Re:Ivan/world and self

September 22, 1999

ivan: I am aware that we have discussed this before, but i would like to

go back to it. Why do you call a set of changing behaviour patterns, a set

of memory associations a self? there is no continuity to them.

Dan: That's true. The attempt to have a continuous entity amidst

infinite movement/stillness is the "self".

The attempt to experience infinite change/stillness as sensorily detectable

"entities,categories" or "things" is ... the "world"

Ivan: There is no

fixidity to them. What is that content that you give a name to -- as self?

Dan: Not.

Ivan: The "feeling" of continuity in time, of fixidity as an entity, where

the

conceptual construct of the former self-centered image projecting entity.

Dan: There is a feeling of continuity, and along with that there is

perception, belief, and assumption. Without any continuity there is also

no such thing as "no continuity." There must be some awareness of

continuity in order for the concept "no continuity" to have any meaning.

If there is neither continuity nor discontinuity there is simply *instant*

*no beginning-no end*

*immediate birth-death*

September 22, 1999

ivan: I am aware that we have discussed this before, but i would like to

go back to it. Why do you call a set of changing behaviour patterns, a set

of memory associations a self? there is no continuity to them.

Dan: That's true. The attempt to have a continuous entity amidst

infinite movement/stillness is the "self".

The attempt to experience infinite change/stillness as sensorily detectable

"entities,categories" or "things" is ... the "world"

ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

It wouldn´t be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

*created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

--

Ivan: There is no

fixidity to them. What is that content that you give a name to -- as self?

Dan: Not.

--

Ivan: The "feeling" of continuity in time, of fixidity

as an entity, wherethe conceptual construct of the

former self-centered image projecting *entity.*

Dan: There is a feeling of continuity, and along with that there is

perception, belief, and assumption. Without any continuity there is also

no such thing as "no continuity." There must be some awareness of

continuity in order for the concept "no continuity" to have any meaning.

ivan: Yes there is indeed this sense of continuity. It is one

of the aspects of the human dimension, human world. Without

any sense of continuity a human being couldn´t live inthis world.

And exactly this sense of continuity concerning the basic needs

for life - like the basic body needs - when carried to the realm

of an inner entity, as a center, because of some primordial

misconception, is the motive of the arrising of the observer

as a separate inner being.

Dan:....If there is neither continuity nor discontinuity there

is simply *instant*

*no beginning-no end*

*immediate birth-death*

===============================================

Diálogos em Português sobre o universo não-dual. Vá até

www. e busque: - Unicidade - Seja bem-vindo.

===============================================

September 22, 1999

ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

It wouldn´t be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

*created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

Dan: Yet there is a question about it - at each moment -

each moment of sensation/mind/body arises uncertainty.

The senses seek to confirm themselves and maintain

continuity of mind. How real is this seeking?

Does it need to be dissolved, or can it simply

be seen through?

ivan: Yes there is indeed this sense of continuity. It is one

of the aspects of the human dimension, human world. Without

any sense of continuity a human being couldn´t live inthis world.

And exactly this sense of continuity concerning the basic needs

for life - like the basic body needs - when carried to the realm

of an inner entity, as a center, because of some primordial

misconception, is the motive of the arrising of the observer

as a separate inner being.

Dan: Okay. And there is also a question about the sense of continuity

involved in "the world" as well. Isn't the self as inner entity

constructed in reaction to perceived continuity "outside" and a demand

made from "outside" that such an inner entity "exist"? Is not

ending the one who is "inside" simultaneously an ending of "things"

and "beings" that appear "outside"? (I'm speaking of perception

and awareness here, not

about blowing up the world - and not about going "blank").

September 22, 1999

ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

It wouldn't be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

*created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

Dan: Yet there is a question about it - at each moment -

each moment of sensation/mind/body arises uncertainty.

The senses seek to confirm themselves and maintain

continuity of mind. How real is this seeking?

Does it need to be dissolved, or can it simply

be seen through?

ivan:Yes, dissolved is a wrong word. Seen through is much

better. The only thing that realy seems to dissolve, disapear,

vanish, is the boundary that separated the inner something,

as being fundamentaly diferent from the universe. It is realy

strange to look at this. Where is that matter that was formerly

that frontier? Well, in fact such frontier never was. This realisation

seems to liberate a formerly stagnated energy - establishing

a new dinamic equilibrium of the inner energetic body.

And indeed, the search of certainty, of security, issuing

from a center is the very insecurity of the self.

--

ivan: Yes there is indeed this sense of continuity. It is one

of the aspects of the human dimension, human world. Without

any sense of continuity a human being couldn't live in this world.

And exactly this sense of continuity concerning the basic needs

for life - like the basic body needs - when carried to the realm

of an inner entity, as a center, because of some primordial

misconception, is the motive of the arrising of the observer

as a separate inner being.

Dan: Okay. And there is also a question about the sense of continuity

involved in "the world" as well. Isn't the self as inner entity

constructed in reaction to perceived continuity "outside" and a demand

made from "outside" that such an inner entity "exist"? Is not

ending the one who is "inside" simultaneously an ending of "things"

and "beings" that appear "outside"? (I'm speaking of perception

and awareness here, not

about blowing up the world - and not about going "blank").

ivan:Yes. Not that bodys will vanish in the air. But certainly

the realisation of the fallacy of the inner being is the ending

of the oustside beings also. The manifested world is empty

of being. It is a play of forces, a chain of reactions. What remains

is the way the senses perceive, colors, sounds, smell etc...and

also many sets of programs that allow one to live in the world.

It is a never ending discovery...And then there is the heart....

Because something imense, imesurable, is present...

September 22, 1999

> Ivan wrote:

> ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

> It wouldn´t be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

> without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

> *created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

> eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

> in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

> one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

> a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

Are you only one man?

> ----

> Ivan: There is no

> fixidity to them. What is that content that you give a name to -- as

> self?

What is the content of one man?

> ivan: Yes there is indeed this sense of continuity. It is one

> of the aspects of the human dimension, human world. Without

> any sense of continuity a human being couldn´t live inthis world.

> And exactly this sense of continuity concerning the basic needs

> for life - like the basic body needs - when carried to the realm

> of an inner entity, as a center, because of some primordial

> misconception, is the motive of the arrising of the observer

> as a separate inner being.

Ok... So there is the man.

> ===============================================

> Diálogos em Português sobre o universo não-dual. Vá até

> www. e busque: - Unicidade - Seja bem-vindo.

> ===============================================

Can i have my degree in non dualism? For portguese the man will have to

wait another life.

Antoine

September 23, 1999

> Ivan wrote:

> ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

> It wouldn´t be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

> without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

> *created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

> eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

> in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

> one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

> a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

Are you only one man?

ivan:I definitly only know one man in it´s entirety. But i look around

and see, and know that there are other people around for sure. How

many man do you know from inside out, in contraposition to outside in?

But let´s not be smart. There is a mistery...completly out of the reach

of human comprehension, wich is -- how the one entirety fragmented

into these non-fragmented fragments.

> ----

> Ivan: There is no

> fixidity to them. What is that content that you give a name to -- as

> self?

What is the content of one man?

ivan: There is the phisiological content, obviously. And there may be

a psichological conceptual content as a separate inner

being, observing the world. When the later is seen through,

the man is the mind of mankind as a whole...Within existence

as a whole, there is this manifestatation as the world of mankind.

A certain degree of the relative subject object relation goes on, but

it does not obscure the centerless awareness of the unknown.

> ivan: Yes there is indeed this sense of continuity. It is one

> of the aspects of the human dimension, human world. Without

> any sense of continuity a human being couldn´t live inthis world.

> And exactly this sense of continuity concerning the basic needs

> for life - like the basic body needs - when carried to the realm

> of an inner entity, as a center, because of some primordial

> misconception, is the motive of the arrising of the observer

> as a separate inner being.

Ok... So there is the man.

ivan: Yes. There is the human field, the human dimension. Within

this human dimension, runs a huge powerfull river, that manifests

itself in human beings as separativness, as selfishness, as fragmentation

within itself. If this river could be seen through, one would remain with

what is....this human perception being itself. Once,... something chose to

be this human.....so now we should live it through. And after? I don´t know....

> ===============================================

> Diálogos em Português sobre o universo não-dual. Vá até

> www. e busque: - Unicidade - Seja bem-vindo.

> ===============================================

Can i have my degree in non dualism? For portguese the man will have to

wait another life.

Antoine

ivan: You mean a degree to add to your curriculum? I don´t know....

maybe you should ask the winner of the Swami contest...LOL

abraços

ivan

September 24, 1999

> > ivan: ...and this body/mind/sensorium needs a world to exist.

> > It wouldn´t be possible for this body/mind/sensorium to be,

> > without the human world. In fact it is it. This dimension was

> > *created* not only by this particular man, it is the result of

> > eons of human existence. It is a world, a level, extablished

> > in the mode of a quantum step. It can not be *dissolved* by

> > one man -- although it can undergo changes as a result of

> > a deep consciousness modification as a whole.

>

> Are you only one man?

>

> ivan:I definitly only know one man in it´s entirety. But i look around

> and see, and know that there are other people around for sure. How

> many man do you know from inside out, in contraposition to outside in?

> But let´s not be smart. There is a mistery...completly out of the

> reach

> of human comprehension, wich is -- how the one entirety fragmented

> into these non-fragmented fragments.

Inside an outside, inside out and outside in, when do those "sensations"

or modes of being usually occur? It is one of my fascination to observe

the manifestation of those modes of being as they occur. Like was time

for me for a while. I am not saying that time is not felt anymore in the

way my personality interacts in this world. But there has been a time in

my life, where time was believed to be an absolute necessity to support

my consciousness as a form. I felt i was _inside_ time. It does not fell

that way anymore to my personality, the "sensation" of time is more like

a flavor, a color, a perfume, a caress, that comes and goes like music,

no end, no beginning, no arrow to time, simply a song.

In the same way, the rigidity of the inside/out vs outside/in argument,

seems to have less and less meaning as an argument, from my still

limited experience of this personality. And i just find it fascinating

to watch it open like the millions petals of a flower to the sky.

Yes this one fragmented into these non-fragmented fragments is a mystery

for human comprehension.

Antoine

--

Through the coming, going, and the balance of life

The essential nature which illumines existence is the adorable one

May all perceive through subtle intellect

the brilliance of enlightenment.

A translation of the Gayatri Mantra

September 25, 1999