Long, stuff on Zen and Vajrayana

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gloria Lee wrote:

>

> Would you mind my asking which traditions you are most familiar with?? I

> have long enjoyed you poems and thoughtful and insightful comments. ( Please

> just skip the current silliness posts, if its bothering you, ok? Never can

> tell when some fun is needed by people...) My first experience was with

> Thich Nhat Hanh, reading and attending a retreat..then recently some

> learning of Tibetan. I may start attending an actual Tibetan group, once I

> face up to spending spending the whole day there. Yet my reading has been

> mostly Zen focused, soI feel uncertain about actually choosing one over the

> other. I hope you and everyone else understands that my postings on the

> history of Buddhism are based on what is said in the book, and not claiming

> any personal expertise by any means.

 

silliness was ok, just that one struck as particularly gagging tho .

 

ok, looking up from the barfbag, going into information overload mode:

 

The two traditions i have practised in are Korean Zen/Soen and Tibetan

Vajrayana. There are also Vajrayana lineages in China and Japan as i

understand it, so not all Vajrayana is Tibetan. Zen is from China, and has

forms of itself in Malaysia, Korea, Japan etc.

 

My zen master had me doing koans. Koans are things like "what is the sound

of one hand clapping?" and are designed to prod one's mind into actually

seeing nondualistically. Not just thinking one is seeing thus, but

actually experiencing it firsthand. He also had me doing prostrations, and

mantras. I would do as a mantra the name of Kwan Se Um Bosal, who is the

Korean form of the Bodhisattva of Compassion. So when i would sit in

meditation, sometimes it was visualizing Kwan Se Um Bosal and repeating

these words on a mala 1000 times or 100 times, or sometimes it was putting

myself really into my koan and becoming it. I had a few small 'satori'

experiences, and i worked very hard at it. While doing Zen ms. kundalini

showed up in my life again and i started having strange meditational

experiences just about every time i would go into retreat. It got annoying

after a while. It was distracting, and i really wanted it to be quiet so i

could focus on developing one-pointed awareness of nowness.

 

Probably because of the weird stuff, i got interested in Vajrayana type

practises. Thought they would help control it and get it to be useful

instead of annoying.

 

My vajrayana guru has me doing diety yoga, mostly around Jetsun

Phakma Drolma, or

Green Tara. Since i had done Zen before i got into Vajrayana, i have not

done shi'nay, or calm abiding meditation that is a common starting ground

for people when they first get into Vajra meditations. I dont know how

common it is to just jump into diety yoga like i did. There are 4 levels

of this by the way, Kriya yoga tantra, i forgot the name of the second

level, i think its Carya or Upa, yoga tantra, and anuttara yoga tantra.

Kriya up to Yoga tantra are known as the outer tantras, and anuttara is

the inner. Nyingmapa lineages subdivide the inner tantras into another 3.

 

Everyone, including myself, will probably say the same thing, go slow into

this. Be sure you are ready to keep the pledges and stuff that go with

intiations into the higher classes of diety yoga. if you just want to get

your feet wet, a Kriya practise like Green Tara or Chenrezi is quite

wonderful. When you have developed a relationship with a guru, and have

quite convinced yourself she or he is worth committing too, (like after 12

years or so traditionally), then maybe he or she will (at your asking, you

have to ask them normally!) take you into the higher classes if that is

what you need to help spark your way into enlightenment.

 

Another common practise is something called the ngondro, which means

preliminary practise. Usually it consists of accumulating 100,000

prostrations before objects of refuge, 100k Vajrasattva mantras, 100k

mandala offerings etc etc. (takes a while to finish) The point is to

prepare the student to be able to practise by purifying one's body, speech

and mind.

 

Zen and Vajrayana are two paths up the same mountain. Both are Mahayana

vehicle, which is the Bodhisattva's path, in which one commits to living

for everyone else, and making sure everyone else can find the way to end

suffering in their life. Of course the best way to do that is to end

suffering in your own life, and attain Buddhahood.

 

Hope this helps, i am no teacher, just a rather lazy student at times !

 

maitri,

 

--janpa tsomo (sanskrit: maitreya samuudraarya)

[Guest guest]

 

Debora A. Orf <dorf01

< >

Thursday, September 23, 1999 1:57 PM

Long, stuff on Zen and Vajrayana

 

>"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01

>

>On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gloria Lee wrote:

>>

>> Would you mind my asking which traditions you are most familiar with?? I

>> have long enjoyed you poems and thoughtful and insightful comments.

Please

>> just skip the current silliness posts, if its bothering you, ok? Never

can

>> tell when some fun is needed by people...) My first experience was

with

>> Thich Nhat Hanh, reading and attending a retreat..then recently some

>> learning of Tibetan. I may start attending an actual Tibetan group, once

I

>> face up to spending spending the whole day there. Yet my reading has been

>> mostly Zen focused, soI feel uncertain about actually choosing one over

the

>> other. I hope you and everyone else understands that my postings on the

>> history of Buddhism are based on what is said in the book, and not

claiming

>> any personal expertise by any means.

>

>silliness was ok, just that one struck as particularly gagging tho .

>

>ok, looking up from the barfbag, going into information overload mode:

 

This is wonderful!!! Sounds like many years of experience here, janpa. How

"auspicious" to have found teachers available to you where you live. You

must be the reason for my reading the history book! HA! Seriously, before

this would have been gobbleygook to me, but now I am familiar with the

different schools you mention and a bit of what types of practices and how

they differ in emphasis of beliefs. The group you are getting together

should provide some interesting discussions. I think what is is confusing is

to read about Buddhism and NOT know about these different paths and how the

cultures of different countries produce their own version. I love the

flexibility and openness to change and how Buddhism never goes against the

prevailing culture or religion. The way it allows for individuality with the

84,000 dharma doors for example. That there is no "one right way" for

everyone, especially the subjectivity of satori in Zen.

>

>The two traditions i have practised in are Korean Zen/Soen and Tibetan

>Vajrayana. There are also Vajrayana lineages in China and Japan as i

>understand it, so not all Vajrayana is Tibetan. Zen is from China, and has

>forms of itself in Malaysia, Korea, Japan etc.

 

Yes, Thich Nhat Hanh is Vietnamese, of course and Zen. Other people keep

inviting me to see these people, same with the Dalai Lama teachings in NYC,

so I go. ( Be careful of inviting me anywhere, I may turn up.:) (What you

say here is all in the history, I have to re-read it to write the summaries,

so I better get back to doing that soon. But I love hearing your direct

personal experience with all this.)

>

>My zen master had me doing koans. Koans are things like "what is the sound

>of one hand clapping?" and are designed to prod one's mind into actually

>seeing nondualistically. Not just thinking one is seeing thus, but

>actually experiencing it firsthand. He also had me doing prostrations, and

>mantras. I would do as a mantra the name of Kwan Se Um Bosal, who is the

>Korean form of the Bodhisattva of Compassion. So when i would sit in

>meditation, sometimes it was visualizing Kwan Se Um Bosal and repeating

>these words on a mala 1000 times or 100 times, or sometimes it was putting

>myself really into my koan and becoming it. I had a few small 'satori'

>experiences, and i worked very hard at it. While doing Zen ms. kundalini

>showed up in my life again and i started having strange meditational

>experiences just about every time i would go into retreat. It got annoying

>after a while. It was distracting, and i really wanted it to be quiet so i

>could focus on developing one-pointed awareness of nowness.

 

Was this when we were back on that old K-list 2 yrs ago? Some times I wonder

if K wouldn't just be coincidentally happening anyway, and perhaps there is

no causal relation with how you meditate. I guess if one did nothing else

for hours, it could intensify anything. The strangest things would and still

do seem to set off reactions in me, then I got to wondering if it mattered

at all, to look for reasons I mean. One of the differences in ways to

meditate is whether to allow whatever comes up, without resistance or

struggle against it (vipisanna?) or to do the one point concentration method

by several means. Again I gather both end up in the same place eventually.

Gee, how many different ways to meditate can there be, huh? I liked the

mindfulness teachings for the emphasis on present moment awareness and

really being here for others, listening and paying attention. The first

thing we studied in grad school for counseling is how to really listen,

cause practically no one does this naturally. Just reading stuff here with

email is not the same as "doing the work" as they say, but I sure have

learned a lot over the past two years from the variety of people posting.

>

>Probably because of the weird stuff, i got interested in Vajrayana type

>practises. Thought they would help control it and get it to be useful

>instead of annoying.

 

I'm curious, but you needn't answer if this is too nosy. How much do you

feel your first teacher understood or advised you to handle the experiences

you were having? Was he experienced with K symptoms?

>

>My vajrayana guru has me doing diety yoga, mostly around Jetsun

>Phakma Drolma, or

>Green Tara. Since i had done Zen before i got into Vajrayana, i have not

>done shi'nay, or calm abiding meditation that is a common starting ground

>for people when they first get into Vajra meditations. I dont know how

>common it is to just jump into diety yoga like i did. There are 4 levels

>of this by the way, Kriya yoga tantra, i forgot the name of the second

>level, i think its Carya or Upa, yoga tantra, and anuttara yoga tantra.

>Kriya up to Yoga tantra are known as the outer tantras, and anuttara is

>the inner. Nyingmapa lineages subdivide the inner tantras into another 3.

 

I read that Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche had his first American students do

preliminary practices for 4 years before he even told them there WERE 4

levels. Ha!

>

>Everyone, including myself, will probably say the same thing, go slow into

>this. Be sure you are ready to keep the pledges and stuff that go with

>intiations into the higher classes of diety yoga. if you just want to get

>your feet wet, a Kriya practise like Green Tara or Chenrezi is quite

>wonderful. When you have developed a relationship with a guru, and have

>quite convinced yourself she or he is worth committing too, (like after 12

>years or so traditionally), then maybe he or she will (at your asking, you

>have to ask them normally!) take you into the higher classes if that is

>what you need to help spark your way into enlightenment.

>

>Another common practise is something called the ngondro, which means

>preliminary practise. Usually it consists of accumulating 100,000

>prostrations before objects of refuge, 100k Vajrasattva mantras, 100k

>mandala offerings etc etc. (takes a while to finish) The point is to

>prepare the student to be able to practise by purifying one's body, speech

>and mind.

 

See, I can't get into objects and deities like Green Tara, tho I know they

represent lovely qualities. I did like the mutual bowing of person to

person, tho. Does this sort of grow on you?

>

>Zen and Vajrayana are two paths up the same mountain. Both are Mahayana

>vehicle, which is the Bodhisattva's path, in which one commits to living

>for everyone else, and making sure everyone else can find the way to end

>suffering in their life. Of course the best way to do that is to end

>suffering in your own life, and attain Buddhahood.

>

>Hope this helps, i am no teacher, just a rather lazy student at times !

>

>maitri,

>

>--janpa tsomo (sanskrit: maitreya samuudraarya)

 

See, right away my laziness says, "Choose Zen, then." I think I love

Buddhists more than becoming one myself. Even in large numbers like 800 or

5, 000 at a time..the vibes are so peaceful and good, and normally crowds

don't feel so loving to me. I admit I even dozed off when the Dalai Lama was

talking, then it was a bit too warm in there and waiting for the

translations got boring. By chance I did get close to Richard Gere when he

left... that was exciting. I'm kidding, the movie star thing does nothing

for me actually.

 

Thanks again for sharing so much, your experiences are very interesting, and

see, somehow it does produce such lovely people like you.

 

Love,

Glo

[Guest guest]

Hi Glo,

>>My vajrayana guru has me doing diety yoga, mostly around Jetsun

>>Phakma Drolma, or

>>Green Tara. Since i had done Zen before i got into Vajrayana, i have not

>>done shi'nay, or calm abiding meditation that is a common starting ground

>>for people when they first get into Vajra meditations. I dont know how

>>common it is to just jump into diety yoga like i did.

>snip<

>See, I can't get into objects and deities like Green Tara, tho I know they

>represent lovely qualities.

 

It is a lot of work. First you learn to build up extremely elaborate

visualizations. Then you tear them apart.

>Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:49:26 -0500

>kundaliniheat

>Dharma <fisher1

>Re: [kundaliniheat] Into higher gear

>snip<

>The various traditions or kinds of teachings of Tibetan Buddhism are

>classed as either Sutra or Mantra (also known as Tantra). From the

>Introduction to Jamgon Kongtrul's _Creation & Completion: Essential Points

>of Tantric Meditation_:

>

>>Tantra refers to a special kind of literature of esoteric teachings and

>>also to those teachings themselves and their practice. The path of Tantra

>>is also called Vajrayana, the "Indestructible Vehicle." ... Another name

>>for it is the "Secret Mantra," reflecting the widespread use of special

>>sounds and syllables called mantras.

>

>The path of Tantra or Vajrayana includes Creation Stage and Completion Stage:

>

>>CREATION STAGE

>>Visualization practice works with our relationship to the phenomenal

>>world of appearance and seeks to undermine its solidity and shift it into

>>an alternate, awakened perspective. The word often used for this process

>>is jong wa (sbyong ba), which has a wide range of meanings, including to

>>purify, purge, train, exercise, study, accustom, and cultivate. In this

>>translation, "purify" is used in the sense of a thorough work over and

>>radical shift. Four aspects of "purification" are mentioned as a

>>framework for understanding. The basis or ground of purification is

>>buddha nature. That which needs purifying or removing are the conceptual

>>and emotional obscurations to this nature, which are merely incidental

>>and not intrinsic to it. That which does the purifying is deity practice.

>>The fruition of purification is full recognition of the ground.

>>

>>COMPLETION STAGE

>>snip<

>> The creation stage undermines attachment to the solid, impure

>>phenomenal world, but can still leave us with the traces of attachment to

>>this new manifestation that we have created or perceived. So in the

>>completion stage the whole new wonderful world dissolves back into basic

>>ground, from which it never really departed. In the context of

>>relationship with life cycles mentioned above, this stage corresponds to

>>death. Recognizing that the visualization was created in the first place

>>by mind, empty and radiant, and dissolves back into it, purifies or

>>prepares us for the process of actual death, when this realization can

>>result in full awakening.

>> Within the context of meditation, there is no longer a visualized

>>form to work with, but there is still mind. So the discussion of

>>completion stage begins with a description of the mental process itself,

>>so that the practitioner can be aware of exactly what is happening. The

>>tradition of examining and analyzing the mental process has been a

>>mainstay of Buddhist practice since its inception. It is sometimes

>>referred to as Buddhist psychology.

>

>There are also the Extraordinary Practices or yogas, in which Kundalini is

>used in various ways for various kinds of work. Here are some very

>specific uses for the energy, though the closest secrets seem to be still

>maintained and are "whispered" by the teacher to the student. These are

>also considered to be Completion Stage practices.