Guest guest Posted October 21, 1992 Report Share Posted October 21, 1992 At 01:25 AM 5/12/99 +0100, jb wrote: >"jb" <kvy9 > >> "Hans Deunhouwer" <ja.deunhouwer >>[...] > Can there be thinking without language ? >> I am looking forward to your thoughts about this. >> >> Bi >> Hans > >Yes, the best example I know is dreaming. All the objects appearing are >thought-made without language and my little practice of dream-yoga made it >possible to observe the process. >Jan Yes, and I would add, the subtle thoughts one experiences in stages of meditation which are non-linguistic, experienced as shape relationships and more purely visual events. Also, as a painter, the most compelling realm of thought for me is in the act of making, of painting, and this thinking is without language, most purely visual. Then of course, as in meditation, language-based thoughts arise and that flow is interrupted, but refocusing on the act, one returns to the world of visual thought. I would guess a musician might answer in the same way about thinking in sound? Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 At 12:01 PM 5/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar >Might I suggest that such sweeping generalizations do far more harm than >good? This is one small step short of misogynism. Also, it is a false >statement. > >Tim > >Relax Tim. I wasn't aware that I was "excited." >Jan's statement is certainly plausible given evidence of the >differences in social conditioning of boys and girls from the day they are >born. No, it isn't plausible at all. >I think we can have an enriching and a better dialogue if we learn to present >our disagreements in an amicable way without making inflammatory statements >and suggesting what others have said is false. You don't believe that others can make false statements? If I said the moon is made of green cheese, would you recommend nobody disagree with that? Also, show me where I have been inflammatory and I will apologize. Perhaps we come from very different backgrounds. To me, the statement I made above was not inflammatory at all. You are blowing my statement out of proportion. >The fact is that we all have >different perspectives given our conditioning and background. Exactly. Now, look at my own statement in that same light, rather than giving preference to Jan's statement. >a is all about enjoying a diversity of viewpoints, and feeling >comfortable enough to make our own viewpoints known in a gentle and kind >way. We demand gentleness and kindness here and we will force it down >everyone, o.k. I do get tired of being "chastised" by you, Harsha. You are "crying wolf" too often and too loudly, and when I read between the lines there is a lot of ego in your statements, and not much self-honesty. I can only tell you what I see, and that is what I see. You wear a mask of love, gentleness, etc. but you are unable to be direct and honest about anything. Open your eyes and see that the world is not all love, brotherhood, peace, beauty, loveliness, joy and contentment. Take a look and maybe you will see reality for what it is, that reality is not always beautiful and sweet and sentimental, like a piece of candy. Love to you as well, Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 Tim Gerchmez [fewtch] Tuesday, May 11, 1999 12:27 PM Harsha/Re: Digest Number 146, reply to jb I do get tired of being "chastised" by you, Harsha. You are "crying wolf" too often and too loudly, and when I read between the lines there is a lot of ego in your statements, and not much self-honesty. I can only tell you what I see, and that is what I see. You wear a mask of love, gentleness, etc. but you are unable to be direct and honest about anything. Open your eyes and see that the world is not all love, brotherhood, peace, beauty, loveliness, joy and contentment. Take a look and maybe you will see reality for what it is, that reality is not always beautiful and sweet and sentimental, like a piece of candy. Love to you as well, Tim Harsha: Thanks Tim for your insightful comments. I am on a Self Improvement Program (SIP). I hope to be more acceptable to more people after I finish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) <hluthar Aan: < > Datum: dinsdag 11 mei 1999 18:43 Onderwerp: Re: Harsha/Re: Digest Number 146, reply to jb |"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar | | |Tim Gerchmez [fewtch] |Tuesday, May 11, 1999 12:27 PM | | Harsha/Re: Digest Number 146, reply to jb | | |I do get tired of being "chastised" by you, Harsha. You are "crying wolf" |too often and too loudly, and when I read between the lines there is a lot |of ego in your statements, and not much self-honesty. I can only tell you |what I see, and that is what I see. You wear a mask of love, gentleness, |etc. but you are unable to be direct and honest about anything. Open your |eyes and see that the world is not all love, brotherhood, peace, beauty, |loveliness, joy and contentment. Take a look and maybe you will see |reality for what it is, that reality is not always beautiful and sweet and |sentimental, like a piece of candy. | |Love to you as well, | |Tim | |Harsha: Thanks Tim for your insightful comments. I am on a Self Improvement |Program (SIP). I hope to be more acceptable to more people after I finish |it. | Hi Tim, Hi Harsha, We all know that everything and everybody around us is mirroring back what we are, so my reply to whatever subject says something about myself rather than about the one i am replying to. I myself find this sometimes very difficult to realize. However, it is so. Let's make jokes about it rather than becoming serious which is an illness in itself. It makes me smile when i see that we make such a fuss about some statements. By the way, i am curious what you think of this. Can there be thinking without language ? I am looking forward to your thoughts about this. Bi Hans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 1999 Report Share Posted May 11, 1999 > "Hans Deunhouwer" <ja.deunhouwer >[...] Can there be thinking without language ? > I am looking forward to your thoughts about this. > > Bi > Hans Yes, the best example I know is dreaming. All the objects appearing are thought-made without language and my little practice of dream-yoga made it possible to observe the process. In lucid dreaming, the objects still are created by thought without language, but one's conscious thought will "steer" the process of object-forming in the desired direction. Another observation was, that the automated thought-made object-forming in dreams is the monkey-mind chatter while awake Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 1999 Report Share Posted May 12, 1999 At 12:25 PM 10/21/92 -0400, you wrote: >Jill Eggers <eggers >I would guess a >musician might answer in the same way about thinking in sound? I'm not a professional musician, but I *constantly* have music "going through my head." The music can be with or without words. It's annoying and very difficult to quiet during meditation, but at other times I rarely even notice it. But there is almost always a song playing "in the background" while I'm awake. I don't know who implanted this jukebox in my head. Sometimes I have had songs repeating over and over, keeping me awake long into the night. This mind's "memory" of music is so precise that it can "play" a song from beginning to end EXACTLY as originally heard. It seems to be some kind of automatic thing, as it is not under my conscious control. Efforts to stop the music playing result in it becoming more tenacious than ever. I am only gradually learning to bring it under conscious control during meditation. My current theory is that it is a thing of the ego, this mind's primary way of maintaining a coherent sense of "self" by playing and repeating music. Tim ----- Visit The Core of the WWW at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics. Tim's Windows and DOS Shareware/Freeware is at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/shareware.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 1999 Report Share Posted May 12, 1999 > Jill Eggers <eggers > > At 01:25 AM 5/12/99 +0100, jb wrote: > >"jb" <kvy9 > > > >> "Hans Deunhouwer" <ja.deunhouwer > >>[...] > > Can there be thinking without language ? > >> I am looking forward to your thoughts about this. > >> > >> Bi > >> Hans > > > >Yes, the best example I know is dreaming. All the objects appearing are > >thought-made without language and my little practice of > dream-yoga made it > >possible to observe the process. > >Jan > > Yes, and I would add, the subtle thoughts one experiences in stages of > meditation which are non-linguistic, experienced as shape > relationships and > more purely visual events. Also, as a painter, the most > compelling realm of > thought for me is in the act of making, of painting, and this thinking is > without language, most purely visual. Then of course, as in meditation, > language-based thoughts arise and that flow is interrupted, but refocusing > on the act, one returns to the world of visual thought. I would guess a > musician might answer in the same way about thinking in sound? > > Jill As a hobby musician, making a piece of music is without thought. The process is more like comparing with what is defined in memory as great rhythms, riffs, grooves and bass lines. Everything that is new, will be compared with the existing and added to it. It is "music being made" and no thoughts whatsoever arise for hours, with sometimes the exception of biology suddenly signaling things like "time to go to the loo". Probably the breathing halts as well, because at the end of such a period the body reacts as if it has a need of air. Another mode of operation was suddenly hearing a song or melody with the "inner ear". In that case, when the above criteria were met, it was a matter of copying from memory. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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