Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 Dalai Lama occasionally comes to the city I live in. Each time he comes thousands of people flock to go see him. Last time when he was here, he looked at the large audience and said" I do not know why all of you come to see me. I have nothing for you except ideas. You can take some of these ideas with you, or you can throw them away if you wish". Yes, Dalai Lama is a most modest man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > >I saw a program on Dalai Lama yesterday. Very nice and moving. He said >something like, "I am not a living Buddha. That is false if anyone says it. >I am a Buddhist monk, probably, that you can say." I got a funny feeling >that he was not even quite sure of the latter. In any case, he was quite a >contrast to the many enlightened teachers declaring themselves this and that >or giving themselves the largest titles. A refreshing contrast!! Thanks Harsha-ji! --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 Don't know if you saw the same one I saw, but the interviewer asked something to the effect of, 'What do you see in your deepest meditative states?' The Dalai Lama chuckled and replied, 'Just you.' "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" wrote: > I saw a program on Dalai Lama yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 >INSprofess > >Dalai Lama occasionally comes to the city I live in. Each time he comes >thousands of people flock to go see him. Last time when he was here, he >looked at the large audience and said" I do not know why all of you come to >see me. I have nothing for you except ideas. You can take some of these ideas >with you, or you can throw them away if you wish". > >Yes, Dalai Lama is a most modest man. > Some of you have heard me tell this story before. To you, I beg your forgiveness for this repeat. About 6 years ago, while living in New Mexico, I happened to be listening to the radio when I was driving my car. This was very unusual for me, as I generally listened to taped music. An announcement came on stating the Dalai Lama would be appearing in Albuquerque in the coming weeks. I was so surprised at my reaction. I pulled the car over to write down the appearance information. I knew instantly that I would be going to see him. My decision to see him surprised me, and I remember wondering why this seemed so important. I was not a student of Tibetan Buddhism, nor would I be one to make an effort to go see a 'celebrity' who would be appearing just accross the street. Yet, I knew I would be driving for over 4 hours (round trip) to see the Dalai Lama. As I was waiting in the foyer of the auditorium with a friend just before the talk was to begin, we happened to notice the Dalai Lama and his escorts coming our way. Immediately a line was formed, rather automatically thru which they would pass. People would walk up to him, hand him a white scarf, which he would then put around their neck. He would bow a namaste bow as he walked. As he neared me, my eyes met his, he bowed, and then took a few steps toward me to bow, and then shook my hand. I will say that the moment his hand touched mine I felt a current of energy rise up from within me. Witnessing this, I realized that the energy did not "pass" from him to me, but rather that the energy 'rose up' from within me....my analogy was: as if a thermostat had been turned up. Though he spoke not a word, I heard him say, "And this too, are you". I was in such a state that night that I couldn't tell you what he talked about. Somehow, I knew that I was changed in that moment. Melody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 > I saw a program on Dalai Lama yesterday. Very nice and moving. He said > something like, "I am not a living Buddha. That is false if anyone says it. > I am a Buddhist monk, probably, that you can say." I got a funny feeling > that he was not even quite sure of the latter. In any case, he was quite a > contrast to the many enlightened teachers declaring themselves this and that > or giving themselves the largest titles. > > Harsha I'm glad to do service to you, so you could see the Daila Lama on CNN. The cable boy Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 1999 Report Share Posted August 9, 1999 On 8/9/99 at 2:50 PM Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > >I saw a program on Dalai Lama yesterday. Very nice and moving. He said >something like, "I am not a living Buddha. That is false if anyone says it. >I am a Buddhist monk, probably, that you can say." I got a funny feeling >that he was not even quite sure of the latter. In any case, he was quite a >contrast to the many enlightened teachers declaring themselves this and that >or giving themselves the largest titles. > >Harsha The Dalai Lama once stated in an interview that he would NOT reincarnate as the next Dalai Lama and there wouldn't be a next one at all; combined with the fact he admitted to flatten the occasional pesky mosquito that leaves no more question. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 1999 Report Share Posted August 11, 1999 Antoine <carrea > I saw a program on Dalai Lama yesterday. Very nice and moving. He said > something like, "I am not a living Buddha. That is false if anyone says it. > I am a Buddhist monk, probably, that you can say." I got a funny feeling > that he was not even quite sure of the latter. In any case, he was quite a > contrast to the many enlightened teachers declaring themselves this and that > or giving themselves the largest titles. > > Harsha I'm glad to do service to you, so you could see the Daila Lama on CNN. The cable boy Antoine Thanks Antoine. In the video that I saw, Dalai Lama was watching cable. Some type of a fashion show I believe, with models. When the interviewer asked him whether he thought it was enjoyable he said no. I wondered why he had it on in the first place, though, if he did not enjoy it. When asked whether he danced or listened to music the Dalai Lama responded no to each question. I was waiting for even more personal questions but they never got asked. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 1999 Report Share Posted August 11, 1999 Jan Barendrecht [kvy9] Monday, August 09, 1999 10:29 PM Re: Dalai Lama The Dalai Lama once stated in an interview that he would NOT reincarnate as the next Dalai Lama and there wouldn't be a next one at all; combined with the fact he admitted to flatten the occasional pesky mosquito that leaves no more question. Jan Jan, I also got the impression at one point in the interview that in Tibetan Buddhism, eating meat is considered consistent with compassion. In this regard Buddhism differs from Jainism as Jains are strict vegetarians as are many Hindus. This was pointed out to me and emphasized to me by Chitrabhanuji who has been a vegan for a long time now. It is said that Buddha died from eating contaminated pork. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 1999 Report Share Posted August 11, 1999 > Thanks Antoine. In the video that I saw, Dalai Lama was watching cable. Some > type of a fashion show I believe, with models. When the interviewer asked > him whether he thought it was enjoyable he said no. I wondered why he had it > on in the first place, though, if he did not enjoy it. When asked whether he > danced or listened to music the Dalai Lama responded no to each question. I > was waiting for even more personal questions but they never got asked. > > Harsha My father though me, the great joys of meeting peoples around the dinner table. This little kid sitting with those notorious people, but uncovering their simple face, in all humility, and me just listening or playing. They are no cables around a dinner table, except that of food and wine that we share. And of course the exchange are way much different than in front of a tv camera. Must be something to have the Dalai Lama or you Harsha to dine over in all simplicity. Until then, enjoying my tea Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 On 8/11/99 at 11:05 AM Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > > >Jan Barendrecht [kvy9] >Monday, August 09, 1999 10:29 PM > >Re: Dalai Lama > >The Dalai Lama once stated in an interview that he would NOT >reincarnate as the next Dalai Lama and there wouldn't be a >next one at all; combined with the fact he admitted to flatten >the occasional pesky mosquito that leaves no more question. > >Jan > >Jan, I also got the impression at one point in the interview that in Tibetan >Buddhism, eating meat is considered consistent with compassion. In this >regard Buddhism differs from Jainism as Jains are strict vegetarians as are >many Hindus. This was pointed out to me and emphasized to me by >Chitrabhanuji who has been a vegan for a long time now. It is said that >Buddha died from eating contaminated pork. > >Harsha No, it is somewhat different. Once, on visiting a Lama who was living in Holland, we found him enjoying a big stake. When my brother in law flattened a pesky fly, the lama stopped eating, started a prayer for the fly and then delivered a lecture on compassion. My sister and brother in law, vegans too, could hardly hide their feelings of disbelief. I had to write a rather hilarious poem on the matter to calm them down. But then they asked, "what is that young lady doing with the lama?" and the answer about tantra with consort wasn't liked at all:) The story of the Buddha eating pork can be explained in too many ways to be of significance but it is likely that the Buddha was a veg*an. Killing an animal for food if there is no choice is one thing, killing if there is ample choice of food is something else. An animal that is dead already can't be killed anymore so from an ethical point of view its meat can be eaten. But I came across lamas who were applying this to the supply in Western supermarkets and that is unethical; causing someone to keep on killing in order to maintain supplies. So the lama, protesting against fly-flattening was in a way sincere; The Dalai Lama, in his answers was also sincere. His answer, not to reincarnate anymore is rather clear What IS amazing, that hardly anyone realizes the meaning of that statement... It is very disappointing in fact. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Jan Barendrecht [kvy9] Thursday, August 12, 1999 9:14 AM RE: Dalai Lama "Jan Barendrecht" <kvy9 Once, on visiting a Lama who was living in Holland, we found him enjoying a big stake. When my brother in law flattened a pesky fly, the lama stopped eating, started a prayer for the fly and then delivered a lecture on compassion. My sister and brother in law, vegans too, could hardly hide their feelings of disbelief. I had to write a rather hilarious poem on the matter to calm them down. But then they asked, "what is that young lady doing with the lama?" and the answer about tantra with consort wasn't liked at all:) That is hilarious Jan. No wonder Buddhism has become so popular among men :--). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 Hi Harsha, >Jan: >Once, on visiting a Lama who was living in Holland, we found him enjoying a >big stake. When my brother in law flattened a pesky fly, the lama stopped >eating, started a prayer for the fly and then delivered a lecture on >compassion. My sister and brother in law, vegans too, could hardly hide >their feelings of disbelief. I had to write a rather hilarious poem on the >matter to calm them down. But then they asked, "what is that young lady >doing with the lama?" and the answer about tantra with consort wasn't liked >at all:) > >That is hilarious Jan. No wonder Buddhism has become so popular among men >:--). When a friend of mine went off to a Tibetan Buddhist monastery, I looked on the net to read about the program they offer. It looks like a monastery might offer some of the extraordinary yogas but not all... to study a particular yoga, you'd have to find the right monastery. Way down in the description of the program was the line: "A partner may be provided." Sounds like some monks learn sexual tantra and some don't. And I don't think it would be like taking your pick of a bunch of gorgeous gals ... probably a woman would come to your room at the appointed time... age and beauty would be considered entirely unimportant. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 1999 Report Share Posted August 12, 1999 > > > The Dalai Lama, in his answers was also sincere. His answer, not to reincarnate anymore is rather clear What IS amazing, that hardly anyone realizes the meaning of that statement... It is very disappointing in fact. > > Jan > hi Jan, What, in your opinion, is the meaning of that statement? I can think of several possibilities. andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 Dear All: Dalai Lama is presenting a world concert tour on five continents, the first will be in Los Angeles on October 16th. Farouk, a Turkish musician living now in NYC will be opening with his band, he is a very beautiful man as is his wife. L*L*L Rainbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 Dear Folks: Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on choosing not to reincarnate: This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has recently made regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the Title of Dalai Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama from somewhere in the Western Hemisphere. That is a consistent tradition (in terms of the selection process, prior to "moving on" or passing from earthly life. In such ways, he would be liberated twice. First from his duties and responsibilities as Dalai Lama ("I think of myself as a monk only") and second, since a living Dalai Lama would then be present on the earth as spiritual focus for Buddhists worldwide, then he, Tanzin Gyatso could feel free to enter the great nothing, the great light and not have "attraction" for taking on another life. Although I personally love the present Dalai Lama and think his moving on in any way whatsoever would be a great loss (and I have been close to his life and beliefs since 1967), I also believe if any among us have earned the right to such liberation, then he certainly has. There is also a shrewdness behind these remarks that goes deeper than many may at first consider. A new Dalai Lama, chosen from among people living in the West, would represent a powerful new personality that China would have even greater problems with trying to circumvent. The Chinese have been more than hinting that Monasteries in Tibet, under Chinese control or influence would be "allowed" to choose the next Dalai Lama. What we have then is point counterpoint. "My credentials as Dalai Lama are unassailable, therefore within tradition I choose my own successor, while I still live," ...so that the Chinese cannot. Further, his Holiness has slyly hinted that such a new Dalai Lama could not only be in the West, they could be of non Tibetan heritage. This is a very powerful gauntlet thrown at the Chinese. Perpetuating Tibetan Buddhism via a western person in the West means that he has created in essence a Virtual State of Spiritual Continuity that would have the full protection and support of western nations and peoples. It is not merely evolution, it is practically revolution. I will read the Chinese daily publications to note what the reactions are, as these are sure to be critical and confused. Grinning, Blessings, Love, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 >andrew macnab <a.macnab > > > >> >> >> The Dalai Lama, in his answers was also sincere. His answer, not to reincarnate anymore is rather clear What IS amazing, that hardly anyone realizes the meaning of that statement... It is very disappointing in fact. >> >> Jan >> > >hi Jan, > >What, in your opinion, is the meaning of that statement? I can think of several possibilities. > >andrew No more reincarnating usually implies nonduality (liberation). For a Tibetan Buddhist it would be rather strange to disagree on reincarnation. It is very easy to collect a few good examples in the East; during my vacation in Sri Lanka I was confronted with one. Another possibility is one of a different definition. As consciousness is unbroken, one might say there is no reincarnation and liberation is no more than having prevented to be bothered again by "encapsulation" in yet another body. But this definition isn't very Buddhistic and not in the textbooks. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 >andrew macnab <a.macnab > > > >> >> >> The Dalai Lama, in his answers was also sincere. His answer, not to reincarnate anymore is rather clear What IS amazing, that hardly anyone realizes the meaning of that statement... It is very disappointing in fact. >> >> Jan >> > >hi Jan, > >What, in your opinion, is the meaning of that statement? I can think of several possibilities. > >andrew No more reincarnating usually implies nonduality (liberation). For a Tibetan Buddhist it would be rather strange to disagree on reincarnation. It is very easy to collect a few good examples in the East; during my vacation in Sri Lanka I was confronted with one. Another possibility is one of a different definition. As consciousness is unbroken, one might say there is no reincarnation and liberation is no more than having prevented to be bothered again by "encapsulation" in yet another body. But this definition isn't very Buddhistic and not in the textbooks. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 > "Jan Barendrecht" <hc19436 > No more reincarnating usually implies nonduality (liberation). For a Tibetan Buddhist it would be rather strange to disagree on reincarnation. It is very easy to collect a few good examples in the East; during my vacation in Sri Lanka I was confronted with one. Another possibility is one of a different definition. As consciousness is unbroken, one might say there is no reincarnation and liberation is no more than having prevented to be bothered again by "encapsulation" in yet another body. But this definition isn't very Buddhistic and not in the textbooks. > > Jan > Since the Dalai Lama's intent is to minimize suffering, and since he is able to decide whether and how he incarnates, perhaps he considers that he can be of greater service to living beings by incarnating as someone or something other than the next Dalai Lama. Or, since the Dalai Lama's function is to rule and be a head of state for Tibet, perhaps his decision not to reincarnate as D.L. is recognition that Tibet is no longer a free and autonomous state. Or he is trying to avert disputes with the Chinese over his succession, it's quite likely that the Chinese govt. will attempt to put forward a puppet as his reincarnation. Or, perhaps he has decided that he is no longer going to be needed because he thinks the world is ending. Or... andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 On 8/13/99 at 12:05 PM ZEN2WRK wrote: >ZEN2WRK > >Dear Folks: > >Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on choosing not to >reincarnate: > >This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has recently made >regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the Title of Dalai >Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama from somewhere >in the Western Hemisphere. [...] A former acquaintance knew Kalu Rinpoche rather well. Apart from that, this acqaintance was an MD and what is called an advanced practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism (especially the inner fire). He was certain that Kalu Rinpoche was keeping the body alive with yogic powers for the sake of devotees and was "far beyond" reincarnation. So the issue changes into "can a Nirvani reincarnate yes or no". Before starting to speculate on that, consider "what" it is that reincarnates. The statement by the Dalai Lama regarding no more reincarnating was of course done in a small group and wasn't intended to get known at all. So there can be several reasons why popular figures "have" to reincarnate. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 On Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:25:57 +0100 "Jan Barendrecht" <kvy9 writes: > "Jan Barendrecht" <kvy9 > > On 8/13/99 at 12:05 PM ZEN2WRK wrote: > > >ZEN2WRK > > > >Dear Folks: > > > >Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on > >choosing not to reincarnate: > > > >This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has > recently made > >regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the > >Title of Dalai > >Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama > >from somewhere in the Western Hemisphere. > [...] > > A former acquaintance knew Kalu Rinpoche rather well. Apart > from that, this acqaintance was an MD and what is called an > advanced practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism (especially the > inner fire). He was certain that Kalu Rinpoche was keeping the > body alive with yogic powers for the sake of devotees and was > "far beyond" reincarnation. So the issue changes into "can a > Nirvani reincarnate yes or no". Before starting to speculate > on that, consider "what" it is that reincarnates. The > statement by the Dalai Lama regarding no more reincarnating > was of course done in a small group and wasn't intended to get > known at all. So there can be several reasons why popular > figures "have" to reincarnate. > Not the least of which might be the Bodhisattva Vow. http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm m(_ _)m _ _________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 1999 Report Share Posted August 13, 1999 In a message dated 8/13/99 4:38:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, editor writes: << Not the least of which might be the Bodhisattva Vow. >> Most perceptive, and historically true. Blessings, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 Message: 10 > Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:05:40 EDT > ZEN2WRK >Re: Dalai Lama > >Dear Folks: > >Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on choosing not to >reincarnate: > >This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has recently made >regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the Title of Dalai >Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama from somewhere >in the Western Hemisphere. That is a consistent tradition (in terms of the >selection process, prior to "moving on" or passing from earthly life. In >such ways, he would be liberated twice. Snip> >Zenbob > > Dear Zenbob, Thanks for mentioning all these possible reasons for changing the succession selection process. The previous way basically leaves them without a leader or with a child in training, which may not have been so critical when Tibet remained isolated, but is a tremendous burden under the present circumstances. Yet I thought all the Dalai Lamas were considered to be one person reincarnated, so when did they previously pass the succession by naming while still alive? There is much opinion that those people currently remaining in Tibet have suffered more loss of traditional cultural values than the refugees who have been free to continue religious customs in India and elsewhere. This would be yet another reason to not seek the next Dalai Lama in the traditional way. What do you know of this from your long interest in following the situation? Also, is not the Bodhisattva intent considered the usual reason for reincarnating, rather than any other attraction to remaining here? My own interest is rather recent, so I welcome your input here. Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 >> ZEN2WRK >>Re: Dalai Lama >> >>Dear Folks: >> >>Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on choosing not to >>reincarnate: >> >>This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has recently made >>regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the Title of Dalai >>Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama from >somewhere >>in the Western Hemisphere. Actor Steven Segal was reportedly told by the Dalai Lama that he (Segal) is a reincarnation of a former Lama. What's the chance that the next Dalai Lama will be not only from the Western Hemisphere, but a Hollywood leading man? -- Max (from Minnesota, where we elect actor/wrestlers to govern us) --------------------------- FREE - yourname - Just visit http://www.philosophers.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 1999 Report Share Posted August 17, 1999 >> ZEN2WRK >>Re: Dalai Lama >> >>Dear Folks: >> >>Regarding His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and his remarks on choosing not to >>reincarnate: >> >>This would be wholly consistent with other comments he has recently made >>regarding his thought that he may not continue to hold the Title of Dalai >>Lama and could very well choose or select the next Dalai Lama from >somewhere >>in the Western Hemisphere. Actor Steven Segal was reportedly told by the Dalai Lama that he (Segal) is a reincarnation of a former Lama. What's the chance that the next Dalai Lama will be not only from the Western Hemisphere, but a Hollywood leading man? -- Max (from Minnesota, where we elect actor/wrestlers to govern us) Dear Max, There are lamas and then there are lamas... Did you know that Richard Gere sponsored His Holiness's latest New York appearance? Still, I would not attribute THAT degree of desperation to the fact they are so sadly dependent on western financial support. Those few who can even get visas to stay in the USA are not finding educational and medical help to be so readily available as it is in Canada, so lately they are migrating there. Also Canada has been less restrictive about granting political asylum as well and will admit people with a simple travel document from India. The USA considers Tibetans born in India as non-Tibetans for purposes of asylum anyway, tho India does not grant them citizenship..as they are refugees there. One of those catch-22 things. I went to the recent teachings in New York, and I can vouch that HH most definitely does not dumb down or cater to the audience. Do you think such an intellectual approach can appeal to large numbers in the West? Tho I skipped the Central Park scene on Sunday for the masses, so I don't know about that. Gloria - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 1999 Report Share Posted August 18, 1999 Dear Gloria: Your perspective and information is valuable. I agree with your conclusions, but you wrote: I went to the recent teachings in New York, and I can vouch that HH most definitely does not dumb down or cater to the audience. Do you think such an intellectual approach can appeal to large numbers in the West? Tho I skipped the Central Park scene on Sunday for the masses, so I don't know about that. I believe that it can, so long as the Dalai Lama avoids being intellectual in America for more than 3 minutes. The rest of the West can certainly absorb intellectual discourse for up to several hours. Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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