Guest guest Posted May 5, 1999 Report Share Posted May 5, 1999 > >"Madhya Nandi" <madhya > >>It is rather common indeed and it can be met as follows: first, > >>understanding that one's 'real nature' is independent of all states, > >>including waking, dreaming and deep, dreamless sleep. > >I must take the rather unpopular view of completely disagreeing with the >assertion in this perspective. It is not possible, in my view, to support >the above statement--either by experience or by rational argument. If one >believes that one can somehow 'get out of consciousness' and into some >other >'absolutely indepedendent--state... condition... essence' , etc., then I >will assert that a fundamental misunderstanding has occurred regarding the >nature of what is possible and not-possible to any and all beings. Madyha, When I first experienced this, I had none of the doctrinal terminology or philosophical descriptions. All I could say is that it is pure awareness with no observer. No "one" aware, just simply awareness. There was no tamra "in" any state. That seems radically differenent from what we term consciousness, yet is infinitely aware. I regret that I'm not better at describing this, but at least I can say that the above statement does indeed make sense even though I'm reading it out of context here. The separate states only exist when there is a partial/experiencer self rather than the true self. God, I'm no good at this. Hitting send anyway. Tamra _____________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 On Thu, 6 May 1999 00:44:51 jb wrote: >> Because there are less chances to observe >> negatively flavored experiences >> in seclusion ? > >Exactly. Also, the changes from negative to positive >and vice versa are missing. Your view that the changes from negative to positive and vice versa is important for the learning process that both K and life is very interesting. I certainly see your point and have heards it from many other different sources (one being a physician friend). Taking life as it comes with its ups and down I guess is the hardest lesson of all to learn (next after enlightenment perhaps ? ). >> I have experienced the bliss state continuosly for >> days while being engaged in very hard, physical work >Then it won't come as a surprise that in many European monasteries there has >been a tradition of hard labor Not at all. There is a balance between hard labor and driving oneself into the ground, though. A line which I have in the past have had difficulties in upholding. >The feeling of loss is unavoidable, unless one is enlightened before >becoming conscious of K. It isn't a "real" loss though. Nonduality is about >loosing the "me". It only seems a loss; actually, it is a great gain >Compare it to loosing a heavy rucksack of water while walking alongside a >crystal clear mountain stream... Nice image. Yes, it doesn't exactly feel like a loss, more like shedding excess baggage, dropping ballast to get the balloon higher up into the air. It is good to travel lightly. >K. herself will often aid in obtaining a healthy body. The inclusion of >Hatha Yoga into Raja Yoga is for this reason. But Hatha Yoga isn't primarily for "awakened", is it ? I thought Hatha Yoga was one of the major forms of yoga ? (I have very little knowledge of yoga.) >However, any thing from >aerobics to running will do as well, unless it is done at a level of competition. OK. Thanks for the tips. It's encouraging to see that there isn't one single form of exercise (such as yoga) which will go well along with K. I've long been attracted to climbing, so we'll see if I can't get started on that soon. >>Is it common to get exercised "by" K this way ? > >It is one of the best things I know; it is surrender. )) Just the word "surrender" makes my hands feel warm. Yes, it truly is a magnificent experience. I lie myself flat for K any chance I have. I'm a complete pushover. >Yes. The investigating mind always plays an important role. If in doubt, >always ask if it is someone's experience, insight or opinion. If this is >practiced on one's own "output" as well, it is surprising how "empty" the >mind becomes. Jan, that is a very inspiring and again encouraging advice. Thank you. Many ppl seem to be wary of having an investigative mind or asking too many questions in re. K and mysticism, as if asking questions is some form of heresy. Questioning oneself is good, always good. Thanks for your good advice. Best regards, Amanda. Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 1999 Report Share Posted May 10, 1999 > "Amanda Erhart" <mumblecat [...] > But Hatha Yoga isn't primarily for "awakened", is it ? > I thought Hatha Yoga was one of the major forms of > yoga ? > (I have very little knowledge of yoga.) [...] Another name for Hatha yoga could be "yoga of health" and I remember a Hatha yoga book by Yogi Vithaldas that was titled "the yoga system of health". If asanas are practiced for physical fitness, even a hard workout isn't bad. But it will at best result in better health and have no other effect. One has to be realistic. Once a good health has been obtained, it has to be maintained and more isn't required. One idea behind asanas is that good health can be obtained without the large expenditure of energy that is usual in sports. About Hatha yoga, a few lines quoted from Purohit Swami: "[...] I met many who practiced Hatha yoga as a stepping stone to raja yoga, but the few who were mere Hatha yogis had great powers, strong healthy bodies and immense vanity. So long as they were in the Hatha yoga samadhi, their minds were at rest, but as soon as they came out, their mind revolted. They were generally amenable to praise; and some more worldly than average worldly men. That was the chief reason why I lost faith in Hatha yoga. [...] These postures have been incorporated in the Raja yoga system and I have not met a yogi who has not practiced one or to, especially siddhasana or padmasana. In the earlier stages they practice a few others, to gain physical fitness and immunity from disease. But during my travels in India, to my horror and amazement, I found caricatures of these postures and it is no wonder that when the tradition is being lost, people pin their faith in books which give inaccurate or inadequate accounts. These caricaturing postures do not harm those who practice them for physical fitness, every posture for a minute or two, but they do incalculable harm to those who want to keep a posture for three hours [...] I asked a great Mahatma what would awaken the Kundalinee and he said: 'Renunciation, Renunciation, Renunciation, and I found it true. I met some Hatha yogis who through postures and breathing exercises awakened the Kundalinee, but as soon as they left their meditative life, the passage closed again. It is the inner fire, the serpentine fire, as it is called, that leads a man to liberation, that makes the mind fit for concentration, and the body fit to sustain the weight of the higher spiritual powers." [...] These are comments on Hatha yoga (practitioners) in India, in the 1930's, when yoga and meditation weren't business. IMO, almost 70 years later, things haven't improved. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Jan and Satsanghers interested in info regarding hatha yoga; We should perhaps forgive Jan for his pronouncements regarding a subject that he seems to know very little about. So far as any of us know, he has not practiced hatha yoga, and despite his lengthy quote from a single source, he offered little credible information regarding hatha yoga. Please, Jan, your opinions are welcome, but please do not make PRONOUNCEMENTS--declarations about the 'way things are'. I haven't a bit of problem with someone saying that he or she doesn't believe that hatha yoga or raja yoga-- or any path for that matter-- is an effective path to--wherever it is that we Satsanghers already are and are equally 'on our way.' Individuals are certainly free, in a free for all list as we have here, to offer views pro and con topics near and dear to their hearts. But, please, don't assume the 'experts' role--unless you can verify that role in some manner. Of course, probably if one is an expert, he or she might be a little more realistic about the benefits or limitations of his or her field of expertise. Hatha yoga, from the sanskrit words for 'sun' and 'moon' has many, many beneficial qualities. Hatha yoga practice can be as much or as little as the aspirant may wish to explore. Yoga practice can integrate mind, breath and body into one flowing movement. Hatha yoga has the power to fuse the whole personality into a Self-realization that is physically sound, psychologically serene and transcendentally Awake. Hatha yoga is perhaps legitimately considered both a preparatory and a supportive technology for Self-realization. My personal experience of dedicated hatha yoga practice offered me marvelous wisdom regarding my body, my mind and the subtle energy that is, in my view, the sensation of Being Herself. It was after a particularly strenuous Hatha yoga session and meditation that Mother Kundalini awakened Me to Her Presence. Some postures are still a sacred part of my personal ritual. There are many books and some good periodicals that extol the virtues of hatha yoga. Madhya Nandi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Yogi Vithaldas is a very knowledgeable writer on and Master of Hatha Yoga. I would suggest you read the book in order to know what the Master told about his "own" discipline. One of the gender differences that start early in life is the kind of games one is involved in. The boys engage much more in "wild" games involving running, daring and sports than do girls. So the boys know their mind-body and its limits much better than do girls. This is one of the reasons for a gender-based difference in experience of Hatha Yoga. On a global scale, society-imposed subordinateness of women, starting in early youth, is what makes the major part of gender discrimination. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 ---------- > >"jb" <kvy9 > >Yogi Vithaldas is a very knowledgeable writer on and Master of Hatha Yoga. I >would suggest you read the book in order to know what the Master told about >his "own" discipline. Madhya: Marvelous and knowledgeable authorities on Hatha Yoga Abound! Iyengar, (Light on Yoga, Light on Pranayama). Baba Hari Dass's perspectives are well presented in his Ashtanga Yoga Primer--and many, many others. These are excellent sources of information. To really delve into hatha yoga, one must trace the roots of the practice. From my own experience, I know that as one allows one's body to be filled with Shakti, one may become capable of moving effortlessly and spontaneously into yoga postures. This type of hatha yoga is sometimes considered to be how postures originated: with ecstatic movements, led by the Mother Energy to release tension in the body/mind/spirit of the practicer. >One of the gender differences that start early in life is the kind of games >one is involved in. The boys engage much more in "wild" games involving >running, daring and sports than do girls. So the boys know their mind-body >and its limits much better than do girls. This is one of the reasons for a >gender-based difference in experience of Hatha Yoga. On a global scale, >society-imposed subordinateness of women, starting in early youth, is what >makes the major part of gender discrimination. > >Jan The statement that boys know their 'mind-body' better than women, (whether in regards to hatha yoga or otherwise) is an unsupported, unfounded presumption. Women understand their mind/body complex perhaps better than men--but not by virtue of sports or roughhousing. After all, these are hardly the only or best ways for one to 'know' one's body/mind. Women possess a tradition of body cycles and transformation that men do not share. Not that men do not also experience cycles--possibly they do. However, they may have been largely ignored--to their detriment, perhaps? Madhya --- >Having difficulty getting "in synch" with list members? > >Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events, meetings and more! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 .. >Hatha yoga, from the sanskrit words for 'sun' and 'moon' has many, many >beneficial qualities. Hatha yoga practice can be as much or as little as >the aspirant may wish to explore. Yoga practice can integrate mind, breath >and body into one flowing movement. Hatha yoga has the power to fuse the >whole personality into a Self-realization that is physically sound, >psychologically serene and transcendentally Awake. >Hatha yoga is perhaps legitimately considered both a preparatory and a >supportive technology for Self-realization. My personal experience of >dedicated hatha yoga practice offered me marvelous wisdom regarding my body, >my mind and the subtle energy that is, in my view, the sensation of Being >Herself. It was after a particularly strenuous Hatha yoga session and >meditation that Mother Kundalini awakened Me to Her Presence. Some postures >are still a sacred part of my personal ritual. Hatha meaning the sun and moon is also a reference to the ida and pingala nadis, the goal is to purify the ida and pingala and move the prana through the sushmna thereby awakening the kundalini. All physical systems of yoga have has one of their goals preparation for the awakening of the kundalini energy. Linda Madhya Nandi ------ Congratulations to "Trail Rider," our latest ONElist of the Week. http://www.ONElist.com Visit our homepage and share with us how ONElist is changing YOUR life! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Hi Jan: Maybe boys get involved in 'wild' games in an effort to understand the mind-body limits as well as the girls . In the end no matter what the basis or reason for gender discrimination it has been with society for thousands of years and represents simply another illusion to move beyond in the discovery of self. Linda >One of the gender differences that start early in life is the kind of games >one is involved in. The boys engage much more in "wild" games involving >running, daring and sports than do girls. So the boys know their mind-body >and its limits much better than do girls. This is one of the reasons for a >gender-based difference in experience of Hatha Yoga. On a global scale, >society-imposed subordinateness of women, starting in early youth, is what >makes the major part of gender discrimination. Jan ------ Having difficulty getting "in synch" with list members? Try ONElist's Shared Calendar to organize events, meetings and more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 At 11:27 AM 5/11/99 +0100, you wrote: >"jb" <kvy9 >One of the gender differences that start early in life is the kind of games >one is involved in. The boys engage much more in "wild" games involving >running, daring and sports than do girls. So the boys know their mind-body >and its limits much better than do girls. Might I suggest that such sweeping generalizations do far more harm than good? This is one small step short of misogynism. Also, it is a false statement. Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 So far, there is one statement claiming men know their mind-body better than women. And one statement saying women know their mind-body better than men. Now I will make a statement. The Awakened (of both sexes) know their real nature better than any ordinary man or woman. Perhaps that is more important than knowing one's "mind-body." Perhaps the "mind-body" is going to die in 20 years, or 10 years, or 10 seconds. Perhaps it is almost completely irrelevant, perhaps consciousness is the only important thing in this Universe. Perhaps this thread should die as well. Hari OM, Tim At 06:03 AM 5/11/99 -0700, you wrote: >"Madhya Nandi" <madhya >The statement that boys know their 'mind-body' better than women, (whether >in regards to hatha yoga or otherwise) is an unsupported, unfounded >presumption. Women understand their mind/body complex perhaps better than >men-- ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Tim Gerchmez [fewtch] Tuesday, May 11, 1999 11:39 AM Re: Digest Number 146, reply to jb Tim Gerchmez <fewtch At 11:27 AM 5/11/99 +0100, you wrote: >"jb" <kvy9 >One of the gender differences that start early in life is the kind of games >one is involved in. The boys engage much more in "wild" games involving >running, daring and sports than do girls. So the boys know their mind-body >and its limits much better than do girls. Might I suggest that such sweeping generalizations do far more harm than good? This is one small step short of misogynism. Also, it is a false statement. Tim Relax Tim. Jan's statement is certainly plausible given evidence of the differences in social conditioning of boys and girls from the day they are born. You can disagree with it and present your own evidence rationally. I think we can have an enriching and a better dialogue if we learn to present our disagreements in an amicable way without making inflammatory statements and suggesting what others have said is false. The fact is that we all have different perspectives given our conditioning and background. a is all about enjoying a diversity of viewpoints, and feeling comfortable enough to make our own viewpoints known in a gentle and kind way. We demand gentleness and kindness here and we will force it down everyone, o.k. Humor is o.k. Some sarcasm accepted and expected :--). Hey, love you all. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Madhya Nandi wrote: <snip> > The statement that boys know their 'mind-body' better than women, (whether > in regards to hatha yoga or otherwise) is an unsupported, unfounded > presumption. Women understand their mind/body complex perhaps better than > men--but not by virtue of sports or roughhousing. After all, these are > hardly the only or best ways for one to 'know' one's body/mind. Women > possess a tradition of body cycles and transformation that men do not share. > Not that men do not also experience cycles--possibly they do. However, > they may have been largely ignored--to their detriment, perhaps? > Marcia: I think this is correct. Women gestate another being inside their body. There is nothing on earth like that process to acquaint one with one's own body. After birthing a male child and two female ones I can attest that it is even possible to tell if one is carrying a male child by the difference in hormones flowing throughout one's body and in the difference in the quality of one's dreams if carrying a male child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 > "Linda Callanan" <shastra > > > > > > . > > >Hatha yoga, from the sanskrit words for 'sun' and 'moon' has many, many > >beneficial qualities. Hatha yoga practice can be as much or as little as > >the aspirant may wish to explore. Yoga practice can integrate > mind, breath > >and body into one flowing movement. Hatha yoga has the power to fuse the > >whole personality into a Self-realization that is physically sound, > >psychologically serene and transcendentally Awake. > > >Hatha yoga is perhaps legitimately considered both a preparatory and a > >supportive technology for Self-realization. My personal experience of > >dedicated hatha yoga practice offered me marvelous wisdom regarding my > body, > >my mind and the subtle energy that is, in my view, the sensation of Being > >Herself. It was after a particularly strenuous Hatha yoga session and > >meditation that Mother Kundalini awakened Me to Her Presence. Some > postures > >are still a sacred part of my personal ritual. > > Hatha meaning the sun and moon is also a reference to the ida and pingala > nadis, the goal is to purify the ida and pingala and move the > prana through > the sushmna thereby awakening the kundalini. All physical systems of yoga > have has one of their goals preparation for the awakening of the kundalini > energy. This is exactly what Yogi Vithaldas offered at the end of his book, as it was his experience too. Hatha Yoga Masters like Gorakhnath are extremely rare. For someone like Gorakhnath, my once held little pranayama practice of taking one breath per minute during 120 hours must be a joke but how many present day practitioners of Hatha Yoga could perform such a triviality? Jan > Linda > > Madhya Nandi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 > "Linda Callanan" <shastra > > Hi Jan: > > Maybe boys get involved in 'wild' games in an effort to understand the > mind-body limits as well as the girls . > > In the end no matter what the basis or reason for gender discrimination it > has been with society for thousands of years and represents simply another > illusion to move beyond in the discovery of self. > > Linda Hi Linda, I've known several women who early in youth reported seeing deceased relatives, unknown people and strange life forms - the signs of early awakening or being born awakened. Those who were made to believe it was all nonsense often had to behave subservient as well and the opening closed. One of my sisters belongs to this group. I never came across men with this kind of experience (K. awakening closing), which doesn't mean there aren't. A German sports-physiologist has done a lot of study and experiments regarding gender difference in sports. His (scientifically founded) conclusion was, that in endurance sports women could outperform men. So why doesn't this happen? Women don't go to the limit in training; they are training less intense. Why couldn't this apply too in spiritual life as well? There have been several articles in New Scientist regarding the "weaker sex" and it is male Among others, women can endure more and cope better with stress - isn't this a boon for meditation? Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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