Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 In a message dated 6/13/99 10:17:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gurcharan writes: > I apologize for such a silly question,but I am fairly new to the concept of non-dualism and can't seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once one realizes the Self and sees only reality, that not only the world disappears but also karma , rebirth and even dharma? This is sort of a trick question Gurcharan! Once one realizes the Self, yes, the world does disappear along with everything while in this realization. There is no world! Realizing Self does not automatically let go of karma, rebirth, or dharma. But the realizing itself does help shorten the timeline that may have taken literally 1000's of years to (un)do. >So would it be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma because there is only one Self ? In reality, nothing exists except light and peace that extends forever. Every thing and every one is exactly the same. There are no perceptions but these, so therefore nothing else could exist. Like Linda said, the challenge comes after realization. Taking those *real* perceptions into this world that seemingly exists, and living them. When realization of the one Self comes while in this (consciousness of this) world, it is impossible to harm another. Why would you want to hurt yourself? You can only extend kindness and peace. Rebirth, karma, and dharma can occur after these realizations, but it may not be as you saw it before. It is when we realize we have no dharma, that the story and this dreamworld ends. Until then, we do the best we can do for what we know or can remember. Much Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Hari Om ! I apologize for such a silly question,but I am fairly new to the concept of non-dualism and can't seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once one realizes the Self and sees only reality, that not only the world disappears but also karma , rebirth and even dharma ? So would it be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma because there is only one Self ? Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and improper use of terminology. Please forgive my ignorance. Om Shanti Shanti Shanti ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Gurcharan wrote: > > "Gurcharan" <gurcharan > > Hari Om ! > I apologize for such a silly question,but I am fairly new to the concept of > non-dualism and can't > seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once one realizes the Self and > sees only reality, > that not only the world disappears but also karma , rebirth and even dharma > ? So would it > be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma because there > is only one Self ? > Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and improper use of > terminology. Please > forgive my ignorance. > Om Shanti Shanti Shanti ! Hello Gurcharan, I'm just an ignorant in such things. But from my "experience", to use a word, you are more than correct in saying that there is no rebirth, no karma, etc... As for the reason why, i am sure that more knowledgeable person on this wonderful list will be able to answer your question. In all humility, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 --- Antoine <carrea wrote: > Antoine <carrea > > Gurcharan wrote: > > > > "Gurcharan" <gurcharan > > > > Hari Om ! > > I apologize for such a silly question,but I am > fairly new to the concept of > > non-dualism and can't > > seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once > one realizes the Self and > > sees only reality, > > that not only the world disappears but also karma > , rebirth and even dharma > > ? So would it > > be correct to say that in reality there is no > rebirth or karma because there > > is only one Self ? > > Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and > improper use of > > terminology. Please > > forgive my ignorance. > > Om Shanti Shanti Shanti ! > > Hello Gurcharan, > > I'm just an ignorant in such things. But from my > "experience", to use a > word, you are more than correct in saying that there > is no rebirth, am i not a spirit gaining and shedding bodies, living out the cosmic adventure to the rhythm of endless alphas and omegas? i do gain and shed bodies, being truly who i am, and the process is commonly dichotomized into a death and a rebirth. death is just the start of the rebirthing process. it is one process but it IS a process and it does happen and though i know my soul to be eternal, i know that this rebirthing WILL occur. of course birth as an initiating of the life process is an illusion. that is the flaw of causal thinking, linear causality to be more specific. there will be no end because there never was a beginning. no first cause. hi. i'm new here. no > karma, etc... karma is a collective result of the actions that you have participated in creating for yourself to live in. if you are going to be here for a million lifetimes, you might be just a little more aware of what you do because you are not going to escape the outcomes of your campaigns through the illusion of death. you will be back and it's all a matter of whether or not you are going to leave a mess for yourself or a bounty because of wisely planted seeds. do we want to survive in spite of our karma of thrive because of it? _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Hello Gurcharan: Welcome. There are no silly questions though we human beings often give silly answers . If by 'realize' you mean that one has achieved union with the Self then one is beyond karma, rebirth and even dharma. The challenge of course, lies in the space between knowing the Self and being the Self. Until one becomes completely the Self the challenges of karma etc. will continue to play out on the journey. Namaste, Linda Hari Om ! I apologize for such a silly question,but I am fairly new to the concept of non-dualism and can't seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once one realizes the Self and sees only reality, that not only the world disappears but also karma , rebirth and even dharma ? So would it be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma because there is only one Self ? Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and improper use of terminology. Please forgive my ignorance. Om Shanti Shanti Shanti ! ------ How many communities do you think join ONElist each week? More than 5,000! Create yours now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Gurcharan wrote: > Can it be said that once one realizes the Self and > sees only reality, > that not only the world disappears but also karma , rebirth and even dharma > ? So would it > be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma because there > is only one Self ? Hi Gurcharan, Imagine going to sleep and having a dream where each character in your dream is simply a manifestation or a fragment of who you really are. The sun rises and you wake up; where do all your dream characters go? (including the one you thought was you) David (dream character) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 1999 Report Share Posted June 13, 1999 Hi Gurcharan, Your question is far from being silly. For someone Self-realized, the analogy of karma is seeing a molehill so you won't stumble over it, whereas someone not Self-realized doesn't see the molehill and is likely to stumble repeatedly. When Self-realized, forget dharma as the "road" will lead to moksha and on attainment rebirth ends, as does karma, with the exception of the karma of one's present life (that can only affect the body). From a nondual perspective, it is right to say there is only Self and world as "just world" does not exist. A perspective is a perspective and nothing else; when Self-realized no more perspective is needed. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 > Hi Gurcharan, > > Imagine going to sleep and having a dream where each > character in your dream is > simply a manifestation or a fragment of who you > really are. The sun rises and > you wake up; where do all your dream characters go? > (including the one you > thought was you) > > David > (dream character) i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as someone i forgot that i was and say something like "whew - it seemed so real" _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ethan Stuart wrote: > > i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as someone i > forgot that i was and say something like "whew - it > seemed so real" > After you go 'OH SH********%'......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 At 10:17 AM 6/13/99 -0400, Gurcharan wrote: >"Gurcharan" <gurcharan > >Hari Om ! >I apologize for such a silly question,but I am fairly new to the concept of >non-dualism and can't seem to find the answer.Can it be said that once one >realizes the Self and sees only reality, that not only the world disappears >but also karma , rebirth and even dharma ? So would it >be correct to say that in reality there is no rebirth or karma >because there is only one Self ? >Again I apologize for my lack of understanding and improper use of >terminology. Please forgive my ignorance. Your question is quite welcome, it's really a blessing to hear sincere questions. We all learn from each other. Besides lively discussions, sincere questions are the main life-blood of these lists! Towards a way of looking at your question. Here's one way to think of it. Think of your true nature as the mirror. Think of the physical body/mind apparatus as an object reflected in the mirror. IF your question is "What happens to ME after death?" then this is like, "What happens to the mirror if one of the objects is no longer reflected there?" Another way: If your question is more "What happens to karma and reincarnation?" there are two ways to look at them. (1) WHAT is it that reincarnates? It is not the mirror that reincarnates, so in that sense YOU don't reincarnate. (2) After "realization," whatever disappears is not special, and in an ultimate sense not different from anything else. Karma and reincarnation n that sense are not different from schoolbusses and psychology. Not every non-dual teaching entails karma/reincarnation. Cf. Nisargadatta's I AM THAT, for example. Greetings, and welcome to the list!! --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 1999 Report Share Posted June 14, 1999 Ethan Stuart wrote: > i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as someone i > forgot that i was and say something like "whew - it > seemed so real" One one level we don't necessarily have to wait to get smashed by a bus. Are you familiar with lucid dreaming? Practicing devotion to awareness could be likened to lucid dreaming while 'awake'. Sweet Dreams, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 --- Greg Goode <goode wrote: > Greg Goode <goode > > At 08:34 AM 6/14/99 -0700, Ethan Stuart wrote: > > >i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > >smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as > someone i > >forgot that i was and say something like "whew - it > >seemed so real" > > You don't know that this isn't happening now.... actually, i strongly suspect that it is. every time i feel i have awakened from some sort of sleep i must be sure to come around to the fact that this, too, is a dream, lest i stop awakening. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 --- "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 wrote: > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Ethan Stuart wrote: > > > > i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > > smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as > someone i > > forgot that i was and say something like "whew - > it > > seemed so real" > > > > After you go 'OH SH********%'......... yeah. i'll probably start my day with more vigor than usual, as a result. not bad i guess for just having died. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 --- David Bozzi <david.bozzi wrote: > David Bozzi <david.bozzi > > Ethan Stuart wrote: > > > i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > > smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as > someone i > > forgot that i was and say something like "whew - > it > > seemed so real" > > One one level we don't necessarily have to wait to > get smashed by a bus. > Are you familiar with lucid dreaming? > i am familiar with lucidity, though it usually happens to me while 'awake' these episodes have come in all shapes and sizes but i do not usually dream in this way - a few times. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 1999 Report Share Posted June 17, 1999 Ethan Stuart wrote: > Ethan Stuart <sensuant > > --- Greg Goode <goode wrote: > > Greg Goode <goode > > > > At 08:34 AM 6/14/99 -0700, Ethan Stuart wrote: > > > > >i always loved this idea. i think if i ever get > > >smacked by a bus i'm going to just awaken as > > someone i > > >forgot that i was and say something like "whew - it > > >seemed so real" > > > > You don't know that this isn't happening now.... > > actually, i strongly suspect that it is. every time i > feel i have awakened from some sort of sleep i must be > sure to come around to the fact that this, too, is a > dream, lest i stop awakening. > It's quite likely that everything that could possibly happen happens, all the time. That reality is continuously expanding like the mandlebrot set . With us ordinary mortals only able to experience an infinitely small part of it because at every juncture we take only one path. Whereas the path has always been wildly dividing and redividing. andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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