Guest guest Posted June 27, 1999 Report Share Posted June 27, 1999 Hi! This selection of posts from June 25 edition of Nonduality Salon is lengthy and rich. It starts off with a few links. And this Digest includes a guest post from the Donmeh list, introduced by Melody. An easy way to get in touch with both Melody and me is to send mail to nondualdigest-owner . And remember, we each get a copy of your letter. I'm sending a copy of this Digest to the Nonduality Salon and to list as well. To to this Nondual Digest, please go to <//nondualdigest> To to , please go to <//> To to Nonduality Salon please go to <//nondualitysalon> Thanks, Jerry ************************************************************************ I know it's a band-aid, but it's certainly harmless and won't cost you dime one. <http://www.thehungersite.com> >From all appearances it's entirely legitimate and tithes those who can best afford it. ---Bruce ___________________ The Nonduality website may now be accessed through the following URL: <http://www.nonduality.com> ____________________ Just in case any of you have tried to pull up my Aphorisms, if your browser did not show the title as a link, the URL is: <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/4216/humnat.html> OM shantih, Bob B. ______________________ Photos of some of the people you have come to know here, are at the following web page: <http://www.nonduality.com/saloners.htm> _____________________ ....reminds me of a conversation I read about between the Dalhai Lama and a monk who had been in Tibet all these years. The monk mentioned that he had experienced 'dangers.' The D.L. asked what dangers he meant. The monk said, "The danger of losing compassion for the Chinese." Xan _____________________ Xan ----Papaji from Wake up and Roar Question: "When I am concentrated on no-thought the ego is not there, but when I return to thought the latent ego returns." Papaji: "In this particular case, when you entered into this thoughtless state (from ego to egoless state) you made an effort. To arrive into egolessness, to Self, to light, you have fastened yourself with a rope, with the ego, by making an effort. This rope, the ego, will pull you back. Now don’t tie. No effort and no rope. Then enter into this effortlessness. It is already there! There is no entrance and no exit either! Exist and entrance are the past and the future. So I say, break the link with this past and future. And how will you come out? Everything is truth. Who will call you back? There is no ego. Ego has been dumped on you by someone else. Your parent, society and the church. That’s all. There is no ego. Egolessness, freedom is your birthright. It is your inheritance of happiness. This is why you seek it. Everything that you do, you do for happiness, peace, and love." ____________________ from Marcia: People who have gone ahead on the road within can lend me a compass and a road map. Granted the map is not the territory but it doesn't hurt does it? I have to travel the road myself. No one can do that for me. Five days...... The first day I went down the road and fell in a pothole and couldn't get out. A friend came along and helped me out. The second day I went down the road and fell in a pothole and thrashed around and remembered to call for help. The third day I went down the road and fell in the pothole and thrashed around and remembered how to get out by myself. The fourth day I went down the road and saw the pothole ahead of time and avoided falling in it. The fifth day I took a different road altogether. ____________________ Forget the roads. Stay Home. Home is where the Heart is. ---Harsha _____________________ Well if it doesn't make any difference to you, then it doesn't. But what I am saying is that hopefully sometime something will make a difference to you and you will decide to do something about it. And until such time, it is all just intellectual. As Da has put it, sooner or later your life and the teaching coincide. It becomes more than just a hobby. It's knowing that you have really come to the end of your ropes and you have no alternatives. As long as you can get up and walk around the room, you will do it. Some day it will become important enough to you that walking around the room is out of the question. So until such time, keep walking around the room doing whatever it is that you are doing. Judi _____________________ The major part of expectations is implicit; one isn't aware of their existence. When waking up the next day in an igloo at the North pole instead of in your bed, you 'll know what that means. The "default" expectation is for "life as usual" to continue. When confronted with discontinuity, disappointment or grief follows. Living "now" means to be aware, as opposed to "life as usual". Habit mind is tricky... Be aware, Jan _________________ Indeed, the numerous perceptions here at NDS, and perhaps metaphysical and religious thought generally, may reduce to: 1.) Neti-neti, the reductionists, having logical conclusion in nihilism. 2.) "Yeti-yeti" <g>, the inclusionists, having logical conclusion in radical pantheism. and, 3.) The abiders; towards harmonious balance of all perception. JL __________________ Marcia: My friend has a t shirt. On one side it says: All of the Above and on the other side it says: None of the Above Sam: The thing I like about the inclusive rather than the exclusive is... it makes it much harder to step on 'an ant', kill 'a spider' or eat 'a cow', not to mention how much harder it makes it to harm 'another'... 'human being'. ____________________ If we need to be practicing something, I'm in a world of shit. :-) Judi _____________________ Truth is ... You can 'know' your own partial aspect of Truth .. Truth is fluid, continuous, everchanging ... The moment you put words around fluid Truth you impose a boundary, a separation of Truth from itself .... and so you have thought ... Thought is not Truth ... for every thought there is opposite thought ... for all knowledge there is a lack of knowledge ... Learning is the aquisition of thought ... The thought process is scientifically measureable Truth is not measureable ... because the measurement process involves the projection of thought which will influence that being measured ... Study will bias thought with the interpretative filters of the student .... words will create perceptual barriers according to the learned meanings of the words ... the word is the expression of Thought... Truth is ... Man created God ... from thought ... If you had the thought ... does the thought have you ...? The Truth always is, was, and shall be for ever more ... constant yet changing ... The door that needs a key is an illusion ... >From one came two, from two came three, from three came ten thousand other things ... (Tao) ---Christopher ____________________ Like a finger pointing to the moon, concepts of God-Realization may indeed be helpful, until one is ready to drop away all conceptualizing. I'm beginning to realize the essence of the Judeo-Christian *concept* of God-Realization, and the extent it speaks to me. To me, the J-C concept (and perhaps even Gnostic?) is that there is a seed of God implanted within each of us. (Tho 'details' of how this happens varies...) It is then the 'work' of a spiritual aspirant to find that seed (or spark)of God within, to nurture it and focus upon it such, that it grows and expands beyond our 'imaginings', and until we surrender life as we know it, to that Presence radiating 'thru us'...which we recognize to be greater than us, individually. And for those who dare to go further, there is the recognition that the Presence simply IS, as identification with self falls away. Allowing myself to simply 'sink into' this conceptualization, which resonates so well inwardly, I have been delighting in reading many of Yakov Leibs postings of the Donmeh concerning God Realization. (Many of which I never bothered then to read, but simply filed away. <s>) Now as I read them, I read them much like one who is reading a great novel....sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for the next chapter to begin. :-) Currently on the Donmeh list, he is beginning another series called, "Impediments to Knowing God." As a background, he sent this reposting of an earlier offering. I found it rather fascinating, which parallels my own experience thus far: ---Melody ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yakov.Leib.haKohain [DONMEH] Opening the Window to the Tree of Life Dear Chaverim, There is a window between the Psyche and the Ego that is shut: THE FIRST REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego does not know that it is there. This is the condition of MALKHUT, the 10th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE SECOND REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego, even knowing that it is there, does not wish to open it. This is the condition of YESOD, the 9th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE THIRD REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego, knowing it is there and wishing to open it, does not know how to do so. This is the condition of HOD, the 8th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE FOURTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, and knowing how -- is too large to pass through to the other side. This is the condition of NETZACH, the 7th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE FIFTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, and being small enough to pass through to the other side -- is too weak to withstand the forces it will encounter there. This is the condition of TIFERET, the 6th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE SIXTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass through, and having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter on the other side -- does not know where to turn when gets there. This is the condition of GEBURAH, the 5th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE SEVENTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter on the other side, and knowing where to turn when it gets there -- has not informed the Others of its arrival. This is the condition of CHESED, the 4th Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE EIGHTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, and having informed the Others of its arrival -- doubts that it is really there. This is the condition of BINAH, the 3rd Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE NINTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, having informed the Others of its arrival, and having no doubts that it is there -- hesitates to come before the Throne of Glory. This is the condition of CHOKMAH, the 2nd Sefirah of the Tree of Life. THE TENTH REASON the window remains shut is because the Ego -- knowing it is there, wishing to open it, knowing how, being small enough to pass through, having the strength to withstand the forces it will encounter on the other side, knowing where to turn when it gets there, having informed the Others of its arrival, having no doubts that it is there, and coming before the Throne of Glory -- has not yet been called by the Holy King, blessed be He. This is the condition of KETER, the 1st Sefirah of the Tree of Life. Omain v'Omain, Yakov Leib haKohain, Ph.D. __________________ To cross a wide, flowing river an ant had climbed onto the back of a water buffalo. Half-way across the ant thought, "I don't like having to be dependent." So he jumped off into the swiftly moving water. Non-dual theorists may tell you there is no river to cross, but I am a pragmatist, not a theorist. I will do whatever works to transform my awareness back to its natural original condition. The question is, what do you want? If you want to awaken to the wholeness of yourself you will welcome whatever comes to you for that. If you want to main- tain an identity that you are dependent or independent, then that is the loop in which you will remain. If you're not sure which of the people, practices, etc. showing up for you now will take you there, stop trying to figure it out and rest in your heart. The songs all say it, your heart does lead rightly. Xan ______________________ This is how I see it: Nonduality doesn't exist. It's just a way of accepting that there is something rather than nothing. It's an "as-if" - the highest ethic. When I finally come to terms w/the fact that there's a 'me' out there, & people & things, & women to dance with - when I surrender, Nonduality happily gives way for the most unnoticed creature & the most meaningless event that comes my way. ---Toon Thank you for saying this Toon. I smiled and felt happy when I read it. I GUESS - it may depend on whether one is coming to or going from nonduality...and once you can give up everything else for nonduality..you may then easily give up the "official nonduality position" for anything that comes along.... I have no idea if this is close to what you meant, but my mind started humming along to the tune of "I got plenty of nothing ..and nothing's plenty for me.." It's a catchy tune and I like it, tho perhaps totally meaningless. It certainly requires nor expects any particular response. ---Glo _____________________ Neti-neti has to be pursued until no further reduction is possible. This means even a name like Self differs from the "real", because Self can only make sense if there is a no-self. If a name has to be used, the "Unnamable" is as close as one can get; I remember it from some Gnostic writings. >From another perspective, excluding all could be an effort to paint a picture of nirvikalpa samadhi whereas including all could be the effort to paint a picture of sahaja samadhi. Yet these pictures are wrong, because in nirvikalpa samadhi there isn't any thought and in sahaja samadhi the thought of "I" won't arise; "I" is only used due to the constraints of language. The point is, even if the pictures are "right" from the perspective of "realizers", they can induce false concepts, raise expectations etc. Another way to convey this is that if everything is included, the consequence must be that "everything included" has lost its meaning so "inclusion" no longer exists. There is no longer a possibility to verify; this possibility now is included as well. Likewise, when everything is excluded, the possibility to verify this is excluded so exclusion doesn't exist. Again, this shows both the danger and the relative uselessness of descriptions. ---Jan ____________________ The following exchanged is repeated from yesterday, and expanded upon by Dan... It was stated: ....objective reality is demonstratable from the perspective of relationship. For example, if you gather together a thousand people, and they all observe a tree and agree that the tree is there, it can be surmised that at the very least SOMETHING is there. In fact, that is how human beings come by their idea of objective reality -- through relationship with others. Without that relationship, all would be subjective. Andrew responded: This is not objectivity, it's inter-subjectivity, and there are fundamental assumptions underlying it. -Reality is assumed to present itself to the individual such that the individual and the observed object are distinct and separate. However, the experience of many is that on deeper examination this subject object distinction fades away. -It is also assumed that underlying this apparent reality, there is a purely abstract rational construct, which is then called 'reality' and what is perceived is called 'appearance', then if many individuals agree about appearance it is assumed to reflect reality. Also there is group pressure, we learn to see things as others see them, and anyone who does not is considered crazy or lost in fantasy or hopelessly romantic and ignored. There is no logical basis for saying that because all agree on a thing it is any less subjective than if only one perceives it. Dan responds: When doing research from an intersubjective perspective, it is considered very useful to gather data from diverse perspectives of a situation. This kind of "objectivity" is called "triangulation," probably because the process is similar to taking measurements from three perspectives to determine a position. The goal of this triangulation isn't to try to say what is "really there," but to form a more comprehensive picture of the multiple realities inherent in a situation. The researcher or researchers then integrate these data into a hopefully useful research perspective. Thus, intersubjectivity does have its own kind of "objectivity." Subjectivity and objectivity arise in relation to each other. Consensus plays a part in "reality formation," as does the purely individual subjectivity and its "reality formation." If there were no consensus about Ramana Maharshi, none of his views would have been transmitted and no one would be discussing him. For me, relationship is indeed an important aspect of reality formation, and Relationship and One are not-two. I don't take any of these relationally formed realities as ultimate "Reality," to me collective or individual, and objective or subjective - reality perceptions are always "the past." Yet, without the past, we would not be having this discussion, so "the past" has its uses, just as illusion expresses creativity of One. ************************************************************************ There is only one day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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