Guest guest Posted September 10, 1999 Report Share Posted September 10, 1999 > >David: Sri Nisargadtta: > >"Words are valuable for between the word and its meaning there is a link >and if one investigates the word assiduously, one crosses beyond the >concept into the experience at the root of it. As a matter of fact, such >repeated attempts to go beyond the words is what is called meditation. >Sadhana is but a persistent attempt to cross over from the verbal to the >non-verbal." Dan: David - this is interesting - it seems to indicate that cognitively impaired or autistic children who never learned to use language are enlightened. It also suggests that we might well consider using grunts and groans as speech so as to make meditation easier for us. In my mind, using language doesn't have to be a barrier, the nonverbal realms can be as conditioned by thought and memory as the verbal, and the verbal and nonverbal realms are far more connected than might be apparent from this quote. >"What you need for your salvation is already within your reach. Use it. Dan: In this quote, I am not sure what it is that the speaker feels I need to be saved from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 1999 Report Share Posted September 10, 1999 > "Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > > >> > Dan: David - this is interesting - it seems to indicate that cognitively > impaired or autistic children who never learned to use language are > enlightened. It also suggests that we might well consider using grunts and > groans as speech so as to make meditation easier for us. In my mind, using > language doesn't have to be a barrier, the nonverbal realms can be as > conditioned by thought and memory as the verbal, and the verbal and > nonverbal realms are far more connected than might be apparent from this > quote. > > >"What you need for your salvation is already within your reach. Use it. > > Dan: In this quote, I am not sure what it is that the speaker feels I need > to > be saved from. > > > David: Perhaps I took too much context away from around these quotes, Dan. The questioner who prompted these replies first asks about the words "I AM" and why Nisargadatta emphasizes them and why just focussing on those words as self-inquiry would help him. So we assume that the questioner is not an autistic nor a pre-verbal being speaking in grunts and groans but a spiritual seeker. As far as salvation, the questioner has asked Sri Nisargadatta something about God and various plans for Salvation and where that fits, prompting Nisargadatta's reply. My sense is that Nisargadatta would agree with you, that the there is nothing that the questioner needs to be saved from. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 1999 Report Share Posted September 10, 1999 >David: Perhaps I took too much context away from around these quotes, >Dan. The questioner who prompted these replies first asks about the words >"I AM" and why Nisargadatta emphasizes them and why just focussing on >those words as self-inquiry would help him. So we assume that the >questioner is not an autistic nor a pre-verbal being speaking in grunts >and groans but a spiritual seeker. >As far as salvation, the questioner has asked Sri Nisargadatta something >about God and various plans for Salvation and where that fits, prompting >Nisargadatta's >reply. My sense is that Nisargadatta would agree with you, that the there >is nothing that the questioner needs to be saved from. Dan: "Ask and I shall receive" - Thank you for your explanation. Yes, that does clarify the matter quite a bit. A note on your response - your way of answering me indicates that you are aware of the importance of context in understanding the meaning of a question and an answer. This awareness in itself seems very useful. It suggests that whenever we are wanting to understand the "meanings" of assertions, we need to look at the context, who was asking, who was answering, what was the situation. No universal truths can ever be apparent from these verbal exchanges - merely conditional truths communicated at a particular time in a particular situation, by specific people using conditioned concepts understood in a particular way. There most likely would be nuances in the conversation you shared of which only Nisagardatta and the questioner were aware, and of which we cannot possibly be aware. We can only guess. As for universal truth, whatever that might be, our best approach seems to be to realize what it is not - to see the contradictions and limitations we expose in ourselves even as we "seek" universal truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 1999 Report Share Posted September 10, 1999 Dan Berkow, PhD wrote: A note on your response - your > way of answering me indicates that you are aware of the importance of > context in understanding the meaning of a question and an answer. This > awareness in itself seems very useful. It suggests that whenever we are > wanting to understand the "meanings" of assertions, we need to look at the > context, who was asking, who was answering, what was the situation. No > universal truths can ever be apparent from these verbal exchanges - merely > conditional truths communicated at a particular time in a particular > situation, by specific people using conditioned concepts understood in a > particular way. It's a dream path i often did have. And i share it here for it seems to fit nicely with your note Dan. My dreams where that i was a human chameleon. I would listen to someone, and as i would listen, i would transform myself into the person, so i came to understand the person beyond words, looking from the "self" within it, as it experienced the words, or in other words, his or her words started to have deeper roots in meaning for me, the context becomes shared, experienced rather than simply communicated. Of course my dream would grow. If i was a chameleon to humans and there signs they use to communicate. Why not be with other things and worlds. And puff off i was from listening in the conversation, turning into sunsets, atoms, and all those wonders. Touched Einstein mind, "chameleoning" into my first physic teacher at 14, without ever reading about him, could writte is formulas on the black board, before the teacher showed them to us. Even gave the course sometimes, in the presence of the teacher, quite a good teacher he was for me. Some call it channeling and all that stuff, or being empath, or telepathy, i call it being simply there and listening to others. There is a bug for me in doing that now, i do not see others anymore, at least less, so that the fire i want to chameleon into vanishes into totality before i could taste it as an entity fully separated from me. Must say that my hammer at work, when it touches my thumb still reminds me that wath i just said is a lie as well as a truth. Wanting to chameleon or kiss or turn into the world in its totality as a Beloved is a path among many, and i don't know which is better than which, simply sharing my experience. Who knows, maybe someone does Listen... And why not that of Einstein: "A human being is part of the Whole...He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest...a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security". Words do talk, in the same way as Einstein talking here of a He in a prison striving to widen it. We simply need to listen to the word grow back into experience, as the roots of a flower in the ground, like tasting a good wine, made with the attention of Love, brings you back to the land and the sun shining on the grapes it was made from. Antoine > There most likely would be nuances in the conversation you shared of which > only Nisagardatta and the questioner were aware, and of which we cannot > possibly be aware. We can only guess. As for universal truth, whatever > that might be, our best approach seems to be to realize what it is not - to > see the contradictions and limitations we expose in ourselves even as we > "seek" universal truth. -- Through the coming, going, and the balance of life The essential nature which illumines existence is the adorable one May all perceive through subtle intellect the brilliance of enlightenment. A translation of the Gayatri Mantra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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