Guest guest Posted June 28, 1980 Report Share Posted June 28, 1980 At 12:22 28/06/99 -0300, you wrote: >umbada (Jerry M. Katz) > <snip> Hi Jerry, Greetings from the Chronosynclastic Infundibulum. > > >> The reason I mention this is that there are many people on lists who >> read and post rarely. > > >The feeling is that they are going to be judged or hassled in some way? >That could be. So are we to communicate in a way that makes timid ones >feel safe? Is that why we're here? Harsha runs this list and sets the >tone. No one's afraid of Harsha. (Except, of course, Jan.) Hi Jerry. I think the issue revolves around a slightly different axis: this list does indeed reflect the tone of Harsha, and is a place of welcome for many who feel unsure of their certainties . And of course people must and should express their being as befits their inner urges, as long as they are sincere and heartfelt. (Harsha, if I'm taking a liberty here, let me know) There have been strenuous exchanges here: what perhaps Christiana is saying is that it is something to learn, this Ahimsa. When greater knowledge and wisdom manifests, it must eventually face it's heart. And that heart is all our hearts. We Owe each other so much. The joy of this, seems to me, is being able to give this to each other, in compassion. How to do this? Perhaps those who feel "timid" are aware of the enormity of this task. Perhaps they don't realise how simple it could be... how would they learn? > > >> It seems that the essence of the predominance of >> posts is of the 'top of the mountain' (so to speak.. likely a very non >> non-dual image). What I mean by this is that the 'wisdom' of the >> transcendance is spoken of often here and while it has *enormous* value >> as instruction and inspiration, it is, as yet, not quite where many of >> us likely live our daily lives. > > >It is being said that the 'wisdom' is separate from where we live our >daily lives? My understanding is that the kind of people that spend time >on these lists incorporate knowing of the Self into everything they do. >It isn't a case of 'Okay I'm at work now, what wisdom do you have for >me?'. Fair point. However, there are different mental "sets" that one enters in order to carry out the fetching wood and carrying water. Eventually all is incorporated, but let's allow that it is a process of unfolding. Again, how to do this? > >Again I hear separation being imposed where there is none, even as >judgment, dismissal, intellectualization, etc., were imposed at the >start of this letter. I find this interesting: C was mentioning how perhaps others might feel nervous of the responses they might receive, in the light of their own journeys, and the new spaces they encounter. There does seem to be an easy answer in saying that all is one, therefore what's the problem? With respect, a man I respected greatly once said to me "change your step when you meet a stranger". Now he didn't say "be someone other than you", but be flexible enough to include another's world in the love of your own. > <long snip> >> One enormous value for me about these lists is that I am continuously >> given the opportunity to catch "myself" contracted around an idea or an >> emotion.. to Witness the release of the binding and the increased >> spaciousness. > > >That is the main purpose of these lists, in my opinion. Bless you! And the horse you rode in on. > > >> like it fits within the matrix of acceptable nondual tenets, it might be >> withheld or slapped down. > > >Ideally, and through the process of creative writing and reference to >spiritual understanding, the daily grind of thoughts and emotions is >converted into a refined substance that all can use for purposes of >elevation. > >Better to quote Rumi than to complain about rheumatism, I always say. The Lover is everywhere... > >If someone's afraid their words won't fit in, then they already don't >fit in, because what is there to be afraid of? Who is mean and nasty >here? And if anyone is, there are flocks of people ready to support the >one who has been inappropriately addressed. But the fact is, we can only >be nice to a point. At some you point you have to say, "Look." And at >some point a person has to be left alone with their fear and hurt. >That's a reality. I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier comment. ("nice"?) > >> There may be 'no there there'.. but I reside *here*. >> >> Submitted with respect for the spectrum of the illusion of the many >> within the One (and hoping Greg, that I have not strayed too far from >> the intent of your post.. or Harsha from the intent of your list). Bless the illusion and its purpose. Thanks Christiana for the poetry of your thoughts. "There's no sides, we're all in this together" (Spike Milligan, blessings be upon him). Love Robert >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >How has ONElist changed your life? >Share your story with us at > >------ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1980 Report Share Posted June 28, 1980 At 09:39 28/06/99 -0400, you wrote: >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > > >Christiana P. Duranczyk [cpd] >Saturday, June 26, 1999 4:04 PM > > levels and translations (aka Ahimsa and Western >Ethics) > >"Christiana P. Duranczyk" <cpd > > >with love, >Christiana Hi Just something Amanda Erhart wrote on the K list that seems to tie in rather well re: Christiana's post... > The ego needs reassurance to open up to the force to start letting go. But some time or another there will be no fear and no ego that needs reassurance. Best regards, Amanda. Anyone recognise that place? love Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 Christiana P. Duranczyk [cpd] Saturday, June 26, 1999 4:04 PM levels and translations (aka Ahimsa and Western Ethics) "Christiana P. Duranczyk" <cpd On these lists, I've observed many who seem to claim that they embody a state of non-separate awareness, who therefore, seem to assume they are operating from the 'phenomenology' of Ahimsa. Within certain moments, their light truly points to what is Known. >From the, albeit perhaps, limited platform of my observatory... I have also, however, witnessed judgement, one-upmanship, dismissal, intellectualization, and an assumed adherence to (what appears to be) formula even while speaking of no self, or no boundaries. These are swords which wound until we know no-thing. I still, alas, largely reside in a world of things and selves.. in spite of my Self. I have wondered at the ground of Ahimsa within the appearance of these wounds. Is there an ethic which traverses levels of Awareness? The reason I mention this is that there are many people on lists who read and post rarely. It seems that the essence of the predominance of posts is of the 'top of the mountain' (so to speak.. likely a very non non-dual image). What I mean by this is that the 'wisdom' of the transcendance is spoken of often here and while it has *enormous* value as instruction and inspiration, it is, as yet, not quite where many of us likely live our daily lives. In a dialogue with a friend who is a Zen priest, this topic of levels and translation came up. He was amused by how most Westerners approaching Buddhism coming from Judeo-Christian backgrounds, thinking that they have eschewed their history, are nonetheless attempting to morph Buddhism into the very patterns of ritual and rules and social matrices which they think they have left behind. In the book _The Monk and the Philosopher_, Jean Francois Revel states that perhaps, in years to come, the greatest significance of this period in history will be the infusion of the Eastern practice of meditation into the Western practice of Logic. We may, indeed, be participating in a soup pot large enough to include and dissolve all idea strucures. So, it might be with this leaning into (or relaxing into) non-dual Awareness or the facets of understanding related to the phenomenology of Ahimsa. We each approach each moment from within the lens of our Present and likely the imprint of our past. In Essence, this linearity is nonexistant; in the appearance of *now*, it is, however, where I find I am, and is absolutely perfect. I approach Ahimsa.. clearly from within the matrix of my imprinting related to the compassionate heart. This is not precept, but a direct Knowing of the Essence which flows through me and within which I dissolve. When I dissolve, I taste the fire of Love. More often than not, however, I need re-minders (practice) as the fear-imprints of acculturated self are pervasive. The question might be, is my orientation within Ahimsa 'pure' or a translation? If the end result is the same.. does it matter? To another's translation, I may appear to be mired in the the duality which *needs* separation for one to be in relation to other... or for intellect to be in relation with compassion .. or for male to be in relation to female. I say... "just so" ... in tandem with "not so". Just so.. in my daily bread of grist... not so when the bread has become com-union. This, for me, is the trajectory of personal ethics. One enormous value for me about these lists is that I am continuously given the opportunity to catch "myself" contracted around an idea or an emotion.. to Witness the release of the binding and the increased spaciousness. I wonder, however, if there might be a reticence to speak about the ideas and emotions we still catch ourselves within (from the spectrum of our individual templates), due to the appearance of the contraction around the "top of the mountain". In other words.. if it doesn't sound like it fits within the matrix of acceptable nondual tenets, it might be withheld or slapped down. There may be 'no there there'.. but I reside *here*. Submitted with respect for the spectrum of the illusion of the many within the One (and hoping Greg, that I have not strayed too far from the intent of your post.. or Harsha from the intent of your list). with love, Christiana Thank you Christiana for a very thoughtful and lovely post reflecting your insight, wisdom and elegance of expression. I remember some months ago when a teenager signed on to the list and wanted to know about Hinduism. You spoke to this young person with great kindness and compassion and offered your private assistance in helping her identify some good resources on Eastern philosophy. In many ways, I have noticed over some period of time, that you embody the principles of Ahimsa and compassion in your interacting with others. Because of you caring and giving of yourself, you are widely admired and respected on many of the nondual lists that you are on. Although you speak only now and then, your words have great power and sensitivity Christiana. You always identify the various subtle nuances that underlie interactions and discussions on these lists and yet you manage to speak directly and not obfuscate or hide behind inferences which can be taken many ways. You raise some important and difficult issues Christiana. Perhaps a central one is that you see elitism on these lists among some individuals reflected in clever dialogues and one up manship and a lot of nondual cliches. Perhaps you also feel that this inhibits certain other individuals from speaking or even chokes some conversations from taking place at all. You might be right Christiana, but I do not know for sure. There are so many different types of personalities and so much available on the Internet that probably every one finds what they are comfortable with and what they are looking for. Some might find that here as well. I am certainly grateful to have the company of people as insightful and caring as you Christiana. I bow to your wisdom and compassion. With love Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 > "Christiana P. Duranczyk" <cpd > > On these lists, I've observed many who seem to claim that they embody a > state of non-separate awareness, who therefore, seem to assume they are > operating from the 'phenomenology' of Ahimsa. Within certain moments, > their light truly points to what is Known. > >From the, albeit perhaps, limited platform of my observatory... I have > also, however, witnessed judgement, one-upmanship, dismissal, > intellectualization, and an assumed adherence to (what appears to be) > formula even while speaking of no self, or no boundaries. These are > swords which wound until we know no-thing. I still, alas, largely reside > in a world of things and selves.. in spite of my Self. I have wondered > at the ground of Ahimsa within the appearance of these wounds. Is there > an ethic which traverses levels of Awareness? Hi Christiana, What is being seen is being interpreted as judgment, one-upsmanship, intellectualization, and so on. Whenever anyone utters anything, there are several other angles at which that utterance may be viewed. When another angle is heard it may be interpreted as judgment or dismissal or something else, but it may also be viewed as the joy of expounding, expanding, confessing. One may read transcriptions of talks between Gurus and devotees, and find the same "witnessed judgement, one-upmanship, dismissal, intellectualization, and an assumed adherence to (what appears to be) formula even while speaking of no self, or no boundaries," if that's what one is looking for. There is a circumstance in which one will not see that. For example, Nisargadatta was notorious for looking at a person when they entered his abode and sending that one away with a flick of his hand. Some would interpret that as dismissal. Others would not. > The reason I mention this is that there are many people on lists who > read and post rarely. The feeling is that they are going to be judged or hassled in some way? That could be. So are we to communicate in a way that makes timid ones feel safe? Is that why we're here? Harsha runs this list and sets the tone. No one's afraid of Harsha. (Except, of course, Jan.) > It seems that the essence of the predominance of > posts is of the 'top of the mountain' (so to speak.. likely a very non > non-dual image). What I mean by this is that the 'wisdom' of the > transcendance is spoken of often here and while it has *enormous* value > as instruction and inspiration, it is, as yet, not quite where many of > us likely live our daily lives. It is being said that the 'wisdom' is separate from where we live our daily lives? My understanding is that the kind of people that spend time on these lists incorporate knowing of the Self into everything they do. It isn't a case of 'Okay I'm at work now, what wisdom do you have for me?'. Again I hear separation being imposed where there is none, even as judgment, dismissal, intellectualization, etc., were imposed at the start of this letter. > In a dialogue with a friend who is a Zen priest, this topic of levels > and translation came up. He was amused by how most Westerners > approaching Buddhism coming from Judeo-Christian backgrounds, thinking > that they have eschewed their history, are nonetheless attempting to > morph Buddhism into the very patterns of ritual and rules and social > matrices which they think they have left behind. One might say that this Zen priest is exercising one or more of the following: 'witnessed judgement, one-upmanship, dismissal, intellectualization, and an assumed adherence to (what appears to be) formula even while speaking of no self, or no boundaries." And if that is not seen, why not? Why, suddenly, has the evidence for it evaporated? >In the book _The Monk > and the Philosopher_, Jean Francois Revel states that perhaps, in years > to come, the greatest significance of this period in history will be the > infusion of the Eastern practice of meditation into the Western practice > of Logic. We may, indeed, be participating in a soup pot large enough > to include and dissolve all idea strucures. Yes. > So, it might be with this leaning into (or relaxing into) non-dual > Awareness or the facets of understanding related to the phenomenology of > Ahimsa. We each approach each moment from within the lens of our Present > and likely the imprint of our past. In Essence, this linearity is > nonexistant; in the appearance of *now*, it is, however, where I find I > am, and is absolutely perfect. I want to ask, Then how come the evidences of separation? However you get into it below: > I approach Ahimsa.. clearly from within the matrix of my imprinting > related to the compassionate heart. This is not precept, but a direct > Knowing of the Essence which flows through me and within which I > dissolve. When I dissolve, I taste the fire of Love. More often than > not, however, I need re-minders (practice) as the fear-imprints of > acculturated self are pervasive. The question might be, is my > orientation within Ahimsa 'pure' or a translation? If the end result is > the same.. does it matter? > > To another's translation, I may appear to be mired in the the duality > which *needs* separation for one to be in relation to other... or for > intellect to be in relation with compassion .. or for male to be in > relation to female. I say... "just so" ... in tandem with "not so". > Just so.. in my daily bread of grist... not so when the bread has become > com-union. This, for me, is the trajectory of personal ethics. Thank you. > One enormous value for me about these lists is that I am continuously > given the opportunity to catch "myself" contracted around an idea or an > emotion.. to Witness the release of the binding and the increased > spaciousness. That is the main purpose of these lists, in my opinion. > I wonder, however, if there might be a reticence to speak about the > ideas and emotions we still catch ourselves within (from the spectrum of > our individual templates), due to the appearance of the contraction > around the "top of the mountain". In other words.. if it doesn't sound > like it fits within the matrix of acceptable nondual tenets, it might be > withheld or slapped down. Ideally, and through the process of creative writing and reference to spiritual understanding, the daily grind of thoughts and emotions is converted into a refined substance that all can use for purposes of elevation. Better to quote Rumi than to complain about rheumatism, I always say. If someone's afraid their words won't fit in, then they already don't fit in, because what is there to be afraid of? Who is mean and nasty here? And if anyone is, there are flocks of people ready to support the one who has been inappropriately addressed. But the fact is, we can only be nice to a point. At some you point you have to say, "Look." And at some point a person has to be left alone with their fear and hurt. That's a reality. > There may be 'no there there'.. but I reside *here*. > > Submitted with respect for the spectrum of the illusion of the many > within the One (and hoping Greg, that I have not strayed too far from > the intent of your post.. or Harsha from the intent of your list). I bow to Greg and Harsha and don't think about their intent because I know it already embraces you and me and the joy of our gathering. The words don't mean anything. Love, Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 At 12:22 PM 6/28/99 -0300, Jerry M. Katz wrote: >I bow to Greg and Harsha and don't think about their intent because I >know it already embraces you and me and the joy of our gathering. The >words don't mean anything. I bow to you too, Jerry, and agree on all counts. --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 1999 Report Share Posted June 28, 1999 At 12:22 PM 6/28/99 -0300, Jerry M. Katz wrote: >Whenever anyone utters anything, there >are several other angles at which that utterance may be viewed. When >another angle is heard it may be interpreted as judgment or dismissal or >something else, but it may also be viewed as the joy of expounding, >expanding, confessing. I agree with this too. My last post on this might seem to be a bit harsh, as though misunderstanding were the main reason for this mountain-top kind of speech. I didn't mean to imply that. Like Jerry says, there is also the expounding expanding, confessing kind of expression. This is like pure radiance. Nietzsche once said that radiant people have a certain gift of giving, the way a piece of polished god shines. He called it the "Schenkende Tugend," or the "gift-giving gift." Many on this list have that gift-giving gift. Regards, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Gloria shares: I agree with Harsha that Christiana has shared from the heart her feelings that are very clear. What I often get from the posts is that people have a hard time sharing and speaking from the heart instead of about non-duality where the intellect often comes in and takes over since there is an idea or thought form about what is acceptable to talk about. It isn't about who understands or has knowledge about this or that, but rather the energy of the life which is lived...which is a quality of being. That which is love/non-dual is a pure frequency which doesn't need explanations but rather the love that just flows so naturally because of its presence and connections which can only be made, carried and continued through this fine pure thread of Divine Will, the aspect of union which is non dual. Beingness...means justs being who you are and flowing with what comes to you, this is also about being a support system for others who are in their walk. Often this process has times when it helps to have another...the beloved in another is another way of saying it...to reflect with and through. On the heart list we are that for each other so that we open the doors up to just be in the moment and flowing with whatever is coming, this can only be accomplished in the spirit of love/nonduality & awarness that higher purpose is being served. To do this requires a commitment from each person to be open and spontaneous and to understand that each person is doing the same thing. In this spirit...that non/dual force will manifest itself through those who have surrendered to the dance and in essence live the walk. One doesn't box spirit it, instead the doors are opened wide and that which is... manifests. Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: > "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > > > Christiana P. Duranczyk [cpd] > Saturday, June 26, 1999 4:04 PM > > levels and translations (aka Ahimsa and Western > Ethics) > > "Christiana P. Duranczyk" <cpd > > On these lists, I've observed many who seem to claim that they embody a > state of non-separate awareness, who therefore, seem to assume they are > operating from the 'phenomenology' of Ahimsa. Within certain moments, > their light truly points to what is Known. > > >From the, albeit perhaps, limited platform of my observatory... I have > also, however, witnessed judgement, one-upmanship, dismissal, > intellectualization, and an assumed adherence to (what appears to be) > formula even while speaking of no self, or no boundaries. These are > swords which wound until we know no-thing. I still, alas, largely reside > in a world of things and selves.. in spite of my Self. I have wondered > at the ground of Ahimsa within the appearance of these wounds. Is there > an ethic which traverses levels of Awareness? > > The reason I mention this is that there are many people on lists who > read and post rarely. It seems that the essence of the predominance of > posts is of the 'top of the mountain' (so to speak.. likely a very non > non-dual image). What I mean by this is that the 'wisdom' of the > transcendance is spoken of often here and while it has *enormous* value > as instruction and inspiration, it is, as yet, not quite where many of > us likely live our daily lives. > > In a dialogue with a friend who is a Zen priest, this topic of levels > and translation came up. He was amused by how most Westerners > approaching Buddhism coming from Judeo-Christian backgrounds, thinking > that they have eschewed their history, are nonetheless attempting to > morph Buddhism into the very patterns of ritual and rules and social > matrices which they think they have left behind. In the book _The Monk > and the Philosopher_, Jean Francois Revel states that perhaps, in years > to come, the greatest significance of this period in history will be the > infusion of the Eastern practice of meditation into the Western practice > of Logic. We may, indeed, be participating in a soup pot large enough > to include and dissolve all idea strucures. > > So, it might be with this leaning into (or relaxing into) non-dual > Awareness or the facets of understanding related to the phenomenology of > Ahimsa. We each approach each moment from within the lens of our Present > and likely the imprint of our past. In Essence, this linearity is > nonexistant; in the appearance of *now*, it is, however, where I find I > am, and is absolutely perfect. > > I approach Ahimsa.. clearly from within the matrix of my imprinting > related to the compassionate heart. This is not precept, but a direct > Knowing of the Essence which flows through me and within which I > dissolve. When I dissolve, I taste the fire of Love. More often than > not, however, I need re-minders (practice) as the fear-imprints of > acculturated self are pervasive. The question might be, is my > orientation within Ahimsa 'pure' or a translation? If the end result is > the same.. does it matter? > > To another's translation, I may appear to be mired in the the duality > which *needs* separation for one to be in relation to other... or for > intellect to be in relation with compassion .. or for male to be in > relation to female. I say... "just so" ... in tandem with "not so". > Just so.. in my daily bread of grist... not so when the bread has become > com-union. This, for me, is the trajectory of personal ethics. > > One enormous value for me about these lists is that I am continuously > given the opportunity to catch "myself" contracted around an idea or an > emotion.. to Witness the release of the binding and the increased > spaciousness. > > I wonder, however, if there might be a reticence to speak about the > ideas and emotions we still catch ourselves within (from the spectrum of > our individual templates), due to the appearance of the contraction > around the "top of the mountain". In other words.. if it doesn't sound > like it fits within the matrix of acceptable nondual tenets, it might be > withheld or slapped down. > > There may be 'no there there'.. but I reside *here*. > > Submitted with respect for the spectrum of the illusion of the many > within the One (and hoping Greg, that I have not strayed too far from > the intent of your post.. or Harsha from the intent of your list). > > with love, > Christiana > > Thank you Christiana for a very thoughtful and lovely post reflecting your > insight, wisdom and elegance of expression. I remember some months ago when > a teenager signed on to the list and wanted to know about Hinduism. You > spoke to this young person with great kindness and compassion and offered > your private assistance in helping her identify some good resources on > Eastern philosophy. In many ways, I have noticed over some period of time, > that you embody the principles of Ahimsa and compassion in your interacting > with others. Because of you caring and giving of yourself, you are widely > admired and respected on many of the nondual lists that you are on. Although > you speak only now and then, your words have great power and sensitivity > Christiana. You always identify the various subtle nuances that underlie > interactions and discussions on these lists and yet you manage to speak > directly and not obfuscate or hide behind inferences which can be taken many > ways. You raise some important and difficult issues Christiana. Perhaps a > central one is that you see elitism on these lists among some individuals > reflected in clever dialogues and one up manship and a lot of nondual > cliches. Perhaps you also feel that this inhibits certain other individuals > from speaking or even chokes some conversations from taking place at all. > You might be right Christiana, but I do not know for sure. There are so many > different types of personalities and so much available on the Internet that > probably every one finds what they are comfortable with and what they are > looking for. Some might find that here as well. I am certainly grateful to > have the company of people as insightful and caring as you Christiana. I bow > to your wisdom and compassion. > > With love > Harsha > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Find people who care about what you care about. > > At ONElist: your connection to community. > > ------ -- Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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