Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Holly, It can't be described. I ran into my religion prof babbling that there's a fourth. A fourth union, a fourth state, but try as I did, I could not explain. Still can't and I wish I could. It has to be known and then all the words are known to be relections and fragments of that awareness. Like drops of light from the sun. The three states can be shared with language, but the source cannot. When I see all the discussion and debate on these lists, I only want to say meditate or forget it. They're fun to read, but the ones who know that awareness do and they ought to know that others won't know it through discussion. So here's my words. Will they help? Love, Tamra >hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) > > > befuddled, not for the first time >Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:45:05 -0500 (CDT) > >hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) > >I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Many sages, including >Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of >waking, dreaming and deep sleep. What happens to a person who has >realized Self as s/he experiences the 3 states? I've had lucid dreams >and I've even had the strange experience of remaining lucid during a >faint (I saw and heard the emergency happening in my body, very weird). >Does an awake person even remain lucid during deep sleep? What's it >like? Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm >missing something. Thanks, Holly > >------ >How has ONElist changed your life? > >Share your story with us at > _____________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Many sages, including Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. What happens to a person who has realized Self as s/he experiences the 3 states? I've had lucid dreams and I've even had the strange experience of remaining lucid during a faint (I saw and heard the emergency happening in my body, very weird). Does an awake person even remain lucid during deep sleep? What's it like? Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm missing something. Thanks, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. wrote:.) > > I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Many sages, including > Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of > waking, dreaming and deep sleep. What happens to a person who has > realized Self as s/he experiences the 3 states? I've had lucid dreams > and I've even had the strange experience of remaining lucid during a > faint (I saw and heard the emergency happening in my body, very weird). > Does an awake person even remain lucid during deep sleep? What's it > like? Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm > missing something. Thanks, Holly One is simply aware while the body wakes and sleeps. The experience of such a constant awareness does not mean one is enlightened. There is being awake and there is being AWAKE. A person still has to know what to do with that experience. And what you do is what you do if you're sitting in the park eating a plum. What that IS is what is meaningful. The experience is nothing, lucid or not. When you go to sleep, whether you have dreams or not or are lucid or not doesn't matter. What matters is, when you wake up do you know who you are. Ramana's inquiry is the way to know that. If you know that, then you knew it before you fell asleep and you had to know it while you were asleep. How can one even question it? What's the sense in being lucid if one cannot ask and know: Who am I? That's a plum of a question. ---Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Jerry wrote: "that's a plum of a question." Thanks, Jerry, you're a peach! H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Last night I was invited to a discussion with Langri Thangpa Dorje Senge who is a disciple of Geshe Potowa. He also works directly with the Dali Lama. Anyway, the topic of discussion was this poem, I thought I would share it with all of you: Gloria Thought Transformation In Eight Stanzas Bio-sbyong tsig-brgyad-ma Being determined to accomplish the highest welfare for all beings, who excel the wish fulfilling gem, I shall constantly hold them dear. When in the company of another, I shall view myself as the lowest of all and in the depth of my heart shall hold others dearly, as supreme. Examining my mental continuum throughout all actions, as soon as a mental affliction arises, endangering myself and others, by facing it I shall strictly avert it. When faced by a being of wicked nature who is controlled by violent wrongs and sufferings, I shall hold this one dear, so hard to find, and offer the victory to others. When someone whom I have assisted and in whom I have placed great hope inflicts upon me extremely bad harm, I shall view that one as my supreme spiritual friend. In short, I shall offer benefit and bliss to all mothers in this actual (life) and in the (future) continuum, and secretly I shall take upon myself all of the harms and sufferings of my mothers. Furthermore, having not defiled all this by the stain of preconceptions of the eight (worldly) concerns and by perceiving all phenomena as illusory, free from attachment, I shall be released from bondage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Hi Holly, When you are no longer identified with any object but instead are immersed in the Self then you know yourself as a witness to the passing states of waking, dream and sleep. This is the beginning point on the journey of unfolding your true nature. Namaste, Dirk hbarrett [hbarrett] Wednesday, June 02, 1999 7:45 AM befuddled, not for the first time hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Many sages, including Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. What happens to a person who has realized Self as s/he experiences the 3 states? I've had lucid dreams and I've even had the strange experience of remaining lucid during a faint (I saw and heard the emergency happening in my body, very weird). Does an awake person even remain lucid during deep sleep? What's it like? Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm missing something. Thanks, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Harsha: No one has the wisdom to show you the obvious Holly. If you ask a question, you will be given an answer. Neither the question nor the answer has anything to do with Reality - That Is Obvious. Holly: Many sages, including Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. Harsha: That is a way of explaining - In Nirvikalpa Samadhi one is not awake, dreaming, or in deep sleep. Such a person is in "Deep Awake" as mind and thought have been absorbed. So one says that Pure Awareness is beyond the three states and is the fourth state called Turya. Vedanta goes into this deeply. Turya reveals itself as Turyatitta (beyond the fourth). There are many commentaries on it. You can decide how useful they are. Holly: What happens to a person who has realized Self as s/he experiences the 3 states? Harsha: What happens to whom? You can reflect on that question as duality is implicit in it. You are postulating the Self-Realized person to perceive the Self differently or apart from the Person. All states exist and play out only in Reality It Self That is the Self. Holly: I've had lucid dreams and I've even had the strange experience of remaining lucid during a faint (I saw and heard the emergency happening in my body, very weird). Does an awake person even remain lucid during deep sleep? What's it like? Harsha: For whom? For whom? For whom? Holly: Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm missing something. Thanks, Holly Harsha: You are not missing anything at all Holly. Absolutely Nothing is missing. You feel you are missing something. That feeling is the real issue. There lies the conflict and That needs awareness. As long as you feel you are missing something, there will be people available to help you fill the holes. But there are no holes to fill. So do not let answers distract you from who You Are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 > Gloria: When one is striving and trying to get answers on the outside, it only creates more questions and more frustration which is the cycle recharging itself. By letting go of thought and the desire to understand, plus the feeling that there is something there to understand...then the knowing is experienced. Can you not see that this is all illusion? The realization is the surrender and being... > > > Harsha: For whom? For whom? For whom? > > Holly: Since this point is made over and over again, I feel like I'm missing > something. Thanks, Holly > > Harsha: You are not missing anything at all Holly. Absolutely Nothing is > missing. You feel you are missing something. That feeling is the real issue. > There lies the conflict and That needs awareness. As long as you feel you > are missing something, there will be people available to help you fill the > holes. But there are no holes to fill. So do not let answers distract you > from who You Are. > > ------ > Give back to your community through "Grow to Give." > > Deadline is June 19. See homepage for details. -- Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D. wrote: > > Jerry wrote: "that's a plum of a question." > > Thanks, Jerry, you're a peach! H. The hint of rain Brings out the umbrellas, And when it rains, No umbrella suffices, But the plum gets fatter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 1999 Report Share Posted June 2, 1999 Bless your heart, Harsha! Or, heart, bless your Harsha. Or, blessing is Harsha-ing heart-ing! H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 1999 Report Share Posted June 3, 1999 > hbarrett (Holly N. Barrett, Ph.D.) > > I need somebody's wisdom to show me the obvious! Many sages, including > Ramana Maharshi, talk about consciousness being beyond the 3 states of > waking, dreaming and deep sleep. [...] There is a different perspective to this. Waking, dreaming and deep sleep are not rigidly separated states, but indicate that the mind, engaged in different occupations beyond one's control, has different levels of accessibility (wakefulness or "free user access"). While awake, one cannot freely choose an object to think on; one can only steer the mind in the proper direction and without training, one cannot halt the ongoing thinking process or prevent off-topic thoughts from intruding. Within these constraints, one can work with the mind; it is conditional or limited accessibility. While dreaming, the mind is highly active, creating the virtual scenery. This means, the constraints of working with the mind are tighter than while being awake; a more limited accessibility than while being awake. If the dream becomes lucid, the constraints have lessened somewhat but still are tighter than while being awake. When it is possible to halt thinking while being awake, this will be possible as well in a lucid dream, but it will affect the creation of the virtual scenery as well and one will wake up instantly. So the "clarity of mind" in dreaming is less than while awake. Deep, dreamless sleep is very hard to tackle. Although the thought - generating activities of mind grind to a halt, the accessibility simultaneously goes to zero. But automated sense perception (that has become the de facto sense perception of a realized one) continues and exerts a "watchdog function" to eventually let one wake up in case of an emergency. So in deep sleep it IS possible to become aware of the almost inactive mind, by exceeding the watchdog threshold very slightly, causing one to become aware of perception without thought and "just being". In deep, dreamless sleep, there is "clarity of mind" because mind is silent but accessibility is zero so it isn't perceived. If the above is clear, one can say that from this perspective progress in yoga means the gradual stilling of the mind, an active stillness, where the accessibility of the mind will enhance in relation to its stilling. Ultimately, this will lead to the irreducible stillness of deep, dreamless sleep while being fully awake with total accessibility one wasn't even used to while "formerly" awake (due to the absence of "monkey chatter"). Thus, consciousness becomes uninterrupted (and it will be recognized it always was).... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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