Guest guest Posted October 10, 1999 Report Share Posted October 10, 1999 >>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >> >>Greg: >><snip> ...about what is being what is - it doesn't really depend upon the >>psychological event of the container being abandoned. What is, is, NOW, >>regardless of thoughts or feelings or whatever. It's already the case >>everywhere, all the time NOW. ... >> >>Dan: To me, what you state here is clear and useful. There seems to be >>much discussion that occurs of "being what is" as if that were something we >>get to at some point, by some practice or some realization. Such >>assumptions seem to imply that one can practice more and more to realize it >>more and more. >>As if there were a "something" that one "has" to realize, and which will >>"improve" onself in some way. > >Glo: This is quite a point you mention here, Dan. Is this not the very >reason people attend satsangs? Hoping to have some moment of realization? >When many people go around speaking of having such an awakening experience, >others want this for themselves or feel they are missing something. Learning >the "jargon" of this satsang language then becomes a special way to be in on >some secret. Now I'm not saying there are no genuine awakenings happening as >well..just noting that this contributes to what you are speaking about here. Dan: I agree, Glo. This hope to "get" something, improve oneself, come out better than one went in, seems to attract people to satsangs as well as many other things. Coversely, one may hold the carrot on the stick in front of people by alluding to something one has that they don't. I do think there are those who simply speak from "presentness" as if speaking to themselves. They express the energy of who they are, and that is all. If those who listen hear in the same way, there is simply movement of energy, beingness. >D: There often seems to be an assumption that >>if it already is the case, this is too easy, simple, and not enough work or >>insight involved. I suspect that we want the meaning that being able to >>follow, improve, practice, and "get ahead" give us. > >G: Here you are at the heart of the matter. There is as well a desire to >have some "recognizable by others" criteria. It also has the "advantage" of >postponing responsibility. Not to be so hard on people, this need for >validation from others runs pretty deep in our psyche and the issue of >trusting oneself "to know" has to overcome the assumption one does not >already know. D: Yes - deep assumptions constructed over time, through many experiences, through reacting to perceptions that react to perceptions, etc. And yes - postponing allows one to defer from realizing that this, simply as it is, is it. No great balls of fire from the sky, or shooting off of fireworks in the mind. Perhaps we perpetuate a game to avoid disappointment and loss - and dissapointment and loss seem unavoidable to confront when one has been perpetuating false hopes, dependence on beliefs, wishful thinking, and wanting to "have" things in a way that one cannot. On the other side of disappointment is freedom, simplicity, only oneself. G: I call it The Alfred E. Newman reaction of "who me?" Then >that striptease of peeling off layers of ignorance one at a time is very >seductive. :) When so many spiritual paths are already spelled out as >taking such years of effort, there is yet another assumption. So it really >does not seem so easy to get to easy street, with all these distracting >sideshows along the way. D: Yes. And the sideshows can (and perhaps will) go on and on, breed more and newer spinoffs, and perpetuate themselves ad infinitum. G: The simplicity of "just paying attention" as Becky >so wonderfully described this does mean giving up all the other ways we so >habitually distract and avoid. Back to Greg's original statement.. it may >not "require" any special thoughts or feelings, yet that is what people want >and seek out... a better entertainment. Deep down, I was hoping for the new >car and I really wanted to be someone else more special. For me there is >a quieter ecstasy with ordinary beingness. D: Yes. I feel with you on this. > D: I don't say this to >>criticize anyone, but to express my intention not to get "caught" in ideas >>that the loss of these "meanings" is to be avoided, that certain practices >>are imperative, that "improving" myself is essential, that seeing things a >>certain way is necessary, and that knowing who is the right teacher with >>the right path is a key thing for me. >> >>The paradox here, as I see it, is that the awareness toward which I see you >>pointing involves much more depth than might at first be apparent. At >>least, that has been my experience. It involves real clarity, not getting >>"caught," not being fooled (by words, practices, all the ways that people >>insinuate, persuade, or insist that "this alone" isn't enough, that "who I >>am" isn't enough). It's not at all a matter of the words, "this is it" -- >>this being it is a transformative reality, not a static fact or position -- > >G: Not a state, either? D: Agreed. G: Your clarity is much appreciated here on the list. >You have a real gift for describing that transformative reality. I count >myself extremely fortunate to be among those reading your words here, even >knowing "it's not at all a matter of the words." D: I'm happy that you've seen the intent of these words. Yes - not at all a matter of the words. So that means that something I have said was used by you to be here with yourself. Then the words are the mirror you are using at this moment. You might use any moment itself as a mirror regardless of anyone's words. And I guess a mirror can be like Alice in Wonderland, a walking through just as much as a reflection of self or being. >Thanks for all you say here. My happiness in sharing this with you. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 1999 Report Share Posted October 30, 1999 Dear Dan and List, Was your message sent out on 10/10 and it wedged in one of those interstices of the net?? Or are you just cleaning out your closet and now gettting around to replying? I swear the one I received today is dated 10/10. so I just want to ask am I the only one receiving it 20 days later or did everyone else also just get this one?? Suspicious of time warps, but more likely I am going to feel really really stupid for even asking this? Glo Dan Berkow, PhD <berkowd < > Saturday, October 30, 1999 8:49 AM Re: Glo/words and being >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > > >>>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >>> >>>Greg: >>><snip> ...about what is being what is - it doesn't really depend upon the >>>psychological event of the container being abandoned. What is, is, NOW, >>>regardless of thoughts or feelings or whatever. It's already the case >>>everywhere, all the time NOW. ... >>> >>>Dan: To me, what you state here is clear and useful. There seems to be >>>much discussion that occurs of "being what is" as if that were something we >>>get to at some point, by some practice or some realization. Such >>>assumptions seem to imply that one can practice more and more to realize it >>>more and more. >>>As if there were a "something" that one "has" to realize, and which will >>>"improve" onself in some way. >> >>Glo: This is quite a point you mention here, Dan. Is this not the very >>reason people attend satsangs? Hoping to have some moment of realization? >>When many people go around speaking of having such an awakening experience, >>others want this for themselves or feel they are missing something. Learning >>the "jargon" of this satsang language then becomes a special way to be in on >>some secret. Now I'm not saying there are no genuine awakenings happening as >>well..just noting that this contributes to what you are speaking about here. > >Dan: I agree, Glo. This hope to "get" something, improve oneself, come >out better than one went in, seems to attract people to satsangs as well as >many other things. Coversely, one may hold the carrot on the stick in >front of people by alluding to something one has that they don't. I do >think there are those who simply speak from "presentness" as if speaking to >themselves. They >express the energy of who they are, and that is all. If those who listen >hear in the same way, there is simply movement of energy, beingness. > >>D: There often seems to be an assumption that >>>if it already is the case, this is too easy, simple, and not enough work or >>>insight involved. I suspect that we want the meaning that being able to >>>follow, improve, practice, and "get ahead" give us. >> >>G: Here you are at the heart of the matter. There is as well a desire to >>have some "recognizable by others" criteria. It also has the "advantage" of >>postponing responsibility. Not to be so hard on people, this need for >>validation from others runs pretty deep in our psyche and the issue of >>trusting oneself "to know" has to overcome the assumption one does not >>already know. > >D: Yes - deep assumptions constructed over time, through many experiences, >through reacting to perceptions that react to perceptions, etc. And yes - >postponing allows one to defer from realizing that this, simply as it is, >is it. No great balls of fire from the sky, or shooting off of fireworks >in the mind. Perhaps we perpetuate a game to avoid disappointment and loss >- and dissapointment and loss seem unavoidable to confront when one has >been perpetuating false hopes, dependence on beliefs, wishful thinking, and >wanting to "have" things in a way that one cannot. On the other side of >disappointment is freedom, simplicity, only oneself. > >G: I call it The Alfred E. Newman reaction of "who me?" Then >>that striptease of peeling off layers of ignorance one at a time is very >>seductive. :) When so many spiritual paths are already spelled out as >>taking such years of effort, there is yet another assumption. So it really >>does not seem so easy to get to easy street, with all these distracting >>sideshows along the way. > >D: Yes. And the sideshows can (and perhaps will) go on and on, breed more >and newer spinoffs, and perpetuate themselves ad infinitum. > >G: The simplicity of "just paying attention" as Becky >>so wonderfully described this does mean giving up all the other ways we so >>habitually distract and avoid. Back to Greg's original statement.. it may >>not "require" any special thoughts or feelings, yet that is what people want >>and seek out... a better entertainment. Deep down, I was hoping for the new >>car and I really wanted to be someone else more special. For me there is >>a quieter ecstasy with ordinary beingness. > >D: Yes. I feel with you on this. > >> D: I don't say this to >>>criticize anyone, but to express my intention not to get "caught" in ideas >>>that the loss of these "meanings" is to be avoided, that certain practices >>>are imperative, that "improving" myself is essential, that seeing things a >>>certain way is necessary, and that knowing who is the right teacher with >>>the right path is a key thing for me. >>> >>>The paradox here, as I see it, is that the awareness toward which I see you >>>pointing involves much more depth than might at first be apparent. At >>>least, that has been my experience. It involves real clarity, not getting >>>"caught," not being fooled (by words, practices, all the ways that people >>>insinuate, persuade, or insist that "this alone" isn't enough, that "who I >>>am" isn't enough). It's not at all a matter of the words, "this is it" -- >>>this being it is a transformative reality, not a static fact or position -- >> >>G: Not a state, either? > >D: Agreed. > >G: Your clarity is much appreciated here on the list. >>You have a real gift for describing that transformative reality. I count >>myself extremely fortunate to be among those reading your words here, even >>knowing "it's not at all a matter of the words." > >D: I'm happy that you've seen the intent of these words. Yes - not at all >a matter of the words. So that means that something I have said was used >by you to be here with yourself. Then the words are the mirror you are >using at this moment. You might use any moment itself as a mirror >regardless of anyone's words. And I guess a mirror can be like Alice in >Wonderland, a walking through just as much as a reflection of self or being. > >>Thanks for all you say here. > >My happiness in sharing this with you. > >Dan > >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Nowhere is Now Here. All paths, places, and sights and perceptions exist only in the Space of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Here. You are not "in" the now. You Are the Now! Here is Home. Home is where True Rest Is. Home is where the Heart Is. It is the Seer resting in the Seer, the Self-Nature, the Buddha Nature, or call it what you will. The Radical Truth is Radiance of Awareness. It is both the path, process, and the goal. It is Finality of Being without any support. It is Total Independence and Ever Present. The Truth of the Self needs no psychological or spiritual crutches. It needs no philosophy, no religion, no explanation, no teaching, and no teacher, and yet It is always their support. A true devotee relishes in the Truth. The Truth of Self-Knowledge which is Pure Intelligence. Welcome all to a. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.