Guest guest Posted September 29, 1999 Report Share Posted September 29, 1999 >Glo: Seriously, I have been carefully reading your discussion with Dan. Dan: Nice to know - appreciate your care - although hopefully, not too "seriously" (You just >can't tell from my comments.) It just struck me funny how you guys are using >those very same mental powers to like "criticize" the mind for using them. >Like if its so terrible, why do you keep doing >it so much? Dan: Glo - where did you ever get the idea that I'm criticizing a "mind"?? Now, that would really be a silly thing for me to be doing... From my perspective - I want to "open everything up" into whatever it opens into.... (I think we're both striking each other as funny right now - maybe the best thing to do is just laugh :-) ) Glo: When I want to actually stop thoughts, the last way for me to do >this is to think and analyze how my mind works. Dan: While I truly appreciate silent awareness, the last thing I'm intending is to stop thoughts... Wouldn't this simply create a duality between thought and the "thought stopper" (whoever that might be) Glo: I am also not very inclined >to be analytical of experiences afterwards, either...for me its more >intuitive, feelings, perceptions. I paint pictures or plant flowers or stare >at clouds. Dan: Yes - there is only opening into "this" -- analysis is itself only a cloud of another sort - you can stare into it or look away at the blue sky -- either way -- this is a perfect moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 ......... Dan Berkow, PhD <berkowd < > Wednesday, September 29, 1999 11:04 AM Re: Gloria/analysis >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > > >>Glo: Seriously, I have been carefully reading your discussion with Dan. > >Dan: Nice to know - appreciate your care - although hopefully, not > too "seriously" > >(You just >>can't tell from my comments.) It just struck me funny how you guys are using >>those very same mental powers to like "criticize" the mind for using them. >>Like if its so terrible, why do you keep doing >>it so much? > >Dan: Glo - where did you ever get the idea that I'm criticizing a "mind"?? > Now, that would really be a silly thing for me to be doing... > From my perspective - I want to "open everything up" into > whatever it opens into.... > (I think we're both striking each other as funny right now - > maybe the best thing to do is just laugh :-) ) Ok, let's laugh... who cares if I am considered a frivolous idiot? The more I try to get people to lighten up..the more I seem to get taken too seriously. Ahh, but you see thru my ruses and emotional tantrums to the real me who really is silly. > >Glo: When I want to actually stop thoughts, the last way for me to do >>this is to think and analyze how my mind works. > >Dan: While I truly appreciate silent awareness, the last thing I'm > intending is to stop thoughts... Wouldn't this simply > create a duality between thought and the "thought stopper" > (whoever that might be) Only to a smart guy like you would this create a duality, for me this is no problem. To me criticizing, over-analyzing, and thinking too much are roughly equivalent "disorders." When my mind is going in circles like a stuck record, yes I do want these thoughts to stop. More thinking about how or why my mind does this is not helpful at that time. "Somehow" I redirect my attention to tune into a more peaceful channel. I agree that "thinking stop thoughts" does not work either, while losing myself in flowers or clouds does help. Again, you persist in expecting me to articulate this in some extrememly precise manner.. why can't you accept my vague references, Dan? I am almost to the point of giving up writing here, when my every word is analysed to this extent. Its not just you... Bruce, Gene, and Jan have chimed in at length.., all basically telling me I am wrong. I'm sorry, guys..I just don't have time to go over and re-explain everything I say to this extent. I do enjoy reading what you all write..perhaps its better I don't comment at all if I can't do it well. Sadly, Glo >Glo: I am also not very inclined >>to be analytical of experiences afterwards, either...for me its more >>intuitive, feelings, perceptions. I paint pictures or plant flowers or stare >>at clouds. > >Dan: Yes - there is only opening into "this" -- analysis is > itself only a cloud of another sort - you can stare into it > or look away at the blue sky -- either way -- this is > a perfect moment... > >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Nowhere is Now Here. All paths, places, and sights and perceptions exist only in the Space of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Here. You are not "in" the now. You Are the Now! Here is Home. Home is where True Rest Is. Home is where the Heart Is. It is the Seer resting in the Seer, the Self-Nature, the Buddha Nature, or call it what you will. The Radical Truth is Radiance of Awareness. It is both the path, process, and the goal. It is Finality of Being without any support. It is Total Independence and Ever Present. The Truth of the Self needs no psychological or spiritual crutches. It needs no philosophy, no religion, no explanation, no teaching, and no teacher, and yet It is always their support. A true devotee relishes in the Truth. The Truth of Self-Knowledge which is Pure Intelligence. Welcome all to a. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 Dear Gloria: We are faced with the dilemma of the mind trying to explain the mind to other minds. Please understand that everyone is just having fun with their brain toy and I am sure, mean you no harm. It's just that when guys, in particular discover the joys of dialectic and logic, they can rage on for hundreds of years splitting non existent hairs, heirs and hares. I think there is some illumination to this discussion, but pictures work better than words, although words can fine tune an image...but I agree that some things cannot be "explained" with any actual reality or accuracy...they must be experienced...else it is only the blind swapping tales of Fine Art with the blind. Certainly we should forgive the excess, but fellows, hey, lighten up and enjoy the sweet smell of autumn while it lasts, OK? Autumn, like your discussion of thought/mind/existence is something that must be experienced and no amount of definition, dialectic, logic or cataloguing will ever come close to without the actuality of personal immersion in it. And few if any people can experience autumn in exactly or even remotely the same way. Does this mean that there are a million autumns? Or one experienced by man? If a man walks through an autumn forest has he caused the season? Is the season beautiful whether or not anyone can appreciate it? Angels, pin heads. Sometimes it's not just the discussion but the people who can be made allegory with. Argue less, listen more and above all, be mindful and learn to experience more fully and always with love and compassion uppermost. Gloria...don't be saddened...I feel your hurt and understand your frustration...be at peace...they will learn when they learn and there is always time to smile and laugh at this thing we mistakenly call life. Blessings Love, Zenbob <<<(:~})> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 Hi ZenBob! Hope your foot is feeling much better ~ what happened? This post here below makes me feel a lot better ~ I have found the hair splitting 'unusual' myself. You seem to have brought back the zest! Thanks again, Col ZEN2WRK wrote: > ZEN2WRK > > Dear Gloria: > > We are faced with the dilemma of the mind trying to explain the mind to other > minds. > > Please understand that everyone is just having fun with their brain toy and I > am sure, mean you no harm. It's just that when guys, in particular discover > the joys of dialectic and logic, they can rage on for hundreds of years > splitting non existent hairs, heirs and hares. > > I think there is some illumination to this discussion, but pictures work > better than words, although words can fine tune an image...but I agree that > some things cannot be "explained" with any actual reality or accuracy...they > must be experienced...else it is only the blind swapping tales of Fine Art > with the blind. > > Certainly we should forgive the excess, but fellows, hey, lighten up and > enjoy the sweet smell of autumn while it lasts, OK? > > Autumn, like your discussion of thought/mind/existence is something that must > be experienced and no amount of definition, dialectic, logic or cataloguing > will ever come close to without the actuality of personal immersion in it. > And few if any people can experience autumn in exactly or even remotely the > same way. Does this mean that there are a million autumns? Or one > experienced by man? If a man walks through an autumn forest has he caused > the season? Is the season beautiful whether or not anyone can appreciate it? > > Angels, pin heads. Sometimes it's not just the discussion but the people who > can be made allegory with. > > Argue less, listen more and above all, be mindful and learn to experience > more fully and always with love and compassion uppermost. > > Gloria...don't be saddened...I feel your hurt and understand your > frustration...be at peace...they will learn when they learn and there is > always time to smile and laugh at this thing we mistakenly call life. > > Blessings > Love, > > Zenbob <<<(:~})> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 1999 Report Share Posted September 30, 1999 On 9/30/99 at 10:18 AM Gloria Lee wrote: [...] >>Dan: While I truly appreciate silent awareness, the last thing I'm >> intending is to stop thoughts... Wouldn't this simply >> create a duality between thought and the "thought stopper" >> (whoever that might be) > >Only to a smart guy like you would this create a duality, for me this is no >problem. To me criticizing, over-analyzing, and thinking too much are >roughly equivalent "disorders." When my mind is going in circles like a >stuck record, yes I do want these thoughts to stop. Why would you like to stop those thoughts? The wish to stop them is what makes them run around; attention is directing to the thoughts. Put them onto music or process them in a poem; when successful, the current of like/dislike will reverse (according to the motto "if you can't beat them, join them"). More thinking about how >or why my mind does this is not helpful at that time. The "how" is only a "must" for the repair division and the "why" is the food of philosophers... "Somehow" I redirect >my attention to tune into a more peaceful channel. I agree that "thinking >stop thoughts" does not work either, while losing myself in flowers or >clouds does help. Losing oneself in anything will help. It is the unity of observer, thinking and observed; for the painter, it means art being created without awareness of anything else. Thoughts are flowing but in unity, cannot be perceived; when painting stops, other thoughts take over again. When performing an art can be maintained to physical exhaustion, it will be found that other thoughts will take over far less easily. Again, you persist in expecting me to articulate this in >some extrememly precise manner.. why can't you accept my vague references, >Dan? I am almost to the point of giving up writing here, when my every word >is analysed to this extent. Its not just you... Bruce, Gene, and Jan have >chimed in at length.., all basically telling me I am wrong. I'm sorry, >guys..I just don't have time to go over and re-explain everything I say to >this extent. I do enjoy reading what you all write..perhaps its better I >don't comment at all if I can't do it well. > >Sadly, >Glo Don't take everything so serious... There are no "rights" and "wrongs". If one's mind is functioning differently, it has to be dealt with differently too. So just keep commenting as you are used to do... >>Glo: I am also not very inclined >>>to be analytical of experiences afterwards, either...for me its more >>>intuitive, feelings, perceptions. I paint pictures or plant flowers or >stare >>>at clouds. Isn't that indicative of accepting the mind for what it is ? An analytical mind is just a crutch; intuition is blindingly fast and easily flies where no logic can go... >>Dan: Yes - there is only opening into "this" -- analysis is >> itself only a cloud of another sort - you can stare into it >> or look away at the blue sky -- either way -- this is >> a perfect moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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