Digest: July 2, 1999

[Guest guest]

While we all praise the efforts of our founding fathers in getting "liberty"

for us, the fact is that the very people did NOT give liberty to their

slaves!! That is a painful part of history that CANNOT be ignored when

viewing that time period, although this should not undermine the fact that

these were very unusual, dedicated and true patriots who sought and

successfully obtained "liberty" for themselves and other people who came from

Europe.

[Guest guest]

A copy of this is being sent to . Subscription

information is at the end of the post.

 

Happy Fourth of July, Americans. It's a celebration heard

throughout the world. We start out with a Fourth of July

contribution from Xan. See you in the Salon...

 

---Jerry

 

 

_____________________

 

 

 

This is not non-duality but it is about suffering and

sacrifice and not

compromising.

 

 

"THE COST OF LIBERTY....Just take a moment.

 

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who

signed the

Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by

the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their

sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons

captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or

hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they

pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and

jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large

plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they

signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well

that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

 

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader,

saw his ships

swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home

and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas

McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to

move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress

without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His

possessions were taken from him, and he lived

in poverty.

 

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall,

Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

 

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that

the British

General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his

headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to

open fire. The home was

destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his

home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife,

and she died within a few months.

 

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was

dying. Their 13

children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill

were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests

and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his

children vanished. A few weeks later, he died from

exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston

suffered similar fates.

 

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American

Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing

ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education.

They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing

straight and unwavering, they pledged:

 

"For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on

the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge

to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred

honor". They gave you and me a free and independent

America. The History books never told you a lot of what

happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight the

British. We were British subjects at that time and we

fought our own government!

 

It is easy for us to take these liberties so much for

granted! So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your

4th of July holiday and silently thank these men and women."

 

author unknown

 

---contributed by Xan

 

 

_____________________

 

 

 

There may be times when I see the Divinity of everything and

everyone more clearly than others. There may be times when

I "feel" it more than others. But *I know in my heart that

all is Divine*, always. Nothing will take that

heart-knowledge away, nothing will change it. That

"knowledge" is itself Divine. It will survive beyond

physical death. It MUST.

 

---Tim Gerchmez

 

 

__________________

 

 

 

Separation comes to be recognized as

unnatural when wholeness emerges

fully in awareness even for a moment.

Tibetan buddhism calls awakening from

the dream of separation the return to

the natural state.

 

< How would such an unnatural condition occur, by

the intervention of an agency outside of nature? >

 

I used to have a passion to understand this.

I could not reconcile how separation, con-

fusion and suffering could have been created

out of our source and essence which is whole

and pure. I drove myself a little nuts with this

question, actually.

 

I already knew this full presence, silent and

essential and that nothing exists outside of it.

One source only.

 

Some people said it was the 'original sin'

of defiance against God, but how could

what exists only in oneness become defiant?

 

Some people said it was an error, but how

could an error come from what is perfect?

 

Even those who said to me, "What does it

matter how or why it happened, put your

attention on the return to original consciousness."

didn't satisfy.

 

It wasn't until I met my teacher, Papaji, and he

absorbed me completely in his presence and

my process of transformation - fragmented mind

to silent presence - that the question stopped

burning in me. He just said, "Put that aside for

now."

 

Later I learned that he and Ramana Maharshi,

another pure teacher of our century, came to the

conclusion that the how and why of separation

cannot be understood. It is a mystery.

 

The further I go in the rediscovery of my original,

natural, whole Self, the more mystery there is

and the more joy I have in it. Conceptual,

defining mind does not like unknowns - mysteries -

but becoming open to that and going through the

veil of fear yields a safety that the mind could

never create or imagine.

 

It is not balance that pursuit of the truth of

yourself yields. Balance is only the aim of

managing opposities - dualities. What you

are is beyond all that but not at a distance.

Right here your own awareness itself needs

nothing, being already complete.

 

Thanks for bringing up that question.

How grateful I am for my freedom from it

now.

 

---Xan

 

 

_____________________

 

 

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there

a man which had not on a wedding garment.

And he said unto him, Friend, how camest thou hither not

having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot,

and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there

shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called but few are chosen."

(St. Matthew 22:11-14)

 

The parable cited by Marcia is indeed a difficult one to

grasp.

It has some similarities to the saying, "if thine right eye

offend thee,

pluck it out," although that one is a little easier to take

for me.

One interpretation of these parables is that Jesus was

kicked off of

his little league team when he was young (this information

is known only

in esoteric circles, and is the reason why young Jesus

started hanging

out at the temples so frequently). If we assume that Jesus

wasn't trying to compensate for childhood trauma we could

look at the parable about the dinner guest as a statement

that one must attune oneself vibrationally to the reality

one intends to enter. If one's being isn't able to resonate

at the appropriate frequency, one will be "dismissed," that

is, one will dismiss oneself. The parable about

self-mutilation can be construed as a statement about

willingness to move from duality to nonduality (at least one

hopes this is the meaning of that). "If thine eye be

single, thine whole body will be filled with light."

 

---Dan

 

______________________

 

 

 

This is a clipping from another discussion group I am in...

thought I

would share it with you...

 

Don James wrote:

 

I'm not saying ignorance doesn't run deep. I'm just saying

enlightenment won't run deeper if we don't include the

suffering in

our realization. As long as we say Christians are ignorant

or point

at anything and call it ignorance, we take a picture of it

and declare

it a still life. As if it were somehow outside of us, that

we aren't

involved. Rather, we should be a source for the illumination

of all

things, instead of being judge and jury.

 

-------------

 

Tim Harris replied:

 

Yes. This is true. 'All' things are, in their 'natural'

form, dead...

emotions included. Our words (physical manifestation) and

our thoughts

(concept manifestation) are the 'air' (nothing) that give

them life.

However, they are no more 'alive' then they were before, but

for the fact that now... they are 'real' and consume our

'reality'.

 

Obsession is the argument.

 

 

____________________

 

 

 

What do we need to know, from an educational standpoint?

 

* How to speak (this we learn on our own...)

* How to read and write (the necessity being due mostly to

the emphasis

placed on written communication at this time in history)

* Simple numbers and arithmetic (same reason as above)

* Search and retrieval skills (e.g. how to look up a number

in a phone book

or a word in a dictionary)

 

A formula:

 

Require children to attend school through age 12. Emphasize

only language, communication skills and motor skills (gym

classes). Let the final year be dedicated entirely to the

subject "How to think for yourself" (or integrate this theme

through all the years). Then free the poor kids to live

life, not to learn about it. Make further knowledge

available but completely unrequired. Emphasize creativity

and self-reliance during the school years, rather than data

transference.

 

Imagine a world in which all children were "schooled" in

this way...

 

---Tim G.

 

 

____________________

 

 

Nowadays, when I feel needy

I relax into the "arms" of silent presence.

I used to think of it as Divine Mother. Now

it has no name.

 

Xan

 

 

 

----

 

 

 

I am "getting" this. Getting a "feel" for those arms.

Is it silent or loving silence?

 

---Marcia

 

 

______________________

 

 

Marcia:

 

The universality of that kind of pain.

It is global. The entire planet was covered in this

mass of suffering. She was groaning from the weight

of it. All of her children moment by moment birthing,

dying, wave after wave of suffering both on the in

breath and the out breath. This was her breathing.

At that moment I was closer to mother earth than

her breathing and as a mother I could feel her

children's suffering and the sorrow it brought to her.

All I wanted was to help her. So sorrow is.......

"doing usbeing us" - *is* our knowing,

experiencing, feeling --

exactly as we *are.*

 

 

Ivan:

 

Yes, I also feel that there is universal sorrow.

The fuel in form of suffering, that somehow binds

man to madness.

 

 

Xan:

 

Yes. This is the Core Wound we were

talking about a little time ago, and that

Saniel Bonder addresses. The essential

grief over the imagined loss of our Self

and in that, the loss of communion with

other life forms - each other.

 

This delusion of separation is madness

and its distortions show up in many ways.

 

Everything we make up is a shabby

second, a merry-go-round ride leading

nowhere for no purpose, except that

the ride shields us from feeling the pain

of the real loss and from remembering

what we are really longing for.

 

That's that big "first step", Melody.

 

What could be more helpful, more

compassionate than to be one of

those facing the void that we have

taken to be so real and discovering

the truth of ourselves - simple and

present.

 

This is the Healing that ends all suffering.

 

 

__________________

 

 

I've given up "pondering" along with a bunch or other

activites that didn't work to awaken and transform me.

 

I trust I will have understandings when I need them,

Given - as all else is given.

 

Xan

 

 

______________________

 

 

 

My friend Sandeep said to me earlier

on another list, that I am bound, because

I "see" chains. < ZAP!>

 

Boy, did I heard the truth in that.

 

Today is the first day I'm willing to

consider setting aside my script - to

step beyond the chains, to look beyond

the picture that I've been piecing back

together....

 

before *first* identifying and labeling and

'embracing' each and every last piece of it. :-)

 

It's scarier than hell.

 

A life with no history. No mission or

agenda.

 

Damned scary stuff.

 

Melody

 

--------------

 

Hi Melody,

 

Remember that poem Sandeep likes to quote... something like

 

Somewhere

There's a field..

Out beyond right and wrong.

I'll meet you there.

 

Hey, I'm scared, too.

Hold my hand?

I want to step off this merry-go-round... with you.

 

Glo

 

 

____________________

 

 

Do round and square objects exist outside?

 

A ball and a cube -- are these objects' qualities IN the

OBJECT? Do we

touch the same thing that we see? Are the objects external

to us?

 

In the non-dual perspective, a stumbling block can be the

belief that

physical objects really are Out There. This geometrical

model of the world has even influenced our thinking at the

psychological level and spiritual level. We take thoughts

and spiritual perspectives as objects on the

physical/geometrical model as well. We say, for example,

that "There's a thought in my head," or "I'm coming from a

very loving place right now," or, "I'm resting in the

vastness." As ways of speaking these are OK, but if we

somehow believe them, it increases our feelings of

separation.

 

What if the geometrical model is insupportable? What if

there really are

no objects Out There? This would include the sense organs

and the brain,

of course.

 

Well, there's an argument that goes like this, and it has a

famous test

case that casts grave doubt on the geometical model of the

world:

 

1. If physical objects exist external to us, then

its qualities exist external to us.

 

2. If qualities exist external to us, then

somehow our senses contact those qualities.

 

3. If our senses contact those qualities, then

the qualities of roundness and corneredness

are qualities of objects that our senses touch.

 

4. If roundedness and corneredness are objects that

our senses touch, then we both see and feel and

can differentiate between roundedness and

corneredness.

========================================================

5. If (4) is false, then objects do not exist external

to us.

 

Now, there is a famous perceptual test case, a thought

experiment, that

tests the truth of (4). It is called the Molyneaux case,

proposed by an

ingenious optician named William Molyneaux in 1693. It has

some

implications for one's understanding of the non-dual

perspective. When you read this, try to imagine for a moment

that you aren't familiar with

Eastern teachings saying that the phenomenal world is an

illusion.

 

Here's the way John Locke posed the problem in the late 17th

century.

 

Suppose a man born blind, and now adult, and

taught by his touch to distinguish between a

cube and a sphere of the same metal, and nighly

of the same bigness, so as to tell, when he

felt one and t'other, which is the cube and

which is the sphere. Suppose then the cube

and sphere placed on a table, and the blind

man made to see: quaere, whether by his sight,

before he touched them, he could now distinguish

and tell which is the globe, which the cube?

 

Some philosophers have argued Yes, others say No. But there

have been test cases, even a recent movie (At First Sight)

about an adult gaining his sight. Based on empirical

research, the upshot is NO. Upon gaining his sight and

training it a bit, the newly sighted person can distinguish

between the cube and sphere. But, until s/he is taught to

link the sight with the touch, s/he cannot say which is

round, which is cornered.

 

This makes (4) above false, which, given the argument above,

entails that objects are not external to us!

 

---Greg

 

 

__________________

 

 

Ivan: ...Let's give names to the cows for comunication's

clarity sake. Let's call the "Present as allness":

non-centered awareness

Let's call the other: centered awareness

>From centered awareness, nothing is real. ...

In this situation the unknown is just a concept

or idea, or taken as an absurdity.

>From non-centered awareness, the self is absent,

there is not a centered-obsever, there is no

entity anywhere, and all is non-divided, and from

here it seems that all that is percieced is real.

 

How can something existing not be real?

 

 

Dan: Something existing can not be real, if it

is seen that its reality is insubstantial. For

example if it is moving in and out of various

states that we label as "existence" and never

truly is "in existence."

 

 

Ivan: Thought is beautifull, real, but limited.

Thought can not deal with non centered awareness.

Thought is usefull to tecnicalitys (and many

other things, to be fair).

 

 

Dan: Thought is intriguing, insubstantial,

fleeting, able to create wonderous images.

 

 

Ivan: Yes I would say that whole movement of

psychological time...the gap...is thought and

memory and inner self.

 

 

Dan: Indeed. The gap between thought and moment to moment

experience is created as memory is used and an illusory self

is contructed as the

"manager" of this process. This "inner self" is

psychologically important, yet ultimately unreal when one is

able to do without it.

 

 

 

Ivan: ...But the strange thing about it is that

this distance is not percieved.....and then

suddenly ...one awakes in the field of centered

-awareness, as an inner entity.

 

 

 

Dan: It seems to me that this inner entity is

constructed over time. It forms a necessary

psychological function that is part of human

development. It is like a cocoon that has a time

to be shed, when it isn't needed any longer.

A person would need sufficient strength to

withstand the aloneness and groundlessness of

"no self" (of the thought-constructed kind).

The "inner self" has huge importance in managing

feelings, relationships, and thought, so leaving

it behind involves a readiness factor IMO.

 

 

 

Ivan: I would say it is a meditative state.....in the sense

that it mediates....is not identified...there is not a

loclised observer: non-centered awareness.

 

 

Dan: I am more in agreement with your view that

it is nonlocalized awareness than that it is

meditation. For me, there is no evaluative

means to term It meditation or non-meditation.

As there is no gap, there is no aspect of

experience rejected from it.

 

 

Ivan: Yes, there is no time for

evaluation...although one can "see" insanity in

the eventual apearence of the center....as an

evident fact, independent of memory.

 

 

Dan: An interesting way to look at it. I can

see your point. I would rather look at the

appearance of the center as a developmental phase

in which a fictional entity is constructed to be

used as a means to deal with socially necessary

situations and interactions. I do agree with you

that from the perspectiveless perspective of non-

localized awareness, much of what is done in the

name of the "self" is unnecessarily destructive

and absurd - a kind of "insanity" of sorts.

Yet I would hesitate to label as insanity that

which is a developmental phase for the evolution

of human awareness.

 

___________________

 

To to the Nonduality Salon please click below:

 

<//nondualitysalon>

 

Nonduality website:

 

<http://www.nonduality.com>

[Guest guest]

Justifying evil conduct as "part of growth" makes little sense. If these

great revolutionaries were so awarwe of THEIR need to be free, how could they

be aware of the needs of the slaves they held???? From the early days of

this country to 1964 when blacks (after numerous demonstrations by and

killings of blacks) were given the basic right to vote spans a lot of years ,

and I hope in the future our maturation period as a nation would be much more

speedier and dictated by its conscience, as opposed to something forced upon

us by circumtances

 

By the way, there are FEW other places on earth that I know of where there is

slavery on the basis of one's race, as was the case in our country. Having

said that though, I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it is;

namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

[Guest guest]

Gloria;

That is funny, I just sent this out and it has come back to me again. I do

believe that Glenn Kimball sent it to me and I was the one that sent it out

to you. Or maybe a bunch of us all had the same inspiration. Interesting

isn't it?

 

Jerry M. Katz wrote:

> umbada (Jerry M. Katz)

>

> A copy of this is being sent to . Subscription

> information is at the end of the post.

>

> Happy Fourth of July, Americans. It's a celebration heard

> throughout the world. We start out with a Fourth of July

> contribution from Xan. See you in the Salon...

>

> ---Jerry

>

> _____________________

>

> This is not non-duality but it is about suffering and

> sacrifice and not

> compromising.

>

> "THE COST OF LIBERTY....Just take a moment.

>

> Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who

> signed the

> Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by

> the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

> Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their

> sons serving in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons

> captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or

> hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they

> pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

> What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and

> jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large

> plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they

> signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well

> that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

>

> Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader,

> saw his ships

> swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home

> and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas

> McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to

> move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress

> without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His

> possessions were taken from him, and he lived

> in poverty.

>

> Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall,

> Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

>

> At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that

> the British

> General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his

> headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to

> open fire. The home was

> destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his

> home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife,

> and she died within a few months.

>

> John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was

> dying. Their 13

> children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill

> were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests

> and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his

> children vanished. A few weeks later, he died from

> exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston

> suffered similar fates.

>

> Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American

> Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing

> ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education.

> They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing

> straight and unwavering, they pledged:

>

> "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on

> the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge

> to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred

> honor". They gave you and me a free and independent

> America. The History books never told you a lot of what

> happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight the

> British. We were British subjects at that time and we

> fought our own government!

>

> It is easy for us to take these liberties so much for

> granted! So, take a couple of minutes while enjoying your

> 4th of July holiday and silently thank these men and women."

>

> author unknown

>

> ---contributed by Xan

>

> _____________________

>

> There may be times when I see the Divinity of everything and

> everyone more clearly than others. There may be times when

> I "feel" it more than others. But *I know in my heart that

> all is Divine*, always. Nothing will take that

> heart-knowledge away, nothing will change it. That

> "knowledge" is itself Divine. It will survive beyond

> physical death. It MUST.

>

> ---Tim Gerchmez

>

> __________________

>

>

> Separation comes to be recognized as

> unnatural when wholeness emerges

> fully in awareness even for a moment.

> Tibetan buddhism calls awakening from

> the dream of separation the return to

> the natural state.

>

> < How would such an unnatural condition occur, by

> the intervention of an agency outside of nature? >

>

> I used to have a passion to understand this.

> I could not reconcile how separation, con-

> fusion and suffering could have been created

> out of our source and essence which is whole

> and pure. I drove myself a little nuts with this

> question, actually.

>

> I already knew this full presence, silent and

> essential and that nothing exists outside of it.

> One source only.

>

> Some people said it was the 'original sin'

> of defiance against God, but how could

> what exists only in oneness become defiant?

>

> Some people said it was an error, but how

> could an error come from what is perfect?

>

> Even those who said to me, "What does it

> matter how or why it happened, put your

> attention on the return to original consciousness."

> didn't satisfy.

>

> It wasn't until I met my teacher, Papaji, and he

> absorbed me completely in his presence and

> my process of transformation - fragmented mind

> to silent presence - that the question stopped

> burning in me. He just said, "Put that aside for

> now."

>

> Later I learned that he and Ramana Maharshi,

> another pure teacher of our century, came to the

> conclusion that the how and why of separation

> cannot be understood. It is a mystery.

>

> The further I go in the rediscovery of my original,

> natural, whole Self, the more mystery there is

> and the more joy I have in it. Conceptual,

> defining mind does not like unknowns - mysteries -

> but becoming open to that and going through the

> veil of fear yields a safety that the mind could

> never create or imagine.

>

> It is not balance that pursuit of the truth of

> yourself yields. Balance is only the aim of

> managing opposities - dualities. What you

> are is beyond all that but not at a distance.

> Right here your own awareness itself needs

> nothing, being already complete.

>

> Thanks for bringing up that question.

> How grateful I am for my freedom from it

> now.

>

> ---Xan

>

> _____________________

>

> "And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there

> a man which had not on a wedding garment.

> And he said unto him, Friend, how camest thou hither not

> having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

> Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot,

> and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there

> shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

> For many are called but few are chosen."

> (St. Matthew 22:11-14)

>

> The parable cited by Marcia is indeed a difficult one to

> grasp.

> It has some similarities to the saying, "if thine right eye

> offend thee,

> pluck it out," although that one is a little easier to take

> for me.

> One interpretation of these parables is that Jesus was

> kicked off of

> his little league team when he was young (this information

> is known only

> in esoteric circles, and is the reason why young Jesus

> started hanging

> out at the temples so frequently). If we assume that Jesus

> wasn't trying to compensate for childhood trauma we could

> look at the parable about the dinner guest as a statement

> that one must attune oneself vibrationally to the reality

> one intends to enter. If one's being isn't able to resonate

> at the appropriate frequency, one will be "dismissed," that

> is, one will dismiss oneself. The parable about

> self-mutilation can be construed as a statement about

> willingness to move from duality to nonduality (at least one

> hopes this is the meaning of that). "If thine eye be

> single, thine whole body will be filled with light."

>

> ---Dan

>

> ______________________

>

> This is a clipping from another discussion group I am in...

> thought I

> would share it with you...

>

> Don James wrote:

>

> I'm not saying ignorance doesn't run deep. I'm just saying

> enlightenment won't run deeper if we don't include the

> suffering in

> our realization. As long as we say Christians are ignorant

> or point

> at anything and call it ignorance, we take a picture of it

> and declare

> it a still life. As if it were somehow outside of us, that

> we aren't

> involved. Rather, we should be a source for the illumination

> of all

> things, instead of being judge and jury.

>

> -------------

>

> Tim Harris replied:

>

> Yes. This is true. 'All' things are, in their 'natural'

> form, dead...

> emotions included. Our words (physical manifestation) and

> our thoughts

> (concept manifestation) are the 'air' (nothing) that give

> them life.

> However, they are no more 'alive' then they were before, but

> for the fact that now... they are 'real' and consume our

> 'reality'.

>

> Obsession is the argument.

>

> ____________________

>

> What do we need to know, from an educational standpoint?

>

> * How to speak (this we learn on our own...)

> * How to read and write (the necessity being due mostly to

> the emphasis

> placed on written communication at this time in history)

> * Simple numbers and arithmetic (same reason as above)

> * Search and retrieval skills (e.g. how to look up a number

> in a phone book

> or a word in a dictionary)

>

> A formula:

>

> Require children to attend school through age 12. Emphasize

> only language, communication skills and motor skills (gym

> classes). Let the final year be dedicated entirely to the

> subject "How to think for yourself" (or integrate this theme

> through all the years). Then free the poor kids to live

> life, not to learn about it. Make further knowledge

> available but completely unrequired. Emphasize creativity

> and self-reliance during the school years, rather than data

> transference.

>

> Imagine a world in which all children were "schooled" in

> this way...

>

> ---Tim G.

>

> ____________________

>

> Nowadays, when I feel needy

> I relax into the "arms" of silent presence.

> I used to think of it as Divine Mother. Now

> it has no name.

>

> Xan

>

> ----

>

> I am "getting" this. Getting a "feel" for those arms.

> Is it silent or loving silence?

>

> ---Marcia

>

> ______________________

>

> Marcia:

>

> The universality of that kind of pain.

> It is global. The entire planet was covered in this

> mass of suffering. She was groaning from the weight

> of it. All of her children moment by moment birthing,

> dying, wave after wave of suffering both on the in

> breath and the out breath. This was her breathing.

> At that moment I was closer to mother earth than

> her breathing and as a mother I could feel her

> children's suffering and the sorrow it brought to her.

> All I wanted was to help her. So sorrow is.......

> "doing usbeing us" - *is* our knowing,

> experiencing, feeling --

> exactly as we *are.*

>

>

> Ivan:

>

> Yes, I also feel that there is universal sorrow.

> The fuel in form of suffering, that somehow binds

> man to madness.

>

> Xan:

>

> Yes. This is the Core Wound we were

> talking about a little time ago, and that

> Saniel Bonder addresses. The essential

> grief over the imagined loss of our Self

> and in that, the loss of communion with

> other life forms - each other.

>

> This delusion of separation is madness

> and its distortions show up in many ways.

>

> Everything we make up is a shabby

> second, a merry-go-round ride leading

> nowhere for no purpose, except that

> the ride shields us from feeling the pain

> of the real loss and from remembering

> what we are really longing for.

>

> That's that big "first step", Melody.

>

> What could be more helpful, more

> compassionate than to be one of

> those facing the void that we have

> taken to be so real and discovering

> the truth of ourselves - simple and

> present.

>

> This is the Healing that ends all suffering.

>

> __________________

>

> I've given up "pondering" along with a bunch or other

> activites that didn't work to awaken and transform me.

>

> I trust I will have understandings when I need them,

> Given - as all else is given.

>

> Xan

>

> ______________________

>

> My friend Sandeep said to me earlier

> on another list, that I am bound, because

> I "see" chains. < ZAP!>

>

> Boy, did I heard the truth in that.

>

> Today is the first day I'm willing to

> consider setting aside my script - to

> step beyond the chains, to look beyond

> the picture that I've been piecing back

> together....

>

> before *first* identifying and labeling and

> 'embracing' each and every last piece of it. :-)

>

> It's scarier than hell.

>

> A life with no history. No mission or

> agenda.

>

> Damned scary stuff.

>

> Melody

>

> --------------

>

> Hi Melody,

>

> Remember that poem Sandeep likes to quote... something like

>

> Somewhere

> There's a field..

> Out beyond right and wrong.

> I'll meet you there.

>

> Hey, I'm scared, too.

> Hold my hand?

> I want to step off this merry-go-round... with you.

>

> Glo

>

> ____________________

>

> Do round and square objects exist outside?

>

> A ball and a cube -- are these objects' qualities IN the

> OBJECT? Do we

> touch the same thing that we see? Are the objects external

> to us?

>

> In the non-dual perspective, a stumbling block can be the

> belief that

> physical objects really are Out There. This geometrical

> model of the world has even influenced our thinking at the

> psychological level and spiritual level. We take thoughts

> and spiritual perspectives as objects on the

> physical/geometrical model as well. We say, for example,

> that "There's a thought in my head," or "I'm coming from a

> very loving place right now," or, "I'm resting in the

> vastness." As ways of speaking these are OK, but if we

> somehow believe them, it increases our feelings of

> separation.

>

> What if the geometrical model is insupportable? What if

> there really are

> no objects Out There? This would include the sense organs

> and the brain,

> of course.

>

> Well, there's an argument that goes like this, and it has a

> famous test

> case that casts grave doubt on the geometical model of the

> world:

>

> 1. If physical objects exist external to us, then

> its qualities exist external to us.

>

> 2. If qualities exist external to us, then

> somehow our senses contact those qualities.

>

> 3. If our senses contact those qualities, then

> the qualities of roundness and corneredness

> are qualities of objects that our senses touch.

>

> 4. If roundedness and corneredness are objects that

> our senses touch, then we both see and feel and

> can differentiate between roundedness and

> corneredness.

> ========================================================

> 5. If (4) is false, then objects do not exist external

> to us.

>

> Now, there is a famous perceptual test case, a thought

> experiment, that

> tests the truth of (4). It is called the Molyneaux case,

> proposed by an

> ingenious optician named William Molyneaux in 1693. It has

> some

> implications for one's understanding of the non-dual

> perspective. When you read this, try to imagine for a moment

> that you aren't familiar with

> Eastern teachings saying that the phenomenal world is an

> illusion.

>

> Here's the way John Locke posed the problem in the late 17th

> century.

>

> Suppose a man born blind, and now adult, and

> taught by his touch to distinguish between a

> cube and a sphere of the same metal, and nighly

> of the same bigness, so as to tell, when he

> felt one and t'other, which is the cube and

> which is the sphere. Suppose then the cube

> and sphere placed on a table, and the blind

> man made to see: quaere, whether by his sight,

> before he touched them, he could now distinguish

> and tell which is the globe, which the cube?

>

> Some philosophers have argued Yes, others say No. But there

> have been test cases, even a recent movie (At First Sight)

> about an adult gaining his sight. Based on empirical

> research, the upshot is NO. Upon gaining his sight and

> training it a bit, the newly sighted person can distinguish

> between the cube and sphere. But, until s/he is taught to

> link the sight with the touch, s/he cannot say which is

> round, which is cornered.

>

> This makes (4) above false, which, given the argument above,

> entails that objects are not external to us!

>

> ---Greg

>

> __________________

>

> Ivan: ...Let's give names to the cows for comunication's

> clarity sake. Let's call the "Present as allness":

> non-centered awareness

> Let's call the other: centered awareness

> >From centered awareness, nothing is real. ...

> In this situation the unknown is just a concept

> or idea, or taken as an absurdity.

>

> >From non-centered awareness, the self is absent,

> there is not a centered-obsever, there is no

> entity anywhere, and all is non-divided, and from

> here it seems that all that is percieced is real.

>

> How can something existing not be real?

>

> Dan: Something existing can not be real, if it

> is seen that its reality is insubstantial. For

> example if it is moving in and out of various

> states that we label as "existence" and never

> truly is "in existence."

>

> Ivan: Thought is beautifull, real, but limited.

> Thought can not deal with non centered awareness.

> Thought is usefull to tecnicalitys (and many

> other things, to be fair).

>

> Dan: Thought is intriguing, insubstantial,

> fleeting, able to create wonderous images.

>

> Ivan: Yes I would say that whole movement of

> psychological time...the gap...is thought and

> memory and inner self.

>

> Dan: Indeed. The gap between thought and moment to moment

> experience is created as memory is used and an illusory self

> is contructed as the

> "manager" of this process. This "inner self" is

> psychologically important, yet ultimately unreal when one is

> able to do without it.

>

> Ivan: ...But the strange thing about it is that

> this distance is not percieved.....and then

> suddenly ...one awakes in the field of centered

> -awareness, as an inner entity.

>

> Dan: It seems to me that this inner entity is

> constructed over time. It forms a necessary

> psychological function that is part of human

> development. It is like a cocoon that has a time

> to be shed, when it isn't needed any longer.

> A person would need sufficient strength to

> withstand the aloneness and groundlessness of

> "no self" (of the thought-constructed kind).

> The "inner self" has huge importance in managing

> feelings, relationships, and thought, so leaving

> it behind involves a readiness factor IMO.

>

> Ivan: I would say it is a meditative state.....in the sense

> that it mediates....is not identified...there is not a

> loclised observer: non-centered awareness.

>

> Dan: I am more in agreement with your view that

> it is nonlocalized awareness than that it is

> meditation. For me, there is no evaluative

> means to term It meditation or non-meditation.

> As there is no gap, there is no aspect of

> experience rejected from it.

>

> Ivan: Yes, there is no time for

> evaluation...although one can "see" insanity in

> the eventual apearence of the center....as an

> evident fact, independent of memory.

>

> Dan: An interesting way to look at it. I can

> see your point. I would rather look at the

> appearance of the center as a developmental phase

> in which a fictional entity is constructed to be

> used as a means to deal with socially necessary

> situations and interactions. I do agree with you

> that from the perspectiveless perspective of non-

> localized awareness, much of what is done in the

> name of the "self" is unnecessarily destructive

> and absurd - a kind of "insanity" of sorts.

> Yet I would hesitate to label as insanity that

> which is a developmental phase for the evolution

> of human awareness.

>

> ___________________

>

> To to the Nonduality Salon please click below:

>

> <//nondualitysalon>

>

> Nonduality website:

>

> <http://www.nonduality.com>

>

> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

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>

> ------

 

--

Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher.

 

Gloria Joy Greco

e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat

at:

http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

[Guest guest]

INSprofess wrote:

> INSprofess

>

> While we all praise the efforts of our founding fathers in getting "liberty"

> for us, the fact is that the very people did NOT give liberty to their

> slaves!! That is a painful part of history that CANNOT be ignored when

> viewing that time period, although this should not undermine the fact that

> these were very unusual, dedicated and true patriots who sought and

> successfully obtained "liberty" for themselves and other people who came from

> Europe.

 

Gloria:

Of course they didn't, it was yet a part of their growth. It took a lot more

struggle and letting go before that came into the consciousness. And it still

exists

in many places in the world. It is a part of the growth which one must come into

through spiritual awareness. Yet it is all perfect.

>

>

> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

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>

> ------

 

--

Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher.

 

Gloria Joy Greco

e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at:

http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

[Guest guest]

I came here wanting answers to my legitimate questions. The lady medidation

teacher from Australia, whom many respect, recommended this List. Thus far i

do not have the FOGGIEST idea what you guys are TALKING ABOUT!!!! cAN SOMEONE

PLESE TALK IN plaing ENGLISh, IF IT IS POSSIBLE???

 

Nav

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/4/99 6:13:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

jacpa writes:

 

<< Marcia Paul <jacpa

 

It should not be me. I don't post here often at all and

if it is my words that are not clear to you just ignore them.

 

Marcia >>

 

Thanks for your clarification. I wonder if others would be as upfront as you

in acknowedging their natural ignorance. I mean, if you do not know the

answer to something, there is no use in playing semantics!!!

 

Nav

[Guest guest]

INSprofess wrote:

> Justifying evil conduct as "part of growth" makes little sense. If these

> great revolutionaries were so awarwe of THEIR need to be free, how could they

> be aware of the needs of the slaves they held????

 

The same way you pig out while others starve.

It's so simple.

> I hope in the future our maturation period as a nation would be much more

> speedier and dictated by its conscience, as opposed to something forced upon

> us by circumtances

 

Do you advocate forcing the expansion of conscious awareness?

> By the way, there are FEW other places on earth that I know of where there is

> slavery on the basis of one's race, as was the case in our country.

 

Slavery is embedded in human history.

In Africa it comes down to what tribe one's from.

But today in Africa, they seem to more interested in killing other tribes

rather than enslaving them.

> Having

> said that though, I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it is;

> namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

 

All of us?

Most of us don't live in the US.

 

Having said that you remind me of Tim G. quite a bit. : )

[Guest guest]

I have a feeling the native americans might have something to say about

this "liberty" as well... goes to show you ... liberty, like many things,

is a relative concept and dependent on the subjective perspective of the

experiencer, and the context of the experiencing...

 

 

At 08:37 AM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote:

>INSprofess

>

>While we all praise the efforts of our founding fathers in getting "liberty"

>for us, the fact is that the very people did NOT give liberty to their

>slaves!! That is a painful part of history that CANNOT be ignored when

>viewing that time period, although this should not undermine the fact that

>these were very unusual, dedicated and true patriots who sought and

>successfully obtained "liberty" for themselves and other people who came

from

>Europe.

>

>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

>Enjoy 120+ unique music channels right from your desktop! Download

>Spinner Plus 2.0 <a href=" http://clickme./ad/spinner1 ">Click

Here</a>

>Spinner.com. Where music lives online.

>

>------

>

[Guest guest]

Your distinction about the U.S. having slavery on the basis of race doesn't

seem especially helpful to me. There have been so many countries where the

difference that allowed slavery was based on nationality, ethnicity, tribe,

or religion (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South America). In the U.S. at

that time, skin color was an obvious difference and generally served as a

justification (which included religion, language, and cultural background

as well). Many of these slaves were bought in Africa where they were sold

because tribal distinctions justified the slavery. English, French, Dutch

all made distinctions based on color, and this because they colonialized

countries where the inhabitants differed from them by color. There is

nothing that uniquely evil about the United States -- humanity itself needs

to be considered as the "culprit" and the potential "savior" regarding the

problem of exploitation. There aren't easy answers to this one, and blame

is too easy of a solution.

 

Peace, Dan

 

 

At 01:46 PM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote:

>INSprofess

>

>Justifying evil conduct as "part of growth" makes little sense. If these

>great revolutionaries were so awarwe of THEIR need to be free, how could

they

>be aware of the needs of the slaves they held???? From the early days of

>this country to 1964 when blacks (after numerous demonstrations by and

>killings of blacks) were given the basic right to vote spans a lot of

years ,

>and I hope in the future our maturation period as a nation would be much

more

>speedier and dictated by its conscience, as opposed to something forced upon

>us by circumtances

>

>By the way, there are FEW other places on earth that I know of where there

is

>slavery on the basis of one's race, as was the case in our country. Having

>said that though, I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it

is;

>namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

>

>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

>Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?

>

>Come join one of 180,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

>

>------

>

[Guest guest]

Gloria:

It is not possible to judge the right or wrong of things, rather we come from

our point of consciousness and understand that all parts of the process are

perfect. So that each of us at some point have been a part of the suffering, and

the cause, what difference does it make? It only makes sense to be the witness

and move on with love for all.

 

Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

> "Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd

>

> Your distinction about the U.S. having slavery on the basis of race doesn't

> seem especially helpful to me. There have been so many countries where the

> difference that allowed slavery was based on nationality, ethnicity, tribe,

> or religion (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South America). In the U.S. at

> that time, skin color was an obvious difference and generally served as a

> justification (which included religion, language, and cultural background

> as well). Many of these slaves were bought in Africa where they were sold

> because tribal distinctions justified the slavery. English, French, Dutch

> all made distinctions based on color, and this because they colonialized

> countries where the inhabitants differed from them by color. There is

> nothing that uniquely evil about the United States -- humanity itself needs

> to be considered as the "culprit" and the potential "savior" regarding the

> problem of exploitation. There aren't easy answers to this one, and blame

> is too easy of a solution.

>

> Peace, Dan

>

> At 01:46 PM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote:

> >INSprofess

> >

> >Justifying evil conduct as "part of growth" makes little sense. If these

> >great revolutionaries were so awarwe of THEIR need to be free, how could

> they

> >be aware of the needs of the slaves they held???? From the early days of

> >this country to 1964 when blacks (after numerous demonstrations by and

> >killings of blacks) were given the basic right to vote spans a lot of

> years ,

> >and I hope in the future our maturation period as a nation would be much

> more

> >speedier and dictated by its conscience, as opposed to something forced upon

> >us by circumtances

> >

> >By the way, there are FEW other places on earth that I know of where there

> is

> >slavery on the basis of one's race, as was the case in our country. Having

> >said that though, I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it

> is;

> >namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

> >

> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

> >

> >Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?

> >

> >Come join one of 180,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

> >

> >------

> >

>

> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

> Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?

>

> Come join one of 180,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

>

> ------

 

--

Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher.

 

Gloria Joy Greco

e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at:

http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

[Guest guest]

WHO is this Harsha fellow, and where has he gone?? When will he be back??

Nav

[Guest guest]

Each of us, each point, is an actualization of the same point.

We are each in all.

 

Dan

 

At 12:57 PM 7/4/99 -0700, you wrote:

>lodpress <lodpress

>

>Gloria:

>It is not possible to judge the right or wrong of things, rather we come from

>our point of consciousness and understand that all parts of the process are

>perfect. So that each of us at some point have been a part of the

suffering, and

>the cause, what difference does it make? It only makes sense to be the

witness

>and move on with love for all.

>

>Dan Berkow, PhD wrote:

>

>> "Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd

>>

>> Your distinction about the U.S. having slavery on the basis of race doesn't

>> seem especially helpful to me. There have been so many countries where the

>> difference that allowed slavery was based on nationality, ethnicity, tribe,

>> or religion (Asia, Africa, Middle East, South America). In the U.S. at

>> that time, skin color was an obvious difference and generally served as a

>> justification (which included religion, language, and cultural background

>> as well). Many of these slaves were bought in Africa where they were sold

>> because tribal distinctions justified the slavery. English, French, Dutch

>> all made distinctions based on color, and this because they colonialized

>> countries where the inhabitants differed from them by color. There is

>> nothing that uniquely evil about the United States -- humanity itself needs

>> to be considered as the "culprit" and the potential "savior"

regarding the

>> problem of exploitation. There aren't easy answers to this one, and blame

>> is too easy of a solution.

>>

>> Peace, Dan

>>

>> At 01:46 PM 7/4/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> >INSprofess

>> >

>> >Justifying evil conduct as "part of growth" makes little sense. If these

>> >great revolutionaries were so awarwe of THEIR need to be free, how could

>> they

>> >be aware of the needs of the slaves they held???? From the early days of

>> >this country to 1964 when blacks (after numerous demonstrations by and

>> >killings of blacks) were given the basic right to vote spans a lot of

>> years ,

>> >and I hope in the future our maturation period as a nation would be much

>> more

>> >speedier and dictated by its conscience, as opposed to something forced

upon

>> >us by circumtances

>> >

>> >By the way, there are FEW other places on earth that I know of where there

>> is

>> >slavery on the basis of one's race, as was the case in our country. Having

>> >said that though, I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it

>> is;

>> >namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

>> >

>> >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>> >

>> >Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?

>> >

>> >Come join one of 180,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

>> >

>> >------

>> >

>>

>> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>>

>> Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend?

>>

>> Come join one of 180,000 e-mail communities at ONElist!

>>

>> ------

>

>--

>Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher.

>

>Gloria Joy Greco

>e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at:

>http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/

>

>

>

>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

>Looking to expand your world?

>

>ONElist has 180,000 e-mail communities from which to choose!

>

>------

>

[Guest guest]

Today, INSprofess wrote:

>I came here wanting answers to my legitimate questions. The lady

>medidation teacher from Australia, whom many respect, recommended this

>List. Thus far i do not have the FOGGIEST idea what you guys are TALKING

>ABOUT!!!! cAN SOMEONE PLESE TALK IN plaing ENGLISh, IF IT IS POSSIBLE???

 

Si!

 

 

 

Peace,

 

Tom

 

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth

and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

At 01:46 PM 7/4/99 EDT, you wrote:

>INSprofess

>I think all of us should celebrate this day for what it is;

>namely, this NATION's freedom from England.

 

If I may ask, why is it a cause for celebration that there is a nation

called America that is free from England? Is there something inherently

binding about England, something "less free" there than in the U.S.?

 

Hari OM,

 

Tim

 

-----

Visit The Core of the WWW at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html

Music, Poetry, Writings on Nondual Spiritual Topics.

[Guest guest]

It should not be me. I don't post here often at all and

if it is my words that are not clear to you just ignore them.

 

Marcia

 

INSprofess wrote:

> INSprofess

>

> I came here wanting answers to my legitimate questions. The lady medidation

> teacher from Australia, whom many respect, recommended this List. Thus far i

> do not have the FOGGIEST idea what you guys are TALKING ABOUT!!!! cAN SOMEONE

> PLESE TALK IN plaing ENGLISh, IF IT IS POSSIBLE???

>

> Nav

>

> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

> With more than 20 million e-mails exchanged daily...

>

> ...ONElist is home to the liveliest discussions on the Internet!

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[Guest guest]

Well I don't want Harsha to be unhappy with me for

misrepresenting his list while he is gone. Most of the

time I don't know what people are talking about here

either.

 

Marcia

 

INSprofess wrote:

> INSprofess

>

> In a message dated 7/4/99 6:13:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> jacpa writes:

>

> << Marcia Paul <jacpa

>

> It should not be me. I don't post here often at all and

> if it is my words that are not clear to you just ignore them.

>

> Marcia >>

>

> Thanks for your clarification. I wonder if others would be as upfront as you

> in acknowedging their natural ignorance. I mean, if you do not know the

> answer to something, there is no use in playing semantics!!!

>

> Nav

>

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[Guest guest]

<< INSprofess >>

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I'd like to suggest some other sites for your investigation:

 

Awakening Into Awareness at www.awakening.net

 

and www.Gangaji.org

[Guest guest]

 

Linda Callanan [shastra]

Sunday, July 04, 1999 8:26 PM

RE: Digest: July 2, 1999

 

Hello Nav:

 

Satsangh means in the company of truth (seekers). This list is a sincere

group of seekers who share what they have discovered to be true on their

journey towards spiritual wholeness. The irony is that one moving towards

spiritual oneness will gather certain amounts of intellectual knowledge but

in the end will leave that behind as the truth of our Divinity is beyond

mere words. We come from different disciplines and often appear a bit

non-cohesive but are cohesive in our hunger for spiritual oneness. For

myself, knowing that there is a community like this can be a comfort but

I've also learned that the questions that cause perceived impatience or pain

within my mind are generally not the ones that can be answered through

others. Those questions are answered within the silence of my heart and

with the grace of God.

 

It is not important to understand every topic or posting as we are a

divergent group. Often when the topics get really scientific I have no idea

what anyone is speaking about but that is okay I'm here because I respect

and appreciate the fellowship as well as the knowledge.

 

Namaste,

Linda

 

 

 

I came here wanting answers to my legitimate questions. The lady medidation

teacher from Australia, whom many respect, recommended this List. Thus far

i

do not have the FOGGIEST idea what you guys are TALKING ABOUT!!!! cAN

SOMEONE

PLESE TALK IN plaing ENGLISh, IF IT IS POSSIBLE???

 

Nav

 

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