Digest Number 266

[Guest guest]

>Message: 5

> Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:02:13 -0700

> Jill Eggers <eggers

>Re: [K-list] Is the cave necessary ? Was: celibacy

>

>So have I, this is has been a critical question for me ongoing since K

>awakening.

 

A clearing question do you think ?

 

I get the feeling you are searching for knowledge

most of the time.

>I mean in the larger

>sense, his strict and rigorous adherence to the scriptural dictates of his

>faith (coming mostly from the Gita). For him this was not the cave at all,

>but a life completely dedicated to selfless service, very much active and

>in the world.

 

I see.

 

Yes, I have heard about that cave as well, the

strictness and control of thought and emotions.

For me this seems like a difficult balance.

Patanjali outlines the technique of restraints and

I guess a lot of ppl on this list have been following

this Way.

 

Of course, there is something called Joyful Effort

and with K I can see it coming into play, but for

the moment, I also see that restraint may very well

lead to repression and conflict.

I find this theme very difficult to say the least.

>After K activity began for me, I immediately was drawn to Gandhi, and his

>life and words made great sense, in terms of the compelling central

>question at that time about how to integrate transcendence with living in

>the world.

 

I really relate to that.

This is exactly what a satsangh is for, to discuss

such issues.

 

Personally, as with the boot camp experiences

Jim talked about,

I think that spiritual practice and meditation

can be done in just about any aspect of "normal,

everyday" life.

6 months ago when I joined the list, I had really

big difficulties seeing how the then strong need to

be seclusive and meditate could be reconciled with

a presence in the "real world".

It did take some time, but I see that meditation

can be done on just about anything and everywhere.

For the big question: how to integrate transcendence,

that is still a big question for me.

>On the other hand, and creating the ongoing question or dilemma,

>was the outlook of the TM movement. I had practiced TM for 18 years before

>k awakening. The view of this group is that life should be lived fully and

>in balance of all spheres--moderation, no extremes.

 

Yes, that is how Buddhism sees it as well.

>This also makes sense,

>but what of service, of sacrifice? What is the right relationship between

>enjoyment and service? Daily little questions crop up--which view to apply

>here? Are they mutually exclusive?

 

) I understand your question. I have wondered

much about the same. Maybe some more experienced member

will expound on it or share some thoughts.

I think this is a question that comes to all

practitioners regardless of tradition and faith.

 

For the moment, my personal stance is that very little

should be forced. Yes, there is definitely a path and

that has been followed by others, K sort of

lights it up a little, bit by bit, but until a real

committment is landed upon, I find that honesty in

what one does is one way of discerning the seeming

split between enjoyment and service.

 

I can only share my thoughts:

I have great difficulties doing exercises like

Metta Bhavana and restraint as taught by the Indians

because it is not heartfelt and I keep yanking at the

chains. (Please ppl, no silly questions about "who yanks the chain, for whom is

the chain yanked" etc.)

In plain: it all only causes more frustration for me

and thus more attachments, negative ones.

Still, there seems to be a selection process, by

which K gives me a series of alternative reactions

and then allows me to follow these in the direction

they take. Some to my detriment, some to my joy.

I feel personally in the process of some ego crushing

and that in the end, hopefully, the restraint will

not feel like such, but more akin to freedom.

A bit contradictive, I know.

 

For me, it is much about surrender... and

fighting it all the time. LOL ! I remember Mystress

saying that she fought surrender tooth and claw.

So do I, at times.

 

Bottom line is: follow your heart. I suspect K

will provide the right answers for you. Of course,

looking at other's experiences and words is

part of this process.

>Yeah, I saw a strange book a while ago of lurid beautifully colored photos

>of Indian saddhus who went to extremes of tapas, spiritual "payment", like

>crawling around one temple on their hands and knees endlessly for years.

>Scary painful extremes. I guess all religions have examples of this.

>Self flagellation, that sort of thing.

 

Yes. It is an odd, yet understandable reaction.

Like sacrificing children.

The middle path... it is difficult to say exactly what

it is.

I only know: God is love and love should also be

afforded the body you are in now. It is a vehicle and

a fine tuned instrument. Punishment should not

be necessary... unless one feels strongly for it.

>There is also something in the Gita about this, I can't remember what

>chapter--that it is wrong to hurt oneself in the name of spiritual

>austerities--that the path is "not for those who sleep too much, or sleep

>too little", who starve themselves or are gluttons, etc.

 

Yes, sorry, I was misquoting there.

>Yeah, maybe it is best to go take a walk.

 

LOL !!!

>Here's another question into the mix: do you think active kundalini changes

>the realationship between following a faith, or tradition, and doing what

>feels right, personally?

 

Hmmm.... As someone who didn't have much faith

in anything prior to K it is hard to say...

for the moment, I feel that I want to know as much

as I can about the traditions without committing

to any particular, because some aspects of some

traditions I clearly see as having been used as

tools for power or mass conversion.

K also makes all emotions very clear and uncut

and that makes it very difficult to do any sort

of forced reaction to anything.

I suspect it is a selectioning out and an ensuring

of heartfelt reactions... maybe to prevent hypocracy,

indecent spirituality... dishonesty in general...

 

Snakes have a long tongue they taste the air with in

the vomeronasal organ (love that word)...

and by which they navigate in darkness.

I feel like that too, tasting the spiritual

traditions... slowly homing in on the target...

>Message: 9

> Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:32:35 -0500

> Jim Scroggins <Jimshead

>The Marine Corps experience

>

>Hi Amanda,

>

>Thanks for the encouragement. When you mentioned boot camp as a

>spiritual practice, it reminded me of how the entire experience had the

>nature of one long moment. I started and ended it, and time had little

>meaning throughout.

 

Yes, times of great stress tends to reduce the

concept of time...

> The techniqes involved in training Marines has a

>long history and many subtlties, which were quite clear to me as I was

>subjected to them and had the oportunity to observe 100 other men going

>through the same thing at the same time in close proximity. Some broke

>down, others excelled. I passed through it like a leaf on the wind. I

>wouldn't do it again, but I value what it gave me.

 

I can believe that. I just remembered the image

of a Japanese sword that one friend related to me

some time ago. He said that the best swords are those

whose blades allow leaves blowing in the wind

to pass freely around it

meaning they were so finely sharpened that they

were almost one with the wind.

 

It seems such a paradox; the training of soldiers

to survival of any cost in the body requires

an attentuation of their minds, a bending and

stretching of their egos and perceivements

into extreme pliancy.

Only when that process is over and the recruit

"rebuilt" through extreme external and internal

pressure and a testing of boundaries and limits

and you have a mind/body which is stronger than

previously.

> Thirteen weeks of loss of control over every aspect of your life. It's

>something to behold, and not without it's frightening aspects.

 

Yes, it seems like learning the fine art of

surrender. ))

>When I

>look at the news and see armies of children commiting unspeakable acts,

>I know that it isn't hard to get the young to do it, because there was a

>point when I would have done whatever I was ordered to do. I experienced was

well disciplined and I don't believe encouraged

>any kind of 'war crime' but it's easy to see that one could encourage

>any sort of behavior one wished in such an environment.

 

I wholly understand what you are saying and where

you are coming from.

I know this is quite far from the attitude of

ahimsa that many of the list follow, but this is

another end of the spectrum, another Way to

surrender... and knowledge.

>I saw him again years later and he was concerned that I

>had lost my respect for him, even after all that time. It had never

>occured to me, and took me by suprise. He seemed like a broken man.

 

I believe he was afraid you had lost respect for him

because he may have lost respect for himself

along the way. What a sad story.

> I had many adventures while in the service, and met some interesting

>people. It expanded my understanding of what I was capable of and how

>worldly affairs operate.

 

Yes ! LOL !

>the whole time I

>was seeing one clue after another down this strange path that just keeps

>getting more interesting and rewarding. The series of events that have

>made up who I am today could not be other than they were, and it's with

>exitement that I wait for the next turn of events.

 

Yes, a good place to start for a young man.

 

Thanks for sharing of your experiences, Jim.

They seem so personal and unique.

Had certainly not expected to see a former USMC on

this list, wondering about these questions. LOL !

>And there's the Om sound of the cooling fan in my computer.

>

>andrew

 

LOLOLOLOL !!!!!!

 

Best regards,

 

Amanda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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