The way to Enlightenment

[Guest guest]

Mira:

>Help!

>Is this the way to Enlightenment?

>Makes me feel sorry for Enlightenment,

>makes it so far off.......

>all those turns........

>when it is always here and nowhere else......

 

Dharma:

> This sounds very Buddhist. ) So what bothers you about discussing the

> various traditions within Buddhism?

 

 

Oh no bothers about discussing any tradition!

My mind just completely fails to comprehend all those words, turns, stages,

steps.....

Mind just gives up and goes blank.

Et voilá!

Enlightenment!

 

Love always,

 

Mira

[Guest guest]

>Mira:

>>Help!

>>Is this the way to Enlightenment?

>>Makes me feel sorry for Enlightenment,

>>makes it so far off.......

>>all those turns........

>>when it is always here and nowhere else......

>

>Dharma:

>> This sounds very Buddhist. ) So what bothers you about discussing the

>> various traditions within Buddhism?

>

>Mira:

>Oh no bothers about discussing any tradition!

>My mind just completely fails to comprehend all those words, turns, stages,

>steps.....

 

That's mostly history. Ever notice how the Indian mind seems to love

making lists of things? (It gets kind of funny in the _Kama Sutra_. ) I

think the Tibetans inherited some of that.

 

Here's the basic story:

----

 

Tibetan Buddhism:

 

Sutra Tantra

 

Reading sutras Creation stage

Practicing virtue Completion stage

Controlling mind Extraordinary yogas

(also called

Completion stage)

-----

>Mind just gives up and goes blank.

>Et voilá!

>Enlightenment!

 

That's another way it works!!! What should we call that?

 

Your straight man,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

>Mira:

>Oh no bothers about discussing any tradition!

>My mind just completely fails to comprehend all those words, turns, stages,

>steps.....

 

Dharma:

That's mostly history. Ever notice how the Indian mind seems to love

making lists of things? (It gets kind of funny in the _Kama Sutra_. ) I

think the Tibetans inherited some of that.

 

Here's the basic story:

----

 

Tibetan Buddhism:

 

Sutra Tantra

 

Reading sutras Creation stage

Practicing virtue Completion stage

Controlling mind Extraordinary yogas

(also called

Completion stage)

-----

 

Mira:

>Mind just gives up and goes blank.

>Et voilá!

>Enlightenment!

 

Dharma:

That's another way it works!!! What should we call that?

 

 

Uh?

How about just for once not call it anything?

(please please, just once....

we can always go back to giving it a name......)

 

The practical Lady

 

Mirror

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:27:17AM -0500, Dharma wrote:

> That's mostly history. Ever notice how the Indian mind seems to love

> making lists of things? (It gets kind of funny in the _Kama

Sutra_. )

 

Those introductions make for a lot of typing, too! Actually,

it's nice to see someone on the list talk about an actual

tradition. Most of the conversation on the list doesn't do

that, yet many of us have had exposure to various traditions,

?no?

 

With love,

 

Greg

[Guest guest]

>>Mira:

>>>Mind just gives up and goes blank.

>>>Et voilá!

>>>Enlightenment!

>>

>>Dharma:

>>That's another way it works!!! What should we call that?

>>

>>Your straight man,

>>Dharma

>

>Uh?

>How about just for once not call it anything?

>(please please, just once....

>we can always go back to giving it a name......)

>

>The practical Lady

>

>Mirror

 

Okay, sorry... Guess it was too late at night for jokin' around. )

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Gregory Goode wrote:

>

> Gregory Goode <goode

>

> On Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 06:27:17AM -0500, Dharma wrote:

>

> > That's mostly history. Ever notice how the Indian mind seems to love

> > making lists of things? (It gets kind of funny in the _Kama

> Sutra_. )

>

> Those introductions make for a lot of typing, too! Actually,

> it's nice to see someone on the list talk about an actual

> tradition. Most of the conversation on the list doesn't do

> that, yet many of us have had exposure to various traditions,

> ?no?

 

Hello Greg,

 

Yes, here is one. I could not finish my super installation for cable

modem and digital tv today at a client house, because i had no access to

connect a wire outside the house, since a small jewish family, in

another house, was in prayer in a small wood house they had build, just

under the place to connect to the cable into the network, to celebrate

their tradition. And my company respects that, (the lawyers of the

company i should say . It was beautiful to see this small family in

ceremony, and my client understanding she could not have her gods of

technology, turned into simple gadgets, before weeks in respect of a

tradition.

 

It's also funny how we seem to project the way society is run around us,

on how we run ourselves. Traditions are beautiful in that way to look

at, and live, for me personally. Yet hard to transmit otherway then

directly, it seems.

 

Without tradition, what is there left? To put into "context" what you

said before Greg, "Without experience, we can't say there's a world;

without a world, we can't say there's experience. Seen that way, neither

side is taken as a real, solid pivot point with inherent existence."

 

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

>> That's mostly history. Ever notice how the Indian mind seems to love

>> making lists of things? (It gets kind of funny in the _Kama

>Sutra_. )

>

>Those introductions make for a lot of typing, too!

 

Thanks for the appreciation, but actually I have a scanner right here. Not

much work, except to read through and make coreections.

>Actually,

>it's nice to see someone on the list talk about an actual

>tradition. Most of the conversation on the list doesn't do

>that, yet many of us have had exposure to various traditions,

>?no?

 

Right! And we have people here who are rich in various traditions. I

think I'm going to post something speculative, just because I'm trying to

find out more about it... and maybe I can get some answers.

 

Well, now you're kind of nudging me... I also scanned two sections

explaining Creation Stage and Completion Stage more fully. Didn't know

whether to post them, but I will.

 

When I heard Rinpoche speak on this book, the only thing that disappointed

me was that I wanted to hear more about the extraordinary yogas, but he was

sticking to the book. It mentions them, but that's about it.

 

I've seen notices recently about lamas speaking publicly and doing

workshops on subjects that I wouldn't have expected outside the monastery,

so I'm hoping they may have decided to loosen up with some of the secret

material.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dharma,

 

which Rinpoche did you meet? which lineage? where?

 

janpa wants the gory details cause she's insatiably curious as always .

 

maitri,

 

--janpa

 

| Debora A. Orf | "Women and cats will do as they please,

| dorf01 | and men and dogs should relax and

| | get used to the idea." --Robert A. Heinlein

 

http://www.win.org/library/staff/webweaver

[Guest guest]

Hi janpa,

>which Rinpoche did you meet? which lineage? where?

 

I looked for my notes to be absolutely certain, but all that stuff is still

in boxes. I feel certain he's Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso, who wrote the

Foreward to the book, because the flyer said he wrote the Introduction

(which looks like a mistake). Well hey, nobody ever called him anything

but Rinpoche.

 

I looked to see what lineage Kongtrul was, and that didn't help. But his

life was so interesting I scanned it for you... it's down below. The

Foreward is printed as on stationery, and the heading says "Marpa Institute

For Translators... Under the Spiritual Authority of Khenpo Tsultrim

Gyamtso Rinpoche." That's in Kathmandu, Nepal. The translator studied in

Kathmandu and other places. The Library of Congress info says Rnin-ma-pa

(Sect)... that's Rnin with a tilde over the first n and a dot over the

second n. Would that possibly be Nyingma?

 

He came here to San Antonio, Texas... he was travelling around the

country, doing his lecture series on the book. My Jin Shin therapist,

Connie, had a shrine in a room of her office, and the local group met there

on Thursday evenings for meditation. The weekend lecture series was held

at Connie's home in the country.

>janpa wants the gory details cause she's insatiably curious as always .

 

Well, Rinpoche isn't handsome in the Hollywood sense... his features are

not particularly regular... but such love emanates from him! He's

beautiful! We were all assembled first, waiting for him, and when he came

in, such a presence coming into the house! Such love! I don't know how

anyone managed to look solemn around him... I had a silly grin, I know.

(My eyes were probably spinning around, too.

 

We were sitting on rows of cushions on the floor of the big living room.

We all stood as he entered, and then did three obeisances, going down on

the knees and putting the forehead on the floor. It was my first

experience of that, but it felt quite familiar and normal. The weird thing

was that everyone seemed to be racing to do the obeisances just as fast as

they possibly could, so the whole roomful of people were all jumping up and

down as fast as they could go! )) I had to be careful dropping down, not

to bang my head into the fanny of the guy in front of me.

 

Rinpoche and his translator, a lama born in Canada, sat at the side of the

room... in front of us. Rinpoche has the look of a happy, simple peasant,

to me at least. But his understanding and his grasp of Kongtrul's book and

the whole subject matter was thorough and complete... and he answered all

questions carefully and straightforwardly. Once there was a question and

then some discussion of the nature of physical reality and in what sense

the tree outside the window could be said to exist. I asked, "It is said

that a master of Dream Yoga can treat the physical world like the dream

world... that he could make that tree disappear. Is that true?" His

answer was, "I do not know it of my own experience. But they say so." And

he smiled.

 

It was interesting to watch the translator. Rinpoche would speak... maybe

a long paragraph. Sometimes the translator would sit quietly for a couple

of minutes, as though he was arranging it all in his head. Then he would

begin to speak in English. So I felt it was more than a word-for-word

translation. If there was something he wasn't sure of, he would ask

Rinpoche a question, and they would have a little dialogue in Tibetan.

Then he would nod, sit, and speak again.

 

One day a large group of us went to lunch at an outdoor Mexican restaurant.

We were seated at one long table, and I was lucky enough to sit across from

Rinpoche and next to the translator. There wasn't a lot of deep

conversation, because his English isn't good and also the place was really

too noisy. But that's when I asked him, "Can I be a Buddhist without

renouncing the Christ?" He smiled and said, "Yes." And that was that! )

 

I had a private interview with him, and I have followed his advice. I

don't consider him my primary guru... that's my own spiritual guru, GB.

But I figured if I was led to ask him a question, I should follow what he

told me.

 

He gave me a medal (medallion?) on a red cord and a small package of

incense. (He gave them to everybody.) He said the incense comes from the

lineage... they mix new incense in with the old, so the incense carries

the vibrations and maybe some of the actual incense from hundreds of years.

A very precious gift! I have used a little just once, when I felt I needed

extra help and support.

 

I saw him once again before he left town... I was invited to a friend's

home, and he met with a small group of us for a while. I can't remember

now anything he talked about... just his smile and the love.

 

And here's the story of:

 

JAMGON KONGTRUL

 

Jamgon Yonten Gyamtso Lodro Thaye was one of the spiritual and literary

giants of nineteenth-century Tibet. The scope of his accomplishment is

enormous, and his tremendous influence in the religious development of the

Himalayan region cannot be underestimated. He is renowned for his crucial

role in the non-sectarian (rimay; ris med) movement of Eastern Tibet (Kham)

that was revitalizing religious life of the time. This cultural renaissance

was an exciting time of spiritual and intellectual evolution that gave rise

to a great many exceptional religious figures: Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo

(1820-1892), Mipam Gyamsto (1846-1912), and Chokgyur Dechen Lingpa

("Chokling" 1829-1870), to name a few. Even among these great masters,

Kongtrul's name looms large.

Kongtrul was largely successful in his lifetime in accomplishing the

three main goals that characterized this non-sectarian, eclectic movement:

to preserve the various practice lineages that were verging on extinction,

to discourage the narrow-minded sectarian bigotry that had plagued Tibet

for centuries, and to reintegrate religious study and practice in a

meaningful way in the lives of its practitioners. The acute necessity for

these changes was instigated by the long history in Tibet of power politics

invading the realm of religion and the resulting degeneration in authentic

spiritual practice. Fortunately, the pure lineage of practice was never

lost entirely, and throughout the history of the region there have

continued to be great masters who have risen above sectarianism through the

power of the true teachings. Jamgon Kongtrul is certainly such a one, and

perhaps his own personal experiences with the unsavory side of religious

politics and pettiness contributed to his greatness.

Kongtrul was born in December of 1813 in Rongyab in Kham, Eastern

Tibet. He was raised by his mother, Tashi Tso, and her husband Sonam Pel,

who was a village lama of the pre-Buddhist Bon religion. Kongtrul was

thoroughly trained by Sonam Pel as a Bon priest, and quickly mastered that

tradition. He described himself later as gentle and shy, but with an early

spiritual propensity.

Around the age of fourteen, his life and training were abruptly

interrupted. Due to a local feud, authorities from Derge, the capital of

the area, captured Sonam Pel and took him off to prison, where Kongtrul

followed in order to help sustain him. There he made connections with some

teachers of the Nyingma school, who were greatly impressed with his

knowledge of Bon. This led to his acceptance to the Nyingma monastery of

Shechen, where he entered in 1823 and received full monastic vows in 1832.

The monastic institutions of Tibet were bastions of power and intrigue, and

an established monastery with good connections could wield a great deal of

power. Though Kongtrul was apparently quite happy with his studies at the

Nyingma monastery, his exceptional talents caused him to be requisitioned

as a secretary for a high lama of Palpung, a powerful Kagyu monastery. He

moved there in 1833 and was advised to retake his monastic ordination under

the principal head of that monastery, Situ Pema Nyinche. Presumably the

ordination he had received just one year earlier didn't "count" because it

was from a different order. His objections were overruled and the vows

retaken. This occasion may have been Kongtrul's first disillusionment with

the petty sectarianism of the monastic world, but a further political

maneuver was to follow. The Palpung lamas were concerned lest his

outstanding qualities attract the attention of the Derge government, which

could requisition him for its own purposes. So they devised a plan to

install him as an incarnation of a previous Palpung personage, which would

assure his permanent position there. They chose the late servant of the

previous Situ incarnation, a position not too high but still an incarnate

lama, that would serve their purpose adequately. He was "recognized" as

such and received the name "Kongtrul."

Despite this background of political intrlgue, Kongtrul sincerely

regarded Situ Pema Nyinche as his primary guru and Palpung monastery as his

seat. He continued his studies under this great lama, and came to consider

himself as a holder of the Kagyu lineage. His primary interest had always

been in actual meditation practice, so in 1842 he left the main monastery

to take up residence in an old, abandoned retreat center nearby, which

turned out to be near a sacred power site, known as Tsandra Rinchen Trak.

This he eventually (1860) transformed into a three-year retreat center and

designed a curriculum that is still the model for similar retreats today.

Before this, however, he had come to feel regret with what he

considered a lapse in his connection with the Nyingma lineage, and he

attributed this as the cause for later ill health and various mental and

karmic obstacles. Gradually he worked through these problems, largely with

the help of the great Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo and Chokling Rinpoche. The

two of them recognized him as a revealer of hidden treasures (terton), and

bestowed on him the name Tennyi Yungdrung Lingpa. During the later part of

his life he fulfilled this role, bringing forth many new hidden treasures,

often in conjunction with Khyentse. The relationship benveen Kongtrul and

Khyentse, the two "Jamgon Lamas" was very profound and mutually inspiring,

and it is often difficult to tell who was the guru and who the disciple.

They became powerful forces in the entire region, and were able to pacify

some of the conflicts that arose due to sectarian competition.

Kongtrul developed a profound faith in all aspects and lineages of

the Buddha's teaching. All manifestations of the Dharma are for the benefit

of beings, and rejecting any aspect of them basically amounts to rejecting

the Buddha's doctrine. The symptoms of the inner conflict caused by the

sectarian and political problems seem to have been resolved by the time

Kongtrul was forty years old, when he went on to establish the retreat

center and continue his prolific writings. The program of the retreat

included meditations from all of the practice lineages, some of which were

disappearing within the overbearing monastic institutions of the four main

schools. Thus through his teaching and writing he preserved the rich

variety of precious instructions of all lineages and fostered a sense of

appreciation and mutual respect. The non-sectarian movement flourished in

large part due to his contribution. It is still a powerful influence that

all of the great lamas since Kongtrul have supported. The power of

Kongtrul's influence will hopefully continue to prevail even in the West,

where hints of ignorant sectarianism sometimes creep in.

Kongtrul continued has activities until the time of his death in 1899

at the age of eighty-seven. The enormity of Kongtrul's contribution was

expressed by the late Dudjom Rinpoche as follows:

 

So if we examine Jamgon Kongtrul's career, which produced

over ninety volumes of wonderful scripture, it is as if he

spent his whole life as an author.

Nonetheless, if one thinks of his teaching and propaga-

tion of the empowerments, guidance, esoteric instructions,

recitational transmissions, and so forth, of the ancient and

new sutras and tantras, and transmitted precepts and trea-

sures, without bias, it is as if he spent his whole life teaching

and propagating. And, if one investigates how, beginning

with the preliminary yogas of accumulation and purifica-

tion, he experientially cultivated the stages of creation and

completion associated with inconceivable myriads of man-

dalas, it seems as if he passed the length of his life in a

retreat house sealed up with mud.

Likewise, if one considers how Jamgon Kongtrul

expanded the new monastic communities at the place of

attainment in Tsandra Rinchen Trak and Dzongsho Deshek

Dupa, and how he renovated many old establishments,

commissioned inconceivable numbers of new representations

of the buddha body, speech, and mind, performed more

than one hundred and fifty rites of great attainment involv-

ing mandala clusters, offered worship to the Three Precious

Jewels, and venerated the monastic community - in short,

his legacy in connection with the ten modes of doctrinal

conduct - it is as if he passed his whole life diligently

engaged in the sphere of work and activity. In these ways

[his career] was inconceivable, within only the reach of

those who are truly sublime.

 

LITERARY WORKS

The collected literary works (gsung 'bum) of Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye

take up ninety volumes in the complete Palpung edition. Traditionally they

are divided into five collections, called the Five Great Treasuries (mdzod

chen lnga) listed below, and they fulfill the early prediction of Jamyang

Khyentse Wangpo that Kongtrul would produce five such treasures. Most of

them were collected during the time of Kongtrul's administration of the

retreat center near Palpung, and many works were composed for the specific

study program there. Together the Five Great Treasuries represent the

entire range of Buddhist philosophy and practice of all the sects. Their

very composition and arrangement is a testimony to Kongtrul's non-sectarian

approach. His intention in bringing together this vast collection was to

reveal the essential similarities of the various approaches as well as to

preserve them.

 

1. The Encompassment of AII Knowledge (shes bya kun khyab) or Treasury of

Knowledge (shes bya mdzod) in three volumes covers the full range of

Indic-Tibetan knowledge, from the forming of the universe up to the history

of Buddhist lineages and practices in Tibet. It includes the common

sciences and all the philosophical viewpoints as well as the religious

history. This masterpiece in itself would have been a stupendous

accomplishment for one person's life.

 

2. The Treasury of Kagyu Mantra (bka' brgyud sngags mdzod) in four or six

volumes is a collection of the esoteric teachings and practices from two

transmissions of the Kagyu, Marpa and Ngog, as well as some from the

Nyingma.

 

3. The Treasury of Precious Treasure (rin chen gter mdzod) in sixty or

sixty-three volumes is not just a reproduction of the older cycles of

treasure texts that are still extant, as is sometimes thought, but contains

smaller basic texts, supplementary works, new liturgical texts and

introductory instructions for other treasures, all pertaining to the

Nyingma.

 

4. The Treasury of lnstructions (gdams ngag mdzod) in ten volumes is a

systematic presentation of the most important instructions of all the

different lineages, especially of the Eight Great Chariots of Practice.

 

5. The Extraordinary Treasury (thun mong ma yin pa'i mdzod) and its

auxiliary The Treasury of Vast Precepts (rgya chen bka' mdzod), comprising

ten volumes, contains Kongtrul's own revealed treasures as well as many

other writings that don't belong in any of the other Treasuries.

 

The text translated here is a tiny drop in this vast, deep ocean.

[Guest guest]

Dharma,

 

Thanks for the story - it's very sweet. Do you get together with

the local group when he's not in town?

 

--Greg

 

....snip...

> He came here to San Antonio, Texas... he was travelling around the

> country, doing his lecture series on the book. My Jin Shin therapist,

> Connie, had a shrine in a room of her office, and the local group met there

> on Thursday evenings for meditation. The weekend lecture series was held

> at Connie's home in the country.

 

....snip...

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

>Thanks for the story - it's very sweet. Do you get together with

>the local group when he's not in town?

 

I was meeting with them on Thursday nights. Then I got heavily involved on

the net and particularly with one person and then another. It seems like I

made some mistakes there, but I can see that it was a time of rapid karmic

clearing and rapid learning. I dropped all my outside contacts here... a

year ago July I had a breakdown and started putting myself together again.

 

Now I'm fine... and still an internet hermit, but a happy one now. I

spend my time on the net and in meditation and K work, etc. I'm teaching

again... via the net now. I go to a meditation group every night... a

group of us on Charlie Zetow's list (Kjade ) get together every

night for meditation, sharing heart chakra love, and sometimes healing. I

want to get my web site going... I don't charge for teaching, but I could

use some money from doing astrology.

 

I keep thinking I should get in touch with local friends and groups

again... but I don't find much motivation to go looking for people.

Writing about our local Buddhist group and Rinpoche has been inspiring...

I think I'll go again... and see the new shrine and meditation center that

Connie and her husband were building... I think they're meeting there now.

I've talked to my friend Lynea, and I want to go to her weekend workshop in

karmic clearing again... graduates can drop in for any length of time...

free. I want to refresh myself in using her techniques and see what new

goodies she has to offer. And a couple of years ago some local people

were asking me to teach... I didn't feel ready, my K. was too new. Now

I'm ready to start a group and teach locally, if I can whip up some

motivation... in myself, that is. )) It's so easy to just be here,

working with my guides and my students and writing to friends and groups on

the net.

 

And how has life been treating you, my friend?

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 11:51:55AM -0500, Dharma wrote:

> Dharma <fisher1

>

> Hi Greg,

>

> >Thanks for the story - it's very sweet. Do you get together with

> >the local group when he's not in town?

>

> I was meeting with them on Thursday nights. Then I got heavily involved on

> the net and particularly with one person and then another. It seems like I

> made some mistakes there, but I can see that it was a time of rapid karmic

> clearing and rapid learning. I dropped all my outside contacts here... a

> year ago July I had a breakdown and started putting myself together again.

>

> Now I'm fine... and still an internet hermit, but a happy one now. I

> spend my time on the net and in meditation and K work, etc. I'm teaching

> again... via the net now. I go to a meditation group every night... a

 

What do you teach?

> were asking me to teach... I didn't feel ready, my K. was too new. Now

> I'm ready to start a group and teach locally, if I can whip up some

> motivation... in myself, that is. )) It's so easy to just be here,

> working with my guides and my students and writing to friends and groups on

> the net.

 

Yes, the net is very seductive in that way.

>

> And how has life been treating you, my friend?

 

Through the net also, a group of people came together spontaneously in

New York City, when a lot of advaita teachers started coming through.

Many of the local people were graduates of the Sedona Method. For the

last 2 years, we have a Tuesday evening satsang, teacherless. Many

people, including every kind of background, from therapy to travelling

teachers, drop in when they are in town. (the group is on the

sentient.org/amber page under "groups," and is also in the Greg Goode

section on Jerry's site.) There's a lot of love, joy, friendship and

togetherness in our Tuesday evening group.

 

Gotta go now, catch some sun, rike my bike, maybe do a bit of

roller-disco at Central Park.

 

Love,

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/25/99 9:52:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fisher1

writes:

 

<<

>>Mira:

>>>Mind just gives up and goes blank.

>>>Et voilá!

>>>Enlightenment!

>>

>>Dharma:

>>That's another way it works!!! What should we call that?

>>

>>Your straight man,

>>Dharma

>

>Uh?

>How about just for once not call it anything?

>(please please, just once....

>we can always go back to giving it a name......)

>

>The practical Lady

>

>Mirror

 

Okay, sorry... Guess it was too late at night for jokin' around. )

 

Love,

Dharma

>>

Relax, relax, it's nothing. Nothing to worry about. Nothing needs to be

named. Let's name it Nothing. See, then we have nothing on our minds,

nothing to concern us and nothing in common.

 

To quote John Lennon, "nothing's gonna change my world..."

 

 

Blessings

Love,

 

Zenbob