is a necessity from an evolutionary perspective >because without it mankind will ruin itself and the planet. So it is logical >that "the way of enlightenment" is more joyful than the way of "gratifying >whims of the mind". If "the way of enlightenment" is an evolutionary >development, it makes sense that it can be followed without knowledge about >it, just like we can breathe without knowing the biomechanics of our lungs. >IMO any "science of enlightenment" has to be genderless as there are both >men and women who had spontaneous enlightenment. Of course there are >differences when one comes to the level of chakras and nadis but these are >concerning details. > >The above isn't meant to be criticism; rather, as a reminder that gender is >very much engraved in society and many languages are assigning gender >(masculine, feminine, neuter) to nouns. > > >------ >Do you know how many communities live at ONElist? >http://www.ONElist.com >More than 140,000 with nearly 1,000 new ones joining each day! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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