Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 In a message dated 10/14/1999 12:55:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, berkowd writes: << ><< Dan: > A question asked deeply, profoundly, > involves one's whole being. > To answer is assertion. > Assertion is to affirm or to deny that something is so. > Any basis for assertion is assumed. > >Rainbo: >No, not necessarily, a basis for assertion may be known >rather than assumed. We know, of course, what assume >breaks into... Dan: You mean it breaks into uproarious laughter at my willingness to make an ass of myself? (leaving you out of it for now :^) ) Any "knowing" involves assumption, if examined deeply. As I say this, I am asserting, therefore I can only say this by making assumptions. No, herein is the critical difference, as you "say this" you are thinking and *knowing* doesn't involve thinking, it is known by experience, as in " ... *Know Thyself* ... " i'm beginning to repeat myself, lol, so, you may include me :-) >Dan: > Assumption predetermines an outcome. > Therefore, to answer, to assert, is to predetermine reality. > >Rainbo: >There is a difference between known as a constant, >and assumption based on change. Dan: When examined carefully, any assumption is taken as a constant, however briefly it is assumed. Any known constant is the relative appearance of constancy only... Rather than postulate (assume) a known constant, we can look into our desire to postulate such a constant >Dan: > Predetermined reality is supposition. > >Rainbo: > >Depends on which level of reality we're speaking of. >The penultimate reality is a known, and the impermanent >Maya is unknown and subject to change without notice, >careful that razor-edge walking brings one close to the Void *g* Dan: Reality doesn't have levels, except according to a point of view with imbedded assumptions. A Void can only be asserted by making assumptions. The razor's edge becomes a point, the point disappears into a million points that disappear... Rainbo: A Void is experienced, when one gives all of oneself away and crosses the Void, then it is not an assumption, it is a known quantity, and so then one passes "through the eye of the needle" alive or dead ... there are smaller eyes to pass through and larger eyes, I've seen people do this at different levels, but having passed through you've died, even if alive ... "Normal, sane" people will now "think" i've crossed the razor's edge *g*. >Dan: > Full inquiry can only lead into itself, beyond assertion and supposition. > Beyond affirmation or negation, without any idea of "beyond". > The question disappears into itself. > >> >Rainbo: >Agreed. Dan: After all that, we're in agreement. In that case, it's time to disappear into myself. Leaving a smile -- Cheshire Dan ) Rainbo: Rather amazing how we can end in agreement *g* >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 ><< Dan: > A question asked deeply, profoundly, > involves one's whole being. > To answer is assertion. > Assertion is to affirm or to deny that something is so. > Any basis for assertion is assumed. > >Rainbo: >No, not necessarily, a basis for assertion may be known >rather than assumed. We know, of course, what assume >breaks into... Dan: You mean it breaks into uproarious laughter at my willingness to make an ass of myself? (leaving you out of it for now :^) ) Any "knowing" involves assumption, if examined deeply. As I say this, I am asserting, therefore I can only say this by making assumptions. >Dan: > Assumption predetermines an outcome. > Therefore, to answer, to assert, is to predetermine reality. > >Rainbo: >There is a difference between known as a constant, >and assumption based on change. Dan: When examined carefully, any assumption is taken as a constant, however briefly it is assumed. Any known constant is the relative appearance of constancy only... Rather than postulate (assume) a known constant, we can look into our desire to postulate such a constant >Dan: > Predetermined reality is supposition. > >Rainbo: > >Depends on which level of reality we're speaking of. >The penultimate reality is a known, and the impermanent >Maya is unknown and subject to change without notice, >careful that razor-edge walking brings one close to the Void *g* Dan: Reality doesn't have levels, except according to a point of view with imbedded assumptions. A Void can only be asserted by making assumptions. The razor's edge becomes a point, the point disappears into a million points that disappear... >Dan: > Full inquiry can only lead into itself, beyond assertion and supposition. > Beyond affirmation or negation, without any idea of "beyond". > The question disappears into itself. > >> >Rainbo: >Agreed. Dan: After all that, we're in agreement. In that case, it's time to disappear into myself. Leaving a smile -- Cheshire Dan ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 1999 Report Share Posted October 14, 1999 > >Rainbo: No, not necessarily, a basis for assertion may be known > >rather than assumed. We know, of course, what assume > >breaks into... > > Dan: You mean it breaks into uproarious laughter > at my willingness to make an ass of myself? (leaving you out > of it for now :^) ) > Any "knowing" involves assumption, if examined deeply. > As I say this, I am asserting, therefore I can > only say this by making assumptions. > >R: No, herein is the critical difference, as you "say this" you are thinking >and *knowing* doesn't involve thinking, it is known by experience, >as in " ... *Know Thyself* ... " i'm beginning to repeat myself, lol, >so, you may include me :-) D: Rainbo, what I'm saying *is* about experiencing. It's about the direct moment of experience where nothing can be asserted or denied. Once experience is representable, something can be asserted or denied about it. Something is then assumed. Such as "I know myself" or "I don't know myself." When you say *knowing* perhaps you mean something different than knowing as I was discussing it - words can be sticky. I'm discussing knowing as representing something as an image, including images of the Void or anything else. I am pointing toward *unknowing* and for all I know this may not be so dissimilar from what you are calling *knowing*. I'm pointing toward *unknow thyself* and you are saying *know thyself*. There's a point in between the two that can't be discussed or indicated. > Dan: Reality doesn't have levels, except according to a point > of view with imbedded assumptions. > A Void can only be asserted by making assumptions. > The razor's edge becomes a point, the point disappears > into a million points that disappear... > >Rainbo: >A Void is experienced, when one gives all of oneself away and >crosses the Void, then it is not an assumption, it is a known >quantity, and so then one passes "through the eye of the needle" Dan: I wouldn't use the terminology "known quantity" here. I would look at it this way: there is a letting go of everything known, including even the intent to make something knowable. There is nothing that can be remembered or asserted here. I guess the idea of "thinking" arises for me here - to make your assertions about a Void being crossed, and having it be a known quantity sounds like "thinking". >R: alive or dead ... there are smaller eyes to pass through and larger >eyes, I've seen people do this at different levels, but having passed >through you've died, even if alive ... > >"Normal, sane" people will now "think" i've crossed the razor's edge *g*. D: Luckily I'm not one of "them". > >Dan: > > Full inquiry can only lead into itself, beyond assertion and supposition. > > Beyond affirmation or negation, without any idea of "beyond". > > The question disappears into itself. > > >> > >Rainbo: > >Agreed. > > Dan: After all that, we're in agreement. > In that case, it's time to disappear into myself. > Leaving a smile -- Cheshire Dan ) > >Rainbo: Rather amazing how we can end in agreement *g* > >> Dan: I like the idea of ending in agreement and agreeing to be amazed. *)* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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