Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Re: Reincarnation --Dialogue between Ron and jay. Other list members may wish to contribute and take this dialogue further:- >>jay's first response to questions about reincarnation from Ron>> >> (1) Even if one case is found (we have to make sure there is no fraud) >>where one individual is able to recount his/her past life in vivid detail >> (including some information that absolutely no one would have known) -- >>then Science has to take on the challenge and try and answer, "How did >>this information travel?" There may be no genetic relationship between the two >> personalities. >> Earlier you had objected to this and suggested that some kind of 'atomic >> blueprint' was somehow left behind by the first personality and then it >>got transferred to the other personality through the food chain...... >> Well we then have to find an incident with two personalities where no >>food chain link could be possible due to geographic/physical restraints. >>(I am pretty sure you will find such incidents). Then what other physical >> phenomenon would science use? Science has to tackle this question -- How >>did the information travel??? Ron's response> >Since you do know your physics, I am sure you are aware of Bell's theorem. >I'm sure you are also aware of the fact that Einstein postulated that if >you created two particles with opposite spin, send them in opposite directions >at the speed of light, and then change the spin of one particle, the spin of the >other will automatically change. How? Bell suggested superluminals. >Well, the experiments have been done now, and even though there is still >controversy over superluminals, there is no doubt that the phenomenon >Einstein predicted exists. We have seen it over a ten mile experiment so >far. Plans are being made to try it over larger distances. >Bell said that if this was proven, then it meant that we are intimately >connected to every part of the universe at the same time. > >You said yourself that: "The mind and soul (consciousness) >cannot be defined as being here or there in space or time and ideas of it >moving from here to there are meaningless. Ideas of here and there - >entering here - leaving there are concepts of the mind - hence to say the >mind/consciousness was here and then moved there in space/time is >meaningless. (Space/time are concepts of the mind so how can something >which is a by-product of the mind dictate these qualities to the mind and >consciousness?)." > >Now we know that even a particle of matter already has that connection to >all. Space/time seems like a meaningless question to it. So even without >"mind" as a separate thing (Unless you are saying that all matter is mind as well >automatically) it seems that matter/energy is intelligible on it's own. >That mind (awareness) is an inherent part of energy.matter. And that >consciousness is a by product of a certain configuration of energy/matter. Further reply from jay:- Ron if I understand you correctly you are saying "Bell's experiment demonstrates that every particle is intrinsically interconnected and hence the information about reincarnation may have travelled in that fashion and perhaps not in a normal physical sense". Firstly Bell's experiment has not been able to override law of causality. Anything travelling faster than the speed of light would do that. No information can be passed on that can act to violate the law of cause and effect. After lot of work at the Santa Fe institute they are unable to devise any experiment which would violate cause and effect. Bells experiment at best demonstrates that 'uncertainty' can be thought to travel faster than light but this cannot transfer 'ordered' information which would violate cause and effect. This is no way demonstrates that 'ordered' information about one's life has been transferred to another person in this fashion. To me a person recalling his past life is still be better explained by reincarnation than by such random interconnectedness. Earlier jay had said >> (2) Ideas of why identical twins both brought up in the same environment >> will exhibit different characters -- better explained. Response from Ron: >No two people can occupy the same space at the same time. Hence we will >always have differences in experience. Twins are genetically very similar >but not usually absolutely identical. jay's response I thought identical twins are genetically same (not similar). Also the fact that the twins sit six inches apart in the womb, or maybe a few feet apart after birth --would account for sometimes very dramatic difference in personalities does not seem right. Earlier jay had said: >> (3) Child prodigies -- better explained. Ron's response >How does this apply? Genetics can easily account for this. further response from jay:- May be it is true - just accidental genetic ordering may account for child prodigies. In my opinion this seems more far fetched than to think of a person who had disciplined himself in one life and mastered say music then is reborn and shows his talents at very early age. But I agree the debate can go both ways on this. Earlier jay said: >> (4) Phobias -- say fire, heights, water - may be better explained by >>saying perhaps the person died through the above in the past life hence >>the severe fear of heights, fire or water etc. Ron's response:- >Or it may be trauma or perceived trauma in childhood. I remember an >incident where I was confronted by a snake. It scared me because it stood >up and hissed at me, menacingly. I was very small but remember it clearly. That >was the first time I was afraid of snakes. It left an impression on in my brain and >since then I have been wary of snakes and slightly afraid of them. > >All kids are afraid of falling. That is just a natural survival instinct. >Some develop more fear over the years, some grow less afraid. Some of these >things are imprinted from mom or dad, both genetically and by example. So >there are plenty of places we can see answers to these questions without seeing >any proof of reincarnation. jay's further reply:- The trauma that goes with this phobias is severe and to me cannot be explained by say falling off a stool in childhood and being frightened of heights for the rest of one's life. I understand the word trauma to mean 'irrational fear arising from the subconscious'. Death through such causes may be called the most traumatic experience and hence 'could' give rise to such severe traumas arising out of the subconscious. Again this cannot be considered proof enough for reincarnation. It is an interesting idea which challenges Psychologists to probe not only into the childhood experiences of their patients but perhaps into their past lives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Cool story, Glo. Thanks, xan << Gloria: I have an experience here that is pretty hard to explain other then through reincarnation. I woke up in a dream inside of a mans body, in the dream I was awake and trying to get up. I had very heavy old fashioned quilts on me. The first thing I realized in trying to push the covers down was that I had huge hands and I had a long strong male body. This personal consciousness of Gloria was also looking at the hands and going wait a minute, I'm a women and these are not my hands. And this is not my body, it was a big very strong male body. Over six feet long. It was a very different feeling in this body, it was one of male focus, intent, and will. This is not the Gloria I am in the least. So, I was trying to sit up, I couldn't pull myself up which was very strange since I was wide awake...but still in a tandra type experience obviously, but it seemed that I was wide awake. Then I went into a part of the dream scape where I was up riding a horse, then talking with many men in a large room, I remember the faces distinctly.This was all in the year 1776. Next thing I am back in this bed again trying to get out of this bed. Finally, the body rolls out of the bed and hits the floor. The bed is an old antiuqe bed which was high up like the old ones. The body hits the floor and I come up out of it only when I rolled I come out of it turned around looking at the body. That was my body as well as this one. I knew it instantly. I also knew who it was which is something that is personal which I won't share. But this is a pretty powerful experience that doesn't leave you even for a moment. If it is not reincarnation then it is a parallel experience still going on. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Gloria: I have an experience here that is pretty hard to explain other then through reincarnation. I woke up in a dream inside of a mans body, in the dream I was awake and trying to get up. I had very heavy old fashioned quilts on me. The first thing I realized in trying to push the covers down was that I had huge hands and I had a long strong male body. This personal consciousness of Gloria was also looking at the hands and going wait a minute, I'm a women and these are not my hands. And this is not my body, it was a big very strong male body. Over six feet long. It was a very different feeling in this body, it was one of male focus, intent, and will. This is not the Gloria I am in the least. So, I was trying to sit up, I couldn't pull myself up which was very strange since I was wide awake...but still in a tandra type experience obviously, but it seemed that I was wide awake. Then I went into a part of the dream scape where I was up riding a horse, then talking with many men in a large room, I remember the faces distinctly.This was all in the year 1776. Next thing I am back in this bed again trying to get out of this bed. Finally, the body rolls out of the bed and hits the floor. The bed is an old antiuqe bed which was high up like the old ones. The body hits the floor and I come up out of it only when I rolled I come out of it turned around looking at the body. That was my body as well as this one. I knew it instantly. I also knew who it was which is something that is personal which I won't share. But this is a pretty powerful experience that doesn't leave you even for a moment. If it is not reincarnation then it is a parallel experience still going on. Vivekananda Centre wrote: > "Vivekananda Centre" <vivekananda > > Re: Reincarnation --Dialogue between Ron and jay. > > Other list members may wish to contribute and take this dialogue further:- > > >>jay's first response to questions about reincarnation from Ron>> > > >> (1) Even if one case is found (we have to make sure there is no fraud) > >>where one individual is able to recount his/her past life in vivid detail > >> (including some information that absolutely no one would have known) -- > >>then Science has to take on the challenge and try and answer, "How did > >>this information travel?" There may be no genetic relationship between the > two > >> personalities. > >> Earlier you had objected to this and suggested that some kind of 'atomic > >> blueprint' was somehow left behind by the first personality and then it > >>got transferred to the other personality through the food chain...... > >> Well we then have to find an incident with two personalities where no > >>food chain link could be possible due to geographic/physical restraints. > >>(I am pretty sure you will find such incidents). Then what other physical > >> phenomenon would science use? Science has to tackle this question -- How > >>did the information travel??? > > Ron's response> > >Since you do know your physics, I am sure you are aware of Bell's theorem. > >I'm sure you are also aware of the fact that Einstein postulated that if > >you created two particles with opposite spin, send them in opposite > directions > >at the speed of light, and then change the spin of one particle, the spin > of the > >other will automatically change. How? Bell suggested superluminals. > > >Well, the experiments have been done now, and even though there is still > >controversy over superluminals, there is no doubt that the phenomenon > >Einstein predicted exists. We have seen it over a ten mile experiment so > >far. Plans are being made to try it over larger distances. > > >Bell said that if this was proven, then it meant that we are intimately > >connected to every part of the universe at the same time. > > > >You said yourself that: "The mind and soul (consciousness) > >cannot be defined as being here or there in space or time and ideas of it > >moving from here to there are meaningless. Ideas of here and there - > >entering here - leaving there are concepts of the mind - hence to say the > >mind/consciousness was here and then moved there in space/time is > >meaningless. (Space/time are concepts of the mind so how can something > >which is a by-product of the mind dictate these qualities to the mind and > >consciousness?)." > > > >Now we know that even a particle of matter already has that connection to > >all. Space/time seems like a meaningless question to it. So even without > >"mind" as a separate thing (Unless you are saying that all matter is mind > as well > >automatically) it seems that matter/energy is intelligible on it's own. > >That mind (awareness) is an inherent part of energy.matter. And that > >consciousness is a by product of a certain configuration of energy/matter. > > Further reply from jay:- > Ron if I understand you correctly you are saying "Bell's experiment > demonstrates that every particle is intrinsically interconnected and hence > the information about reincarnation may have travelled in that fashion and > perhaps not in a normal physical sense". > > Firstly Bell's experiment has not been able to override law of causality. > Anything travelling faster than the speed of light would do that. No > information can be passed on that can act to violate the law of cause and > effect. After lot of work at the Santa Fe institute they are unable to > devise any experiment which would violate cause and effect. Bells experiment > at best demonstrates that 'uncertainty' can be thought to travel faster than > light but this cannot transfer 'ordered' information which would violate > cause and effect. This is no way demonstrates that 'ordered' information > about one's life has been transferred to another person in this fashion. > To me a person recalling his past life is still be better explained by > reincarnation than by such random interconnectedness. > > Earlier jay had said > >> (2) Ideas of why identical twins both brought up in the same environment > >> will exhibit different characters -- better explained. > > Response from Ron: > >No two people can occupy the same space at the same time. Hence we will > >always have differences in experience. Twins are genetically very similar > >but not usually absolutely identical. > > jay's response > I thought identical twins are genetically same (not similar). > > Also the fact that the twins sit six inches apart in the womb, or maybe a > few feet apart after birth --would account for sometimes very dramatic > difference in personalities does not seem right. > > Earlier jay had said: > >> (3) Child prodigies -- better explained. > > Ron's response > >How does this apply? Genetics can easily account for this. > > further response from jay:- > May be it is true - just accidental genetic ordering may account for child > prodigies. > In my opinion this seems more far fetched than to think of a person who had > disciplined himself in one life and mastered say music then is reborn and > shows his talents at very early age. But I agree the debate can go both ways > on this. > > Earlier jay said: > >> (4) Phobias -- say fire, heights, water - may be better explained by > >>saying perhaps the person died through the above in the past life hence > >>the severe fear of heights, fire or water etc. > > Ron's response:- > >Or it may be trauma or perceived trauma in childhood. I remember an > >incident where I was confronted by a snake. It scared me because it stood > >up and hissed at me, menacingly. I was very small but remember it clearly. > That > >was the first time I was afraid of snakes. It left an impression on in my > brain and > >since then I have been wary of snakes and slightly afraid of them. > > > >All kids are afraid of falling. That is just a natural survival instinct. > >Some develop more fear over the years, some grow less afraid. Some of these > >things are imprinted from mom or dad, both genetically and by example. So > >there are plenty of places we can see answers to these questions without > seeing > >any proof of reincarnation. > > jay's further reply:- > The trauma that goes with this phobias is severe and to me cannot be > explained by say falling off a stool in childhood and being frightened of > heights for the rest of one's life. I understand the word trauma to mean > 'irrational fear arising from the subconscious'. Death through such causes > may be called the most traumatic experience and hence 'could' give rise to > such severe traumas arising out of the subconscious. > > Again this cannot be considered proof enough for reincarnation. It is an > interesting idea which challenges Psychologists to probe not only into the > childhood experiences of their patients but perhaps into their past lives! > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > The Best Place to Buy Movies - Reel.com > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/reel1 ">Click Here</a> > > ------ -- Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 lodpress wrote: (about dream) > It was a very different feeling in this body, it was one of > male focus, intent, and will. This is not the Gloria I am in the least. Hi Gloria, You know this sentence jumped out at me. Our personalities are like filters and in order to express our personal signatures of energy we have to necessarily de emphasize others (filter). The unconscious is essentially where we store these de-emphasized aspects. Our true nature is of course not dichotomized and we are in essence all aspects unified. I avoid the re incarnation issue because every experience, ever has at the seat of conscious, who we are, which is transpersonal. More importantly, perhaps, is to investigate why are we drawing certain types of aspects toward us from the unconscious sea of spirit? So when you say the feeling was of male focus, intent and will, I'd ask why are you drawing that? Perhaps to integrate those 'not Gloria' traits into Gloria, which of course results in something far greater than Gloria and beyond personality. David/not-David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 1999 Report Share Posted July 18, 1999 Yes, I agree there is that aspect, but it was clearly much more then this to me since it brought into another space and time, however, I have also experienced parallel universe energies where I was me in another whole circumstance, different house and children. But definitely mine and very very clear. The beyond state takes you into different places indeed, so realities at this level are very subjective. As consciousness changes the memories and awareness of being also changes so that who and what we are is very complex. Gloria David Bozzi wrote: > David Bozzi <david.bozzi > > lodpress wrote: (about dream) > > > It was a very different feeling in this body, it was one of > > male focus, intent, and will. This is not the Gloria I am in the least. > > Hi Gloria, > > You know this sentence jumped out at me. Our personalities are like > filters and in order to express our personal signatures of energy we have to > necessarily de emphasize others (filter). The unconscious is essentially > where we store these de-emphasized aspects. > > Our true nature is of course not dichotomized and we are in essence all > aspects unified. > > I avoid the re incarnation issue because every experience, ever has at the seat > of conscious, who we are, which is transpersonal. More importantly, perhaps, > is to investigate why are we drawing certain types of aspects toward us from the > unconscious sea of spirit? > > So when you say the feeling was of male focus, intent and will, I'd ask > why are you drawing that? > > Perhaps to integrate those 'not Gloria' traits into Gloria, > which of course results in something far greater than Gloria > and beyond personality. > > David/not-David > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > ONElist members are using Shared Files in great ways! > > Are you? If not, see our homepage for details. > > ------ -- Enter The Silence to know God...and...accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at:lodpress visit my homepage & internet retreat at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 1999 Report Share Posted July 21, 1999 Further to Ron's request - I had asked for some info on books with serious input on reincarnation. I was furnished with the following - please check it out. SSake <SSake vivekananda <vivekananda 21 July 1999 14:48 Re: Reincarnation >In a message dated 7/20/99 11:02:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >vivekananda writes: > ><< Can you give me references of some books written by authenticated > researchers checking on reincarnation cases. > > We need the details for science community so please give us the best reference > books you can come up with > > thanks > Vivekananda Centre > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda reply >Let me say first I am very honoured that you have requested this from me. I >have very deep respect for Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda. > >There is only one author who fits the criteria you describe, I.e., scientific >research, in the field of reincarnation, who I can recommend, Dr. Ian >Stevenson. All of his books are available through Amazon.com. I will list two >I have: > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Children Who Remember Previous Lives: A Question of >Reincarnation. University Press of Virginia, 1987. ISBN 0-8139-1140-0. > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, University >Press of Virginia, 1974. ISBN 0-8139-0872-8. > >Please note there is one other important work of his dealing specifically >with biology and reincarnation, I.e., the correspondence of birthmarks in the >current incarnation with physical wounds in the previous incarnation, >substantiated by autopsy reports. I have looked it up on Amazon: > >Stevenson, M.D., Ian. Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect, Praeger Pub >Text, May 1997, ISBN: 0-2759-5189-8. > >You can see more information on Dr. Stevenson by going to Carol Bowman's >website. Carol also does research on reincarnation herself, and her book, >"Children's Past Lives" may also be a good one to consider, though she is >more of an advocate and popularizer than a strictly scientific researcher. >Her website is at www.childpastlives.org. I believe a couple of Dr. >Stevenson's birthmark cases are profiled there. > >You should also be aware that Tom Shroder, an editor for the Washington Post, >is currently writing a book about Dr. Stevenson entitled "Old Souls: The >Scientific Search for Proof of Past Lives". He travelled with Dr. Stevenson on >two expeditions, to the Middle East and India, and as a sceptical and >objective journalist, describes the experience and his impressions. His >overall favourable impression adds credibility to Dr. Stevenson and his work. >Mr. Shroder's e-mail is shrodert. His book is being published >through Simon & Schuster, and the contact person is Victoria Meyer, Publicity >Director, e-mail victoria_meyer. > >I hope this information is of help to you and again, I am honoured to have >helped in any cause connected with Swami Vivekananda. > >Best regards, >Steve Sakellarios ----------------------- Ron let me add -- it has been a real pleasure having dialogue with you on the list. I am surprised that many others did not join in and contribute. The subject is quite interesting and fascinates most people. Can I ask you what field of science do you specialise in? If there is any other topic of common interest please let me know. Our website which delves in relationship between science and spirituality is at http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda -- then click on Science pages. warm regards jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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