Guest guest Posted October 9, 1999 Report Share Posted October 9, 1999 "Jan Barendrecht" <janb Re: Polarity illusion Gene: Jan, you wrote, and I reply... ...."One of those aphorisms is to compare Maya with a dream. On waking up, the dream isn't real anymore. But in a lucid dream, objects can be manipulated at will. However, Maya never becomes a lucid dream where one can manipulate objects at will; only unconfirmed rumors will mention that possibility." Gene: I must take issue with the following: ...."_No one can provide earth with an extra sun_." Gene: Now Jan... as much as I love your entertaining and usually correct commentary, this time you have gone... too far. I hope you can knowledgeably retract that statement. You are one of the few people on Urth who can know what I mean by this. To continue: You present what seems to be an inarguable weave of representations. Yet, you are using one 'level' to cancel and then again, affirm, another 'level'. Can you freely choose, to arbitrarily assign reality in such a manner, and then later, to cancel, using the same criteria? If so... upon what basis can you possibly criticize, or even reasonably compare? ...."Manifestations arise with a certain set of properties; one is the law of gravity. Nonduality won't change that. Even if one can no longer feel pain, the body still would be wounded, reacting accordingly. " Gene: Gravity is more real than nonduality... who decides what is real... Jan? ...."One's birthright could be called the right to regain the seemingly lost unconditional happiness. " Gene: This is a resonable statement... ...."This happiness is revealed when thoughts, ideas, desires and actions based on "I am the body", "I am the doer", the "I", will no longer arise." Gene: This is an unreasonable statement. You skip from 'A' to 'Z' with no mention of processes 'B~Y'. I suggest to point out, that indeed it is permissible to have memory of 'before' 'during' and 'after'. To see, compare, weigh, understand, and then... to possibly move on, to ~Z. It is unreasonable to state that remembering or knowing, disqualifies from ~Z. It is permissible to have it all! ...."Phantasies about supernatural side-effects of this realization is a side-effect of not yet having realized this simple truth." Gene: You seem to be burning 'our' bridges, before we come to them... why? ...." So instead of thinking about unity, love, harmony etc., with associated phantasies of petting lions, tigers and leopards and creating black holes, the ideas/feelings/thoughts of separateness, hate, disharmony etc. will no longer arise because the "I" no longer arises and that is what constitutes Peace beyond understanding." ...."Jan " Gene: Again, you cut out the middle, as though it does not actually exist. Surely, you must 'know' just 'how' 'attraction' actually works, Jan. It is the answer to the riddle of why, when we put things together that do not belong together, they fly apart, but when we try to pry other things apart, they fly back together. No amount of convincing... will change the actual 'properties'. Thus, in that 'ultimate relationship', meaning is also certain. How does 'biological' organism stay 'together'... and what does this have to do with a 2nd sun... and black holes??? Please rethink your conclusions! I suggest to allow all levels to be discrete at least in mind, perhaps labled to be so. One level does not disqulify another level, without itself ceasing to exist... which itself precludes any anihillation. Thus all levels are indeed discrete; we may access them thus. Any dismissal... is by certain criteria, deemed real by someone, yes??? Perhaps a more moderate, or more radical, approach may be tried... Let me know... ==Gene Poole== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 1999 Report Share Posted October 9, 1999 On 10/9/99 at 9:10 AM magus wrote: >magus (==Gene Poole==) > >"Jan Barendrecht" <janb >Re: Polarity illusion > >Gene: Jan, you wrote, and I reply... > > >..."One of those aphorisms is to compare Maya with a dream. On >waking up, the dream isn't real anymore. But in a lucid dream, >objects can be manipulated at will. However, Maya never >becomes a lucid dream where one can manipulate objects at >will; only unconfirmed rumors will mention that possibility." > >Gene: I must take issue with the following: > >..."_No one can provide earth with an extra sun_." > >Gene: Now Jan... as much as I love your entertaining and usually correct >commentary, this time you have gone... too far. > >I hope you can knowledgeably retract that statement. > >You are one of the few people on Urth who can know what I mean by this. Biological life as we know it is highly dependent on sleep; a few quotes from an editorial (Zzzzzzzz We have to do it every night but nobody knows why) in New Scientist: "If totally deprived of sleep, animals don't just become a little confused about remembering their way through a maze, they actually die - and almost as quickly as if deprived of food (New Scientist supplement, 26 April 1997)." "Perhaps all we can really be certain of is that although the amount and type of sleep is in some way related to lifestyle, no higher animal can survive without at least some sleep. Which suggests that the roots of sleep run very deep. Indeed, all animals go through cycles of activity and rest, even the humble amoeba." The major synchronizer for cycles of activity and rest is the spinning earth, giving the cycle of day and night. Introducing a second sun would disrupt this cycle, causing death; who could do that? From the perspective of interdependent arising, there can't be an earth with two suns as biological life requires a cycle of light and darkness. >To continue: You present what seems to be an inarguable weave of >representations. Yet, you are using one 'level' to cancel and then again, >affirm, another 'level'. Can you freely choose, to arbitrarily assign >reality in such a manner, and then later, to cancel, using the same >criteria? If so... upon what basis can you possibly criticize, or even >reasonably compare? One might ask if the conditions required for biological life as known, specifically, "higher" animals, are arguable. >..."Manifestations arise with a certain set of properties; one is >the law of gravity. Nonduality won't change that. Even if one >can no longer feel pain, the body still would be wounded, >reacting accordingly. " > >Gene: Gravity is more real than nonduality... who decides what is real... Jan? Gravity is comparable to sleep in the sense that both are required for biological life. So your question could be rephrased as "does biological life require nonduality, does nonduality require biological life or is the question not applying?" > >..."One's birthright could be called the right to regain the >seemingly lost unconditional happiness. " > >Gene: This is a resonable statement... It isn't when one considers the agonies of a "factory born" pig, destined for the slaughterhouse. Regarding intelligence, a pig is comparable to a dog and can be held as a pet. > >..."This happiness is >revealed when thoughts, ideas, desires and actions based on "I >am the body", "I am the doer", the "I", will no longer arise." > >Gene: This is an unreasonable statement. You skip from 'A' to 'Z' with no >mention of processes 'B~Y'. OK. Where is the "I" in dreamless sleep? Are you happy or unhappy when waking up from it? Where is the "I" when absorbed in performing arts or an unusual sunset? It is quite possible to get the "taste" from 'Z'. And to my knowledge, what you are labeling as 'Z', still isn't the "end"; it could be called "far enough". > >I suggest to point out, that indeed it is permissible to have memory of >'before' 'during' and 'after'. To see, compare, weigh, understand, and >then... to possibly move on, to ~Z. It is unreasonable to state that >remembering or knowing, disqualifies from ~Z. It is permissible to have it >all! This would imply the memory of "before" is seen unchanged from the perspective of "after" and is unlikely; the facts will remain but not the former impressions, associated with the facts. In a state of weightlessness, the feeling of gravity is forgotten almost immediately whereas behavioral adaptation to the consequences isn't. >..."Phantasies about supernatural side-effects of this >realization is a side-effect of not yet having realized this >simple truth." > >Gene: You seem to be burning 'our' bridges, before we come to them... why? The dictionary gives for fantasy: 1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See synonyms at IMAGINATION. 2. Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy. 3. A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit. 4. a. Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements. b. An example of such fiction. 5. An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need. 6. Music.See FANTASIA. 7. A coin issued especially by a questionable authority and not intended for use as currency. 8. Obsolete. A hallucination. So I could return the question: Who would like to cross bridges on 4. or 5.? Doesn't the SF channel deliver enough enjoyable fantasy? >..." So instead of thinking about unity, love, >harmony etc., with associated phantasies of petting lions, >tigers and leopards and creating black holes, the >ideas/feelings/thoughts of separateness, hate, disharmony etc. >will no longer arise because the "I" no longer arises and that >is what constitutes Peace beyond understanding." > >..."Jan " > >Gene: Again, you cut out the middle, as though it does not actually exist. Who would want to separate things in "lower, middle and higher"? > >Surely, you must 'know' just 'how' 'attraction' actually works, Jan. It is >the answer to the riddle of why, when we put things together that do not >belong together, they fly apart, but when we try to pry other things apart, >they fly back together. Attraction and repulsion, one of the pairs of opposites. Gravity doesn't have an opposite; matter can only attract matter, but other forces (electrical, magnetic) can provide both an attractive and a repulsive force. > >No amount of convincing... will change the actual 'properties'. Thus, in >that 'ultimate relationship', meaning is also certain. >How does 'biological' organism stay 'together'... and what does this have >to do with a 2nd sun... and black holes??? Please rethink your >conclusions! A biological organism is changing continuously. It is fitted with an incomplete auto-repair function. Biological organisms have a cycle of rest and activity, determined by a planetary rotation that will enable a cycle of light and darkness, which is impossible in the presence of a second sun. Depending on size, a sun can develop into a black hole. >I suggest to allow all levels to be discrete at least in mind, perhaps >labled to be so. >One level does not disqulify another level, without itself ceasing to >exist... which itself precludes any anihillation. Thus all levels are >indeed discrete; we may access them thus. The levels do not exist apart from their perceiver. On a stair with two steps it is always possible to add more steps. >Any dismissal... is by certain criteria, deemed real by someone, yes??? > >Perhaps a more moderate, or more radical, approach may be tried... There are as many approaches as there are bodies. The analogy is the ride with a train; one can relax and sleep, or look through the window and wonder if the rusty bridges won't collapse, the engine and the breaks won't fail or robbers will raid the train. One has to pay attention when starting the journey and when leaving the train. Beginning the ride means the certainty of arriving at the destiny. When the train is moving, some are enjoying the sights, some are scared by the sights, some will relax and rest etc. > >Let me know... > >==Gene Poole== > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 Hi Jan, >Biological life as we know it is highly dependent on sleep; a >few quotes from an editorial (Zzzzzzzz We have to do it every >night but nobody knows why) in New Scientist: > >"If totally deprived of sleep, animals don't just become a >little confused about remembering their way through a maze, >they actually die - and almost as quickly as if deprived of >food (New Scientist supplement, 26 April 1997)." > >"Perhaps all we can really be certain of is that although the >amount and type of sleep is in some way related to lifestyle, >no higher animal can survive without at least some sleep. >Which suggests that the roots of sleep run very deep. Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to scientists at the Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There have been reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I think I first read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV special, two scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who don't sleep. They were ordinary people, as far as I know... nothing was said about meditation or yoga. One was a British taxi driver, and one was an older woman who wasn't working. Someone asked her what she found to do with all that time, and she said, "Oh my, I always have more to do than I have time for." I gathered she spent part of the night knitting or crocheting. Actually, the taxi driver said he did need 15 minutes of sleep. In the war he was in jungle patrol, at the head of a unit (platoon?). And he just stayed out in the jungle for long stretches of time... he couldn't see the point in going all the way back to base for 15 minutes of sleep. So a new shift would arrive, and he'd send the old one back to sleep... and just stay on. He said he could manage 15 minutes of sleep in the jungle. Also, I've read about a psychic who doesn't sleep much... a few hours every few days, I think. (When I get my books out, I'll find his name.) He says he thinks most people review the day during their sleep and think ahead toward the next day... but he does that while he's awake. Every night he takes a couple of hours to review his entire day and see what he thinks he did right and where he made a mistake, what he could improve on... and then plans for the next day. The scientists from Maimonides concluded that if some people don't sleep and are perfectly healthy, then human beings do not need to sleep. So their only answer to why we sleep is: because we think we need to. They said it was probably a survival mechanism for early man... to be asleep in a cave at night while large predators were prowling around outside in the dark. I don't know why you've based so much here on the human need for sleep, but it's a poor example... it just ain't so. >The major synchronizer for cycles of activity and rest is the >spinning earth, giving the cycle of day and night. Introducing >a second sun would disrupt this cycle, causing death; who >could do that? From the perspective of interdependent arising, >there can't be an earth with two suns as biological life >requires a cycle of light and darkness. Of course, we're adapted to this planet and this solar system... but does that mean we couldn't adapt to other circumstances? I guess you don't read science fiction... there's been plenty of speculation about humans living elsewhere under different circumstances. Certainly not everyone thinks it's impossible. I hope you haven't ruled out "creative imagination" entirely... it's a major tool. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 In a message dated 10/10/99 6:56:54 AM, janb writes: >Wrong conclusion. At a certain moment, Alzheimer patients will >forget even to eat. So it is likely at least some would forget >to sleep as well. Apart from that, these patients don't have a >short term memory so if any people would be free from the need >of sleep, these Alzheimer patients would be the first >candidates as their bodies don't need to recuperate from >physical labor either. That would make much more than just two >or three not needing sleep, wouldn't it ? Elephants are >almost free from predators and need sleep nevertheless. > hi jan & all, thanks, as always for your insight. i'm interested in the subject of alzheimers and sleep from observing my mom in late stages of dementia. she *did* forget to sleep. sometimes she would stay awake (and runnin' up and down the stairs) for up to 36 hours. at this point, she would sleep, sometimes for four days-- waking only to be fed and washed up. point being, her body did eventually dictate rest (for me too!, even when she didn't "know" it. forgetting to eat was a different story. i fed her until she forgot how to swallow-- and as you mentioned before, that is not something the body remembers to do when it is food deprived. at that point, as you mentioned, in holland, and also the united states the option of a feeding tube or allowing a person to die presents itself. (side note: a living will/medical directive is a wonderful gift to those who may care for you, and have to make decisions such as this. my folks had specified pallitive care only and no feeding tube-- for which i'm grateful. that's a decision that i would have had trouble with ) just read a study on sleep apnea patients. they have periods of cessation of breathing, and are therefore sleep deprived. interesting study, as it likens lack of sleep to being intoxicated by measuring reaction time. i'll include the text of the study in this post. i too have read of the "sleepless saint" in yogananda's autobiography and of others-- guruji in california slept about two hours each nite-- but was in samadhi state many hours a day, that i witnessed. i certainly will not rule out miracles and mystery. also, there can be a point where it is difficult/ impossible to discern between waking and sleeping state for oneself as one realizes. ..not that i'd operate a motor vehicle when feeling this way. thanks jan, harsha and everyone for this cool list! love and blessings, aleks NEW ORLEANS (AP) - Not sleeping enough can give you the same results as drinking too much. That's the conclusion of a Stanford University study of people with mild to moderate sleep apnea: people whose breathing stops several or even dozens of times an hour, interrupting their rest without their knowledge. About 12 million Americans have the problem but fewer than 2 million of them have been diagnosed, according to the American Sleep Apnea Association's Web site. The undiagnosed figure may be as high as 25 million, according to Stanford's Sleep Disorders Clinic and Research Center. People known to have apnea did as poorly on a test of reaction time as people who were too drunk to drive a bus or truck in California, said Dr. Nelson B. Powell of the Stanford center. On three of seven measurements, they did worse than people too drunk to drive at all in California and other states where the legal test is a blood alcohol content of .08 percent. Powell presented his study Sunday at the annual convention American Academy of Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery Foundation, Inc. He said he wanted to underscore the dangers of driving while sleepy, whether or not it's because of apnea. ``How many times have you or anybody you've known been nodding off at the wheel, or said, `Gee, I've got to roll the window down or turn the music louder'?'' he said. ``I'd bet every driver, at one time or another has driven too tired. We know it's wrong but we still do it.'' This study gives a comparison that people can understand, he said. ``This is a wonderful study,'' said Dr. Regina Walker, an associate professor of otolaryngology at Loyola University in Chicago. ``It is an extremely well-thought-out, well-controlled, prospective study that is looking at something I think is of great significance.'' The study looked at 80 volunteers and 113 people with apnea. The volunteers' average age was 29 and 56 percent were women. In contrast, 81 percent of the apnea patients were men, and their average age was 47. However, statistical analysis ruled out age and gender as reasons for the difference, Powell said. He said the full analysis will be published next month in a national peer-reviewed journal. All of the people took a 10-minute test of reaction speed, pushing a button to turn off a randomly set light. After four tests to get their baseline reaction time, the comparison group started drinking 80-proof alcohol. They were tested three more times as they kept drinking. Their blood alcohol count averaged .05 percent at the first re-test, .08 percent at the second and .083 at the third. It's illegal in California and several other states for anyone with a blood-alcohol content of more than .04 percent to drive a bus or truck, and ..08 is considered legal proof of driving drunk in 16 states. In addition to simple reaction times, analysts looked at six mathematical permutations, such as the means of the 10 fastest and of the 10 slowest times. The apnea patients, whose breath stopped about 29 times an hour while they wer e asleep, did worse on all seven measurements than the drinkers did on their first re-test, and worse on three of them than those who were legally drunk. ``Many of my patients don't think being sleepy is a big deal,'' Walker said. ``I think this will help legislators and the public understand just how serious the problem is. ``Also that it's not controllable,'' she added. ``People think, `I can just make myself stay awake.' They can't.'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 On 10/10/99 at 12:19 AM Dharma wrote: > >Hi Jan, [...] >Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to scientists at the >Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There have been >reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I think I first >read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV special, two >scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who don't sleep. On an amount of 6 billion? To be sure, why don't you try it yourself - that would make 3 out of 6 billion. There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other animals as well. > >They were ordinary people, as far as I know... nothing was said about >meditation or yoga. One was a British taxi driver, and one was an older >woman who wasn't working. Someone asked her what she found to do with all >that time, and she said, "Oh my, I always have more to do than I have time >for." I gathered she spent part of the night knitting or crocheting. Knitting is one of those activities allowing for periods of microsleep. So the example isn't conclusive. > >Actually, the taxi driver said he did need 15 minutes of sleep. In the war >he was in jungle patrol, at the head of a unit (platoon?). And he just >stayed out in the jungle for long stretches of time... he couldn't see the >point in going all the way back to base for 15 minutes of sleep. So a new >shift would arrive, and he'd send the old one back to sleep... and just >stay on. He said he could manage 15 minutes of sleep in the jungle. That sounds very convincing. Ever heard of microsleep? A form of sleep one isn't conscious of as activities seemingly continue; lorry drivers do it often and I've some experience of it, being used to 24 hours of continuous driving to and from holiday destinations On guard in the jungle offers this possibility for microsleep too. > >Also, I've read about a psychic who doesn't sleep much... a few hours >every few days, I think. (When I get my books out, I'll find his name.) >He says he thinks most people review the day during their sleep and think >ahead toward the next day... but he does that while he's awake. Every >night he takes a couple of hours to review his entire day and see what he >thinks he did right and where he made a mistake, what he could improve >on... and then plans for the next day. The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a function during the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or scientists. > >The scientists from Maimonides concluded that if some people don't sleep >and are perfectly healthy, then human beings do not need to sleep. So >their only answer to why we sleep is: because we think we need to. They >said it was probably a survival mechanism for early man... to be asleep in >a cave at night while large predators were prowling around outside in the >dark. Wrong conclusion. At a certain moment, Alzheimer patients will forget even to eat. So it is likely at least some would forget to sleep as well. Apart from that, these patients don't have a short term memory so if any people would be free from the need of sleep, these Alzheimer patients would be the first candidates as their bodies don't need to recuperate from physical labor either. That would make much more than just two or three not needing sleep, wouldn't it ? Elephants are almost free from predators and need sleep nevertheless. >I don't know why you've based so much here on the human need for sleep, but >it's a poor example... it just ain't so. You haven't exactly provided evidence suggesting no need for sleep. Quite the contrary: You didn't provide any case of a "higher" animal doing without sleep, just a few humans likely to enjoy a series of microsleep. Deluded elephants (particularly in a zoo) thinking they need sleep whereas they don't ? Ha... thanks for the laugh. >>The major synchronizer for cycles of activity and rest is the >>spinning earth, giving the cycle of day and night. Introducing >>a second sun would disrupt this cycle, causing death; who >>could do that? From the perspective of interdependent arising, >>there can't be an earth with two suns as biological life >>requires a cycle of light and darkness. > >Of course, we're adapted to this planet and this solar system... but does >that mean we couldn't adapt to other circumstances? I guess you don't read >science fiction... there's been plenty of speculation about humans living >elsewhere under different circumstances. Certainly not everyone thinks >it's impossible. "Adapting to circumstances" is a bit different from "originating under different circumstances". SF isn't that spectacular; merely an interpretation of the siddhis as mentioned in Patanjali (III, 45), commented with: "The chief powers are eight: (1) the power to take the smallest form, (2) the power to take the biggest form, (3) the power to take the lightest form, (4) the power to touch anything, (5) the power to control anything, (6) the power to create anything, (7) the power to penetrate anything, (8) the power to bring about anything. The minor powers are innumerable." >I hope you haven't ruled out "creative imagination" entirely... it's a >major tool. > >Love, >Dharma Considering the eight chief powers, who could want "more" ? How about writing a script for the origination of life forms, thriving at -273° C ? Now that would be MOST original... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 Hi Jan, >[...] >>Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to >scientists at the >>Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There >have been >>reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I >think I first >>read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV >special, two >>scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who >don't sleep. > >On an amount of 6 billion? What difference does that make? If there's one exception to a rule, then it isn't the rule. > To be sure, why don't you try it >yourself After some years of meditation, I did need less sleep. It wasn't until my husband and I separated that I was able to really find out just what was "normal" for me... and I found that I sleep about three hours a night. If I'm under heavy stress or sick, I need more... in fact, in a serious illness I just go to sleep until I get over it... with short waking periods for eating and going to the bathroom. Always have done that... it's not something I consciously decide to do. Since I've had active K., my sleep time varies more... sometimes more, sometimes less. And the edges are blurring... no sudden waking any more, just moving from one state to another. I often try to "save" something before I open my eyes and get up... and then remember that I can't get it into my computer! )) I used to save it in my brain's memory banks under a subject line for easy retrieval... but then I never could remember the subject lines. )) I think I probably could do without those three hours... but I enjoy it! )) Also, it's sometimes useful for discovering something more or getting a message... if I'm having a hard time getting something my guru is trying to tell me, it sometimes comes in highly symbolic form during sleep. >There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. >Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other >animals as well. Deprivation is different than just not needing it... I don't deprive myself of sleep... I just don't need much. >>They were ordinary people, as far as I know... nothing was >said about >>meditation or yoga. One was a British taxi driver, and one >was an older >>woman who wasn't working. Someone asked her what she found >to do with all >>that time, and she said, "Oh my, I always have more to do >than I have time >>for." I gathered she spent part of the night knitting or >crocheting. > >Knitting is one of those activities allowing for periods of >microsleep. So the example isn't conclusive. Well, now you want to change the definition of sleep. Want to define it in terms of brain waves? I could go into meditation and give you deep sleep brain waves... while I'm fully conscious inside. A friend of mine actually did it for a guy with an EEG machine... he couldn't believe what he was seeing!! )) When I sit down, I relax everything I'm not using. When I lie down with a book, it's as good as a nap... almost everything is completely relaxed. Want to call that sleep? While the book _The Unobstructed Universe_ was being dictated (channeled) by the one who was Betty White before the body's death, after a chapter was finished she would answer questions. Someone asked her if she still slept. She answered that she sometimes needed to replenish energy. If that's sleep, then we will always need it. >snip< >>Also, I've read about a psychic who doesn't sleep much... a >few hours >>every few days, I think. (When I get my books out, I'll find >his name.) >>He says he thinks most people review the day during their >sleep and think >>ahead toward the next day... but he does that while he's >awake. Every >>night he takes a couple of hours to review his entire day and >see what he >>thinks he did right and where he made a mistake, what he >could improve >>on... and then plans for the next day. > >The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a function >during the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. >Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No >wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or >scientists. They aren't depriving themselves either... they're doing whatever they need to do while they're "awake." >>The scientists from Maimonides concluded that if some people >don't sleep >>and are perfectly healthy, then human beings do not need to >sleep. So >>their only answer to why we sleep is: because we think we >need to. They >>said it was probably a survival mechanism for early man... >to be asleep in >>a cave at night while large predators were prowling around >outside in the >>dark. > >Wrong conclusion. At a certain moment, Alzheimer patients will >forget even to eat. Obviously, they weren't talking about conscious intellectual thinking... maybe they should have said, "because your body thinks it needs to sleep" or "Because your subconscious thinks you need to sleep." ) I don't know what the exact mechanism is... it's been going on for a very long time... maybe we're talking about racial memory... If you are willing to misunderstand so easily, you can find that anything at all is mistaken and wrong. And you sure do work to maintain your own beliefs... As Mira said, you have to surrender to the possibility that "I don't know" before you can learn anything. When you know everything... or when you are certain that what you do know is right... you are not open to learning anything new and/or different. >Deluded elephants >(particularly in a zoo) thinking they need sleep whereas they >don't ? Ha... thanks for the laugh. There you go again... stretch it to something ludicrous and then laugh it away. Did you know the Christian bishops voted out reincarnation? Of course, their vote didn't really affect what is happening in the world... and neither does your laughter. >>>The major synchronizer for cycles of activity and rest is >the >>>spinning earth, giving the cycle of day and night. >Introducing >>>a second sun would disrupt this cycle, causing death; who >>>could do that? From the perspective of interdependent >arising, >>>there can't be an earth with two suns as biological life >>>requires a cycle of light and darkness. >> >>Of course, we're adapted to this planet and this solar >system... but does >>that mean we couldn't adapt to other circumstances? I guess >you don't read >>science fiction... there's been plenty of speculation about >humans living >>elsewhere under different circumstances. Certainly not >everyone thinks >>it's impossible. > >"Adapting to circumstances" is a bit different from >"originating under different circumstances". SF isn't that >spectacular; merely an interpretation of the siddhis as >mentioned in Patanjali (III, 45), commented with: "The chief >powers are eight: >(1) the power to take the smallest form, >(2) the power to take the biggest form, >(3) the power to take the lightest form, >(4) the power to touch anything, >(5) the power to control anything, >(6) the power to create anything, >(7) the power to penetrate anything, >(8) the power to bring about anything. >The minor powers are innumerable." As I said, apparently you don't read SF. >>I hope you haven't ruled out "creative imagination" >entirely... it's a >>major tool. > >Considering the eight chief powers, who could want "more" ? I said "a tool." How do you think anyone gets those powers? Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 On 10/10/99 at 1:59 PM Dharma wrote: >Dharma <fisher1 > >Hi Jan, > >>[...] >>>Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to >>scientists at the >>>Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There >>have been >>>reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I >>think I first >>>read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV >>special, two >>>scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who >>don't sleep. >> >>On an amount of 6 billion? > >What difference does that make? If there's one exception to a rule, then >it isn't the rule. Exceptions are just exceptions. They don't prove anything, only make up the content of the Guiness book of records. So unless there are elephants needing no sleep, nothing is proven. Elephants need little sleep, contrary to big cats like lions needing much sleep. So it isn't an unreasonable request. > >> To be sure, why don't you try it >>yourself > >After some years of meditation, I did need less sleep. It wasn't until my >husband and I separated that I was able to really find out just what was >"normal" for me... and I found that I sleep about three hours a night. If >I'm under heavy stress or sick, I need more... in fact, in a serious >illness I just go to sleep until I get over it... with short waking >periods for eating and going to the bathroom. Always have done that... >it's not something I consciously decide to do. > >Since I've had active K., my sleep time varies more... sometimes more, >sometimes less. And the edges are blurring... no sudden waking any more, >just moving from one state to another. I often try to "save" something >before I open my eyes and get up... and then remember that I can't get it >into my computer! )) I used to save it in my brain's memory banks under >a subject line for easy retrieval... but then I never could remember the >subject lines. )) That is something familiar. Probably everyone with active K. has (had) such a period of needing very little sleep. I've had that phase as well, sleep being no longer than three hours. >I think I probably could do without those three hours... but I enjoy it! >)) Also, it's sometimes useful for discovering something more or getting >a message... if I'm having a hard time getting something my guru is trying >to tell me, it sometimes comes in highly symbolic form during sleep. > >>There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. >>Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other >>animals as well. > >Deprivation is different than just not needing it... I don't deprive >myself of sleep... I just don't need much. The deprivation served as a tool to find out which functions would be impaired as a result of the deprivation. Quoting: "I used to say that sleep was just a preferred time for learning" says Stickgold, "but now I'd say that certain parts of learning can't happen without sleep". > [...] >> >>Knitting is one of those activities allowing for periods of >>microsleep. So the example isn't conclusive. > >Well, now you want to change the definition of sleep. Want to define it in >terms of brain waves? I could go into meditation and give you deep sleep >brain waves... while I'm fully conscious inside. A friend of mine >actually did it for a guy with an EEG machine... he couldn't believe what >he was seeing!! )) Ask your friend to drive a car in a busy city with the deep sleep brain waves "on". That would be convincing. Microsleep is sleep as well; the term is to be understood as a phase like REM and dreamless sleep, only much shorter. >When I sit down, I relax everything I'm not using. When I lie down with a >book, it's as good as a nap... almost everything is completely relaxed. >Want to call that sleep? The "mark" of microsleep is that one isn't aware of it, until one is hit by a consequence, like for instance a crash. >While the book _The Unobstructed Universe_ was being dictated (channeled) >by the one who was Betty White before the body's death, after a chapter was >finished she would answer questions. Someone asked her if she still slept. >She answered that she sometimes needed to replenish energy. If that's >sleep, then we will always need it. Anyone with active K. can know that energy always is plentiful. So the need of sleep has nothing to do with energy. Physical recovery can happen without sleep. When living in Belgium, often I stayed awake till 4 AM and went on a 15 miles jogging, went to work and repeated the jogging 12 hours later. Dozing off while listening to commentaries on the news (those commentaries are the best sleep inducing tools ever invented) for a few hours and repeating the procedure. Nothing special at all. [....] >>The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a function >>during the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. >>Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No >>wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or >>scientists. > >They aren't depriving themselves either... they're doing whatever they >need to do while they're "awake." The point is, this transfer from short term memory to long term memory will not happen without sleep. This transfer is ESSENTIAL to learning. [...] >>Deluded elephants >>(particularly in a zoo) thinking they need sleep whereas they >>don't ? Ha... thanks for the laugh. > >There you go again... stretch it to something ludicrous and then laugh it >away. Did you know the Christian bishops voted out reincarnation? Of >course, their vote didn't really affect what is happening in the world... >and neither does your laughter. Why should there be a difference between the need for sleep in humans and elephants? You deny the proven fact that learning requires sleep. Learning goes on continuously, even a habitual ride through the city will add something. Skills have to be honed to prevent forgetting; this daily honing is a learning process not just for humas. [...] >>Considering the eight chief powers, who could want "more" ? > >I said "a tool." How do you think anyone gets those powers? That can't be a secret for anyone with active K. And you're right, the powers aren't tools but toys >Love, >Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 Hi Jan, >>>special, two >>>>scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people >who >>>don't sleep. >>> >>>On an amount of 6 billion? >> >>What difference does that make? If there's one exception to >a rule, then >>it isn't the rule. > >Exceptions are just exceptions. They don't prove anything, Only if logic is meaningful to you. In an intellectual discussion of physical-world matters, people normally assume the rules of logic are meaningful. But if you are willing to slip around from one type of thought to another... and throw in non-physical matters... a discussion becomes not much more than who can outfox the other... out-stun him with a dramatic switch to something entirely different and irrelevant that appears to be meaningful in some way but simply cuts across the way he was thinking. If he's being intellectual, hit him with emotional stuff... if he's making an emotional appeal, smack him with cold, clear logic... I can play that game, but I'm not interested. >>> To be sure, why don't you try it >>>yourself >> >>After some years of meditation, I did need less sleep. It >wasn't until my >>husband and I separated that I was able to really find out >just what was >>"normal" for me... and I found that I sleep about three >hours a night. -snip- > >That is something familiar. Probably everyone with active K. >has (had) such a period of needing very little sleep. I've had >that phase as well, sleep being no longer than three hours. This period or phase has lasted a very long time. My husband moved out in 1974... that was when I found that three hours of sleep was my norm. As for K., mine was activated a few years ago... no apparent relationship. >>>There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. >>>Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other >>>animals as well. >> >>Deprivation is different than just not needing it... I don't >deprive >>myself of sleep... I just don't need much. > >The deprivation served as a tool to find out which functions >would be impaired as a result of the deprivation. Quoting: "I >used to say that sleep was just a preferred time for learning" >says Stickgold, "but now I'd say that certain parts of >learning can't happen without sleep". You wrote this in another letter: >but the article I read was emphasizing the >relation between sleep and learning, also suggesting that >skills have to be honed on a daily basis, which is a learning >process, not only for humans. Apparently what you are saying comes from one article; the author and his background would be relevant. >>>Knitting is one of those activities allowing for periods of >>>microsleep. So the example isn't conclusive. >> >>Well, now you want to change the definition of sleep. Want >to define it in >>terms of brain waves? I could go into meditation and give >you deep sleep >>brain waves... while I'm fully conscious inside. A friend >of mine >>actually did it for a guy with an EEG machine... he couldn't >believe what >>he was seeing!! )) > >Ask your friend to drive a car in a busy city with the deep >sleep brain waves "on". Irrelevant... it does not follow from what I said. >That would be convincing. Microsleep >is sleep as well; the term is to be understood as a phase like >REM and dreamless sleep, only much shorter. > >>When I sit down, I relax everything I'm not using. When I >lie down with a >>book, it's as good as a nap... almost everything is >completely relaxed. >>Want to call that sleep? > >The "mark" of microsleep is that one isn't aware of it, until >one is hit by a consequence, like for instance a crash. I know that a person can be apparently awake and yet briefly produce sleep brain waves... According to the book _Body Time_, the human sleep cycle is approximately 90 minutes. I tested that and found it to be so... about every 90 minutes, if I don't go to sleep, I find myself staring into space, maybe fantasizing, maybe doing nothing at all. At those moments, people sometimes show sleep brain waves. I think we have to define sleep either in terms of brain waves or in terms of our subjective experience... which isn't always the same thing. Not only because that "microsleep" moment may be too short for most people to be aware of it... but also because various people may not have the same subjective experience while producing the same type of brain waves. When I teach meditation, I state that I'm teaching people to put their physical bodies to sleep while they stay fully conscious. Then we also put the emotional body and the intellectual body to sleep... if you stay fully conscious then, you're at least on the intuitive level. I teach the physical relaxation method that I learned from my modern dance teacher in college... I had another one, but I liked hers better. She said that 15 minutes of that complete physical relaxation is equivalent to three hours of sleep. >>While the book _The Unobstructed Universe_ was being dictated >(channeled) >>by the one who was Betty White before the body's death, after >a chapter was >>finished she would answer questions. Someone asked her if >she still slept. >>She answered that she sometimes needed to replenish energy. >If that's >>sleep, then we will always need it. > >Anyone with active K. can know that energy always is >plentiful. So the need of sleep has nothing to do with energy. I think that's probably going too far. I think the reason I sleep round the clock during a severe illness is that I just devote all my energy to fighting the disease... I don't use energy for anything else except basic maintenance. (People with CFS/ME and related diseases, that doesn't apply! I was amazed to find I couldn't sleep off CFS. Turns out it's, for one thing, a disease of immune _activation_ ... the immune system is already turned on all the time, as if fighting a non-existent flu. And it's the products of the immune system that make us feel so sick when we're fighting flu.) >>>The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a >function >>>during the transfer of short term memory to long term >memory. >>>Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No >>>wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or >>>scientists. >> >>They aren't depriving themselves either... they're doing >whatever they >>need to do while they're "awake." > >The point is, this transfer from short term memory to long >term memory will not happen without sleep. This transfer is >ESSENTIAL to learning. This is apparently what you read in that one article. >Why should there be a difference between the need for sleep in >humans and elephants? Well, there's a silly question if I ever saw one. )) Is it an elephant joke? >You deny the proven fact that learning >requires sleep. I didn't deny it. And it is not a proven fact, as far as I know. Your one article again... >Learning goes on continuously, even a habitual >ride through the city will add something. Skills have to be >honed to prevent forgetting; this daily honing is a learning >process not just for humas. More from the one article... >>>Considering the eight chief powers, who could want "more" >? >> >>I said "a tool." How do you think anyone gets those powers? > >That can't be a secret for anyone with active K. Well, that's gotta be a surprise for a lot of K-people... who are probably going to be writing you wanting to know why they don't know this "open secret" that all K-people apparently know. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 Hi Aleks, >i'm interested in the subject of >alzheimers and sleep from observing my mom in late stages of dementia. she >*did* forget to sleep. >sometimes she would stay awake (and runnin' up and down the stairs) for up to >36 hours. at this point, she would sleep, sometimes for four days-- waking >only to be fed and washed up. point being, her body did eventually dictate >rest (for me too!, even when she didn't "know" it. That's very interesting... it explains to me some thing from my mom's last years. She didn't have Alzheimer's, but she had strokes... big ones, tiny ones... she had a remarkable immune system and recovery time, but they kept on... so I saw all sorts of different symptoms. > forgetting to eat was >a different story. i fed her until she forgot how to swallow-- and as you >mentioned before, that is not something the body remembers to do when it is >food deprived. at that point, as you mentioned, in holland, and also the >united states the option of a feeding tube or allowing a person to die >presents itself. > >(side note: a living will/medical directive is a wonderful gift to those who >may care for you, and have to make decisions such as this. my folks had >specified pallitive care only and no feeding tube-- for which i'm grateful. >that's a decision that i would have had trouble with ) Yes, that's very important. Mom had a living will and she made sure a number of people had copies. When the last stroke left her unable to eat or swallow liquids, my brother and I were able to tell the doctor that she always said she didn't want to be kept alive with tubes and needles. He knew her too, and he agreed. He did say to give her oxygen, but she didn't want it... she pushed it away repeatedly. She had been saying for some time that she was ready to go... she was 92 when she went. >just read a study on sleep apnea patients. they have periods of cessation of >breathing, and are therefore sleep deprived. interesting study, as it likens >lack of sleep to being intoxicated by measuring reaction time. i'll include >the text of the study in this post. Very interesting. In college I once stayed awake for two nights by taking NoDoze (caffeine pills)... I thought I had to do it to be ready for exams all that week. On the third day I was sitting at a table reading a book, and the book (which was resting on the table) started to slowly spin to the right. I turned my head to follow the print and almost fell off the chair. ) That happened a few times, and then I felt I was about to burst into tears. So then I knew I couldn't take an exam that day... and I had to go to the hospital for a medical excuse from the exam. On the way there, I tried to walk a straight line along the brick paving, and I couldn't do it! I was staggering along Chapel Walk. )) I got to the hospital and a nurse asked, "What's the matter with you?" I announced, "I'm drunk! On NoDoze..." and I started to laugh... and couldn't stop! She put me to bed, and I was still laughing. I went into the bathroom and sat down... fell forward and banged my head into the wall... and that was the funniest thing yet! )))) Finally they gave me sleeping pills so the girl in the other bed could sleep. >i too have read of the "sleepless saint" >in yogananda's autobiography and of others-- guruji in california slept about >two hours each nite-- but was in samadhi state many hours a day, that i >witnessed. i certainly will not rule out miracles and mystery. also, >there can be a point where it is difficult/ impossible to discern between >waking and sleeping state for oneself as one realizes. ..not that i'd operate >a motor vehicle when feeling this way. No, if I'm feeling sleepy, I pull off the road and take a nap. I've had a cop knock on the window to make sure I was all right... but they'd rather see you taking a nap than driving when you shouldn't. If you can pull off near a toll-booth, it's a pretty safe place to sleep... there are usually some truckers pulled off there and sleeping too. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 In a message dated 10/11/1999 4:49:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fisher1 writes: << Then we also put the emotional body and the intellectual body to sleep... if you stay fully conscious then, you're at least on the intuitive level. >> I agree with you, that the rules change, but I think they mean it in fun. Although, I found last night that if one throws 600 foot images at you, for me at least, who is very visual, ones intuition gets thrown for a bit. Add a bit of exhaustion from dealing with one's child who's in pain and there it goes:::::::::::> *g* Love and Light, Annette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 Dharma: > In an intellectual discussion of > physical-world matters, people normally assume the rules of logic are > meaningful. But if you are willing to slip around from one type of thought > to another... and throw in non-physical matters... a discussion becomes > not much more than who can outfox the other... out-stun him with a > dramatic switch to something entirely different and irrelevant that appears > to be meaningful in some way but simply cuts across the way he was > thinking. If he's being intellectual, hit him with emotional stuff... if > he's making an emotional appeal, smack him with cold, clear logic... I can > play that game, but I'm not interested. Thank you Dharma. I see that that's what we do very often on these lists. Trying to show the other that we do understand it better. Thank you for putting it in such clear words. With love, Mira *Mirror* http://welcome.to/mirror Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 On 10/10/99 at 12:19 AM Dharma wrote: > >Hi Jan, [...] >Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to scientists at the >Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There have been reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I think I first read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV special, two scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who don't sleep. On 10/10/99 at 2:56:53 PM janb (Jan Barendrecht) replied: On an amount of 6 billion? To be sure, why don't you try it yourself - that would make 3 out of 6 billion. There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other animals as well. Went 2 weeks without sleep during a recent spiritual experience. This was involuntary. Wasn't tired at all, but sure was "jumpy." Don't care to go that long without sleep again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 On 10/11/99 at 3:02 AM Dharma wrote: [...] > >Apparently what you are saying comes from one article; the author and his >background would be relevant. The article was "Perchance to learn" by Helen Philips - no background provided. The recommendation for further reading is probably more relevant: "Sleep: offline memory reprocessing" by Robert Stickgold, Trends in Cognitive Sciences, vol 2, p484 (1998) Regarding reaction time and REM sleep, material from the Weizmann Institute in Rehovot, Israel, by Avi Karni was used (no mention of articles) [..] >>Anyone with active K. can know that energy always is >>plentiful. So the need of sleep has nothing to do with energy. > >I think that's probably going too far. I think the reason I sleep round >the clock during a severe illness is that I just devote all my energy to >fighting the disease... I don't use energy for anything else except basic >maintenance. > >(People with CFS/ME and related diseases, that doesn't apply! I was amazed >to find I couldn't sleep off CFS. Turns out it's, for one thing, a disease >of immune _activation_ ... the immune system is already turned on all the >time, as if fighting a non-existent flu. And it's the products of the >immune system that make us feel so sick when we're fighting flu.) I am not familiar with personal severe disease, only survived a "diagnosed to die" condition when no trace of skin on the body was left and the surface described as a total 2nd degree burn by the amazed doctors. So they sent me back to die and I recovered within 3 weeks. That was before K. awakening. I became (gradually) "health aware" at age 17 so keeping good health never was a problem; it could mean that "bad" genes, causing dreaded diseases like cancer aren't likely to be turned on by lifestyle. This knowledge was the incentive for making people health-conscious; when the "bad" gene is turned on, it is too late. One grandmother didn't live long enough to benefit from improved treatment of MS and my mother will die like her mother, before there is a cure for Alzheimer disease. One grandfather had a leg amputated thanks to smoking and he died just before the second leg would have to be amputated, whereas the other grandfather died of gluttony (choked in a chicken bone and died of suffocation). My father inherited the vulnerable veins, continued smoking even after a heart attack, could hardly walk over age fifty and died of a cerebral haemorrhage; my brother died young of asthma and a sister has a life of chronic bronchitis. So genetically, my chances for "healthy old age" should be zero. My father at least was honest; he said everything had its price and he was willing to pay for enjoyment with suffering. My observation is, many are sharing his opinion. (The above is just a summary; it could be much longer as disease is default in the family.) [..] >>>>Considering the eight chief powers, who could want "more" >>? >>> >>>I said "a tool." How do you think anyone gets those powers? >> >>That can't be a secret for anyone with active K. > >Well, that's gotta be a surprise for a lot of K-people... who are probably >going to be writing you wanting to know why they don't know this "open >secret" that all K-people apparently know. > >Love, >Dharma The description is in the Patanjali Sutras, although one has to figure out the connection with K. using the commentaries too. On the other hand, what can be more pleasant than such a surprise? It's just a matter of patience; months, years, lifetime(s), who knows? Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 In a message dated 10/10/99 6:14:09 PM, janb writes: >Samadhi can be more refreshing than sleep, something that I >can acknowledge. Also, the boundary between waking and >sleeping; among others it offers the possibility for what >could be called "distant viewing", seeing sceneries and events >rather remote from one's body. I never investigated or >analyzed these possibilities nor the veracity of visions, >merely stumbled over them Being between waking and sleeping >was like being on a razor's edge, having to prevent dozing off >and waking up simultaneously. Also, the sceneries could >seamlessly continue as a dreams > >Jan i am sorry to hear that your mom has alzheimers--peace be with you both. what you say about these states makes sense, that actual needed rest could be occuring. i suppose during "distant viewing" one could imagine a comfy bed with fluffy pillows, too! seriously, do you think "distant viewing" is akin to lucid dreaming? love and blessings, aleks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 1999 Report Share Posted October 11, 1999 On 10/11/99 at 2:00 PM Guitgo wrote: [...] >what you say about these states makes sense, that actual needed rest could be > occuring. i suppose during "distant viewing" one could imagine a comfy bed >with fluffy pillows, too! seriously, do you think "distant viewing" is akin >to lucid dreaming? > >love and blessings, >aleks Distant viewing differs from lucid dreaming in the sense distant viewing could be called disembodied perception. There is no trace of body and the moment one thinks of a location it is viewed. Lucid dreaming starts by becoming aware in a dream, to be dreaming. I stumbled on distant viewing when it still was possible to stop thinking and yet to fall asleep; awareness would slowly dim like a candle getting out of oxygen and at a certain moment, a scenery would pop up and it could be viewed from all sides. So the practice is much simpler than lucid dreaming, only maintaining the intermediary state is much more difficult. This shows another difference with lucid dreaming; in distant viewing, silence remained whereas in lucid dreaming, mind is running at top speed. That was suggestive of the hypothesis that the mind isn't creating the images as in lucid dreaming. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 1999 Report Share Posted October 12, 1999 > >Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to > scientists at the > >Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There > have been > >reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I > think I first > >read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV > special, two > >scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who > don't sleep. > > On an amount of 6 billion? To be sure, why don't you try it > yourself - that would make 3 out of 6 billion. > There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. > Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other > animals as well. I would not make that suggestion, to anyone. Going under water is not a problem, the pain of taking a breath of water, will turn you away from trying it again, until a deep peace is found under water. A peace my "adult" body does not remember anymore how to achieve it. But for sleep it is different, it is relatively easy to stay awake without sleeping for weeks, only the 2 or 3 first days are hard, as the will of staying awake goes. But after a couple of week without sleep, the day you will fall back into a comatose sleep of a few days in a row. It is not funny, then, to wake up and find out that your hand wont follow the order to write your name. That you have to relearn from scratch all that was tough in school from first grade. Their was no indication while not sleeping that the effects would be so strong on all level of the body, after waking up. But strangely enough all the primary functions, like walking, eating, moving, smelling remain all perfectly functional. So i say, why don't you don't try it yourself, or at least do it under supervision, like Sri Aurobindo and Mother did, for one another in those strange and not necessary experience. >From personal experience at 17, from this guy that wanted all this world at once. Antoine > The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a function > during the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. > Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No > wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or > scientists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 1999 Report Share Posted October 12, 1999 Antoine, do you have sources of that comatose sleep story? For 99.99% of the popolution goes that within a few days of deprivation, resisting sleep becomes impossible. Within that time, functioning as usual gets so impaired that no alternative is left but to sleep and I was no exception to this (before K.). Apart from that, a little deprivation has a therapeutical value. So please elaborate on the generalized advice not to experiment, and the comatose sleep (source(s), cases etc.); never heard from it. Jan On 10/12/99 at 3:29 PM Antoine wrote: >Antoine <carrea > >> >Actually, Jan, it isn't necessary to sleep, according to >> scientists at the >> >Sleep Clinic at Maimonides Hospital in New York City. There >> have been >> >reports in the past of a few people who didn't sleep... I >> think I first >> >read about it in Yogananda's autobiography. But on a TV >> special, two >> >scientists from Maimonides said they had found two people who >> don't sleep. >> >> On an amount of 6 billion? To be sure, why don't you try it >> yourself - that would make 3 out of 6 billion. >> There have been several experiments with sleep deprivation. >> Memory will start to fail; not only in humans but other >> animals as well. > >I would not make that suggestion, to anyone. Going under water is not a >problem, the pain of taking a breath of water, will turn you away from >trying it again, until a deep peace is found under water. A peace my >"adult" body does not remember anymore how to achieve it. But for sleep >it is different, it is relatively easy to stay awake without sleeping >for weeks, only the 2 or 3 first days are hard, as the will of staying >awake goes. But after a couple of week without sleep, the day you will >fall back into a comatose sleep of a few days in a row. It is not funny, >then, to wake up and find out that your hand wont follow the order to >write your name. That you have to relearn from scratch all that was >tough in school from first grade. Their was no indication while not >sleeping that the effects would be so strong on all level of the body, >after waking up. But strangely enough all the primary functions, like >walking, eating, moving, smelling remain all perfectly functional. > >So i say, why don't you don't try it yourself, or at least do it under >supervision, like Sri Aurobindo and Mother did, for one another in those >strange and not necessary experience. > >>From personal experience at 17, from this guy that wanted all this world >at once. > >Antoine > >> The phases of sleep do suggest otherwise; sleep has a function >> during the transfer of short term memory to long term memory. >> Sleep deprivation will effectively prevent this transfer. No >> wonder the examples not needing sleep aren't students or >> scientists. > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Get EXPERT CONTENT at ONElist! >Join PROS&PUNDITS. For details go to: ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/prospun1 ">Click Here</a> > >----------------------------- ---------- >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 1999 Report Share Posted October 13, 1999 Hi aleks, >seriously, do you think "distant viewing" is akin >to lucid dreaming? It is unlike it in this way: in dream work we are dealing with our own interior work with "dream stuff"... the stuff of the astral plane. We work to be more conscious during dreams... and later to manipulate the dream stuff at will and as we want to. It has nothing to do with the physical plane and the outer "real" world. In remote viewing we are looking to see what is really happening at some particular space-time. In experiments like those at Stanford, the subject is attempting to describe/draw what is really there in a physical/plane sense. And his results are matched with photos in order to judge his success. Of course, if we are looking for something non-physical, like the state of someone's chakras, that's somewhat different... and we may be using our own ways of symbolic seeing in order to perceive what is there. For instance, if I see a chakra lit up in a particular color, does that mean that another person will see exactly the same thing? NO. But our interpretations of what we see should correspond. The colors I see in are a learned set of colors/chakras... years ago I used to use another system of colors. I was interested to read that Govinda says not to always associate the same color, symbol, etc., with the same chakra... that they can be used for different chakras, depending on the purpose of your meditation. However, there is this "kinship" between remote viewing and lucid dreaming... that symbols are used. And dream work probably helps us to be more flexible and to more easily use symbols while being aware that they _are_ symbols. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 1999 Report Share Posted October 13, 1999 Hello Jan, Interesting this detail in the switch that is made from glycogen to fat as fuel for the runner reaching the wall. Could be compared to the way memory is stored instead of energy for the person staying awake. Short term memory, of less than an hour or so, being stored mostly only in the structure of the neurons pathways, the network they make. This memory structure coming to be stored in the medium term memory in proteins or RDA (RDN in french). This last form of storage seem to be done mostly in a relaxation stage, no absolute need to sleep, but stress does seem to put aside its normal function. And long term memory, that becomes your flesh like bones are or a simple scar on the skin may be to this ever changing entity of atoms that we are, seem to call to the deep process occurring in rapid eye movement sleep. Of course someone walking in a rapid eye movement state, but that could still move, would be a real danger to himself or herself, like the children without the sense of touch, or the so many animals on which we have done some experiment going on this path. Maybe part of the process of kundalini, or simply evolution, when we look at us within a type of arrow of time, so maybe kundalini is simply that: "making the sleeper walk with an awareness". How to process the oldest memories, in the moment, with the use of the less possible energy. Hummm. The engineer in me talking again. Jan Barendrecht wrote: > Thanks for sharing this Antoine. Your experience reminds of a > few children who were born without the sense of touch and as a > consequence didn't feel injuries or burns. Because even if > when can conquer the feeling of sleep and keep functioning, > side effects remain that could be interpreted as a warning > something isn't right; for instance, the regulation of the > body temperature will get off stroke. As you didn't show any > physical symptom of something "not right", you are definitely > in the danger zone like the kids without the sense of touch > who in principle could burn alive without feeling it.. Maybe i was simply blinded by this "longing for an objective" center. The sense of touch was still there, but i loved the fire even more to want to make it mine. http://pages.infinit.net/carrea/tree/other/wholeness.htm This reply from Gene puts better than i could in words, how i could describe how i feel today about this sense of longing i had. > The wall with long distance running is caused by the fact that > the store of glycogen is depleted; the body has to make the > switch to fat as a fuel. Glycogen could be called a "fast" > burner whereas fat is a "slow" burner; fat requires more > oxygen too. For the runner to maintain speed, it means a lot > of suffering, as the body can't burn fat fast enough and more > energy is required than before because of the extra work for > the lungs. So this can't be endured indefinitely and some > runners will collapse before the end of the race. The ability > to "forget" this pain is a must for the professional long > distance runner. > > Take care, > > Jan Enjoy, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 Hi Jan, >Distant viewing differs from lucid dreaming in the sense >distant viewing could be called disembodied perception. There >is no trace of body and the moment one thinks of a location it >is viewed. Lucid dreaming starts by becoming aware in a dream, >to be dreaming. I stumbled on distant viewing when it still >was possible to stop thinking and yet to fall asleep; >awareness would slowly dim like a candle getting out of oxygen >and at a certain moment, a scenery would pop up and it could >be viewed from all sides. So the practice is much simpler than >lucid dreaming, only maintaining the intermediary state is >much more difficult. This shows another difference with lucid >dreaming; in distant viewing, silence remained whereas in >lucid dreaming, mind is running at top speed. That was >suggestive of the hypothesis that the mind isn't creating the >images as in lucid dreaming. When Ingo Swann was doing remote viewing in the lab at Stanford, they said he sat there in his comfortable chair and smoked his cigar... seemed perfectly normal... and at the same time seemed to be off looking at the target. Of course, he'd had a lot of practice by then, I suppose. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 HI Antoine, >Interesting this detail in the switch that is made from glycogen to fat >as fuel for the runner reaching the wall. Could be compared to the way >memory is stored instead of energy for the person staying awake. Short >term memory, of less than an hour or so, being stored mostly only in the >structure of the neurons pathways, the network they make. This memory >structure coming to be stored in the medium term memory in proteins or >RDA (RDN in french). This last form of storage seem to be done mostly in >a relaxation stage, no absolute need to sleep, but stress does seem to >put aside its normal function. And long term memory, that becomes your >flesh like bones are or a simple scar on the skin may be to this ever >changing entity of atoms that we are, seem to call to the deep process >occurring in rapid eye movement sleep. But that isn't deep sleep, right? That's a dreaming state. I seem to merge into that easily sometimes. I like to read before going to sleep... and I sometimes realize I've been dreaming as I read... so then I put the book down and turn out the light. It makes for some interesting reading! )) if it makes any sense at all! )) LOL! So is it the case that REM sleep is deep enough for this long-term-memory storage? >Of course someone walking in a rapid eye movement state, but that could >still move, would be a real danger to himself or herself, like the >children without the sense of touch, or the so many animals on which we >have done some experiment going on this path. Maybe part of the process >of kundalini, or simply evolution, when we look at us within a type of >arrow of time, so maybe kundalini is simply that: "making the sleeper >walk with an awareness". How to process the oldest memories, in the >moment, with the use of the less possible energy. > >Hummm. The engineer in me talking again. Very interesting... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 On 10/14/99 at 2:48 AM Dharma wrote: >Dharma <fisher1 > >Hi Jan, > >[...] >When Ingo Swann was doing remote viewing in the lab at Stanford, they said >he sat there in his comfortable chair and smoked his cigar... seemed >perfectly normal... and at the same time seemed to be off looking at the >target. Of course, he'd had a lot of practice by then, I suppose. > >Love, >Dharma Wouldn't it be more likely to suppose a sponsor (like tobacco industry) was paying (well for everything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 >>When Ingo Swann was doing remote viewing in the lab at >Stanford, they said >>he sat there in his comfortable chair and smoked his cigar... > seemed >>perfectly normal... and at the same time seemed to be off >looking at the >>target. Of course, he'd had a lot of practice by then, I >suppose. >> >>Love, >>Dharma > >Wouldn't it be more likely to suppose a sponsor (like tobacco >industry) was paying (well for everything? Good grief, Jan! These were Stanford scientists in the lab... and the subject was a successful artist who had no need of more money... and was donating his time for the lab experiments. Swann was also well known for his psychic abilities... are you seriously suggesting that the entire series of experiments was faked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 On 10/14/99 at 11:16 AM Dharma wrote: >Dharma <fisher1 > > >>>When Ingo Swann was doing remote viewing in the lab at >>Stanford, they said >>>he sat there in his comfortable chair and smoked his cigar... >> seemed >>>perfectly normal... and at the same time seemed to be off >>looking at the >>>target. Of course, he'd had a lot of practice by then, I >>suppose. >>> >>>Love, >>>Dharma >> >>Wouldn't it be more likely to suppose a sponsor (like tobacco >>industry) was paying (well for everything? > >Good grief, Jan! These were Stanford scientists in the lab... and the >subject was a successful artist who had no need of more money... and was >donating his time for the lab experiments. > >Swann was also well known for his psychic abilities... are you seriously >suggesting that the entire series of experiments was faked? > Universities can't exist just on government fees and a sponsor is rather likely. So it is informative to know the sponsor of a research program, before anything can be said about the results. For instance, consider what might happen with a research program on the causes of constipation, sponsored by a big fast food chain and it turns out fast food is the number one cause of constipation Adding laxatives to the ingredients, repeat the tests, then publish the results ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 Dharma wrote: > Dharma <fisher1 > > HI Antoine, > > >Interesting this detail in the switch that is made from glycogen to fat > >as fuel for the runner reaching the wall. Could be compared to the way > >memory is stored instead of energy for the person staying awake. Short > >term memory, of less than an hour or so, being stored mostly only in the > >structure of the neurons pathways, the network they make. This memory > >structure coming to be stored in the medium term memory in proteins or > >RDA (RDN in french). This last form of storage seem to be done mostly in > >a relaxation stage, no absolute need to sleep, but stress does seem to > >put aside its normal function. And long term memory, that becomes your > >flesh like bones are or a simple scar on the skin may be to this ever > >changing entity of atoms that we are, seem to call to the deep process > >occurring in rapid eye movement sleep. > > But that isn't deep sleep, right? That's a dreaming state. I seem to > merge into that easily sometimes. I like to read before going to sleep... > and I sometimes realize I've been dreaming as I read... so then I put the > book down and turn out the light. It makes for some interesting reading! > )) if it makes any sense at all! )) LOL! Hello Dharma, REM, for Rapid Eye Movement, is a stage of Deep sleep. Clinically, people are said not to remember the dreams in REM, but we know we are processing something then (a form of dream) from the eyes moving, an observer may observe on the sleeper. This is clinically, i leave it to each individual to know for themselves if they have some memories or not of those incursion in the "dark" side. The dreaming state that comes just after going to sleep or before waking up, and that we often remember is in another clinical stage of sleep, where the body is closer to a relaxation state, rather than a completely paralyzed state (except for the eyes) like in in Deep sleep. Someone please do correct me if my memory of the studies of clinical sleep state is going bizurk. I may add that for children the deep sleep ratio is from 50% to 75% of total sleep. At the end of a life spend the ratio of deep sleep comes to be only of 25%, in clinical studies. Of course Dharma, you may be referring at someone walking in a dream world and that feels a rock, or minerals, as something in very deep sleep compared to living flesh. Who knows? Only you may know i guess. Enjoy, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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