Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 Hi David Having taken a personal journey through the minefield of psychological counselling I have to agree with you. My own healing has been assisted by counsellors who have taken a wider approach than the purely analytical/rational. I have been lucky to find a wonderful woman who comes from a spiritual base and uses psychological methods as a companion to deeper healing on a spiritual/energy level. She even sent me off to a clairvoyant (an amazing Italian woman, but that's another story) as part of my journey to self-healing. When the healing is based solely on the methods of modern psychology it just doesn't seem to "take" - it is like healing the surface wound, but not getting at the infection beneath it. OM Shanti Michele David Bozzi wrote: > > David Bozzi <david.bozzi > > Had a conversation with a psychologist. Apparently the approach of this field is largely > talking and exposing 'schemas'. (aka mental constructions or patterns) I remarked, 'No one > has ever thought their way out of depression.' He strongly disagreed. I proposed perhaps the > talking is an aspect of the healing but there's more. There's healing on an energy level > beyond the intellect. Intellect is just a small part of it. He said what I was talking about > was 'philosophy'. > > Is it just me, or is the general approach of today's psychology naive and limited? > > The sense I got was that if something is not within the realm of the rational (very > limited) than it is not valid. > > I'm writing this, I suppose, because it disturbs me somewhat, that a field that is dedicated > to healing depression seems so antediluvian. > > David > (venting) > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 1999 Report Share Posted October 28, 1999 michele wrote: > Hi David > Having taken a personal journey through the minefield of psychological > counselling I have to agree with you. My own healing has been assisted > by counsellors who have taken a wider approach than the purely > analytical/rational. I'm happy you found people like this. I do know there are 'aware' psychologists. I once knew one. I'll share a bit more and let you know that I am having to take a psychology course and my teacher is a psychologist. While some of the observations of modern psychology are helpful, like you say, they are for the most part superficial. I'm having some difficulty going through this course and swallowing it.(despite having an 'A' so far) I believe this is perhaps a lesson in tolerance for me. Blessings, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 I have also studied some psychology at tertiary level (I chose to do a couple of units as part of an English degree). What appealed to me where people like Maslow. If you look closely at his concept of self-actualisation it parallels Raj Yoga although he doesn't come right out and say that self-actualisation = enlightenment. His triangle image is one of those archetypal symbols that we have been discussing recently. The upright triangle in Tantra is the representation of Shiva. It also refers to the development from physical existence to the spiritual, and Maslow mimicks this also with base needs (food, survival, shelter) at the bottom and self-actualisation at the peak. As above so below, as below so above As without so within, as within so without OM Shanti Michele David Bozzi wrote: > > David Bozzi <david.bozzi > > michele wrote: > > > Hi David > > Having taken a personal journey through the minefield of psychological > > counselling I have to agree with you. My own healing has been assisted > > by counsellors who have taken a wider approach than the purely > > analytical/rational. > > I'm happy you found people like this. I do know there are 'aware' psychologists. I once knew one. I'll share a bit more and let you know that I am having to take a psychology course and my teacher > is a psychologist. While some of the observations of modern psychology are helpful, like you say, they are for the most part superficial. I'm having some difficulty going through this course and swallowing it.(despite having an 'A' so far) I believe this is perhaps a lesson in tolerance for me. > > Blessings, > > David > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 21:36:34 -0400 David Bozzi <david.bozzi writes: > David Bozzi <david.bozzi > > Had a conversation with a psychologist. Apparently the approach of > this field is largely > talking and exposing 'schemas'. (aka mental constructions or > patterns) I remarked, 'No one > has ever thought their way out of depression.' He strongly > disagreed. I proposed perhaps the > talking is an aspect of the healing but there's more. There's > healing on an energy level > beyond the intellect. Intellect is just a small part of it. He said > what I was talking about was 'philosophy'. Who cares about his labels? The healing is what matters, no? > > Is it just me, or is the general approach of today's psychology > naive and limited? I wouldn't generalize on the basis of one practitioner, many modern therapists (both MDieities and non-MDs), if not most, will concede that an intellectual understanding of ones depression is generally insufficient for anything close to a cure. Most will recommend a combination of counseling and drug therapy, a sizable minority will note the "spiritual" or "religious" aspect of the problem even if they shy away from delving into it in detail with their patients. > > The sense I got was that if something is not within the realm of the > rational (very limited) than it is not valid. > It is a rare practicioner who effectively transcends the *supposedly* "rational" underpinnings of his/her training, but such people do exist! > I'm writing this, I suppose, because it disturbs me somewhat, that a > field that is dedicated to healing depression seems so antediluvian. > That sort of closed- mindedness is very common in the (mental and otherwise!) health professions, but I reiterate that exceptions do exist! http://come.to/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm _ _________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 In a message dated 10/28/99 11:38:12 PM Central Daylight Time, editor writes: << a sizable minority will note the "spiritual" or "religious" aspect of the problem even if they shy away from delving into it in detail with their patients. >> However - it is important that one's psychologist - NOT be one's own personal spiritual teacher. Too many roles there - diana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 David -- I am a lapsed psychologist who gave up almost all of her private practice because of a profound disenchantment with what has happened to the field and because K awakening threw her into a tizzy of confusion as to what the work was really about! I do know many personal exceptions to the sad state of affairs you described because a lot of people become therapists because they are naturally religious and attracted to healing and they can't figure out what else to do for a living because the priesthood or rabbinate is not open to them. I see all healing as coming from God -- it is nothing special, just God doing what comes naturally eternally. It becomes special to us because of how it feels, our gratitude, and, more unfortunately, it becomes special to professionals, gurus, HMO's, workshop leaders, radio show hosts and so forth when we think we can understand, control, market, regulate and take credit for it. Adding my vent to your vent, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Bruce Morgen wrote: > Who cares about his labels? > The healing is what matters, > no? I agree. However, a healer's capacity can be limited by his/her own understanding. The label is the limit. Traditional psychology embraces the label. I acknowledge there are many psychologists that are transcending the label barrier. But they are few, and the world needs more. : ) > I wouldn't generalize on the > basis of one practitioner, > many modern therapists (both > MDieities and non-MDs), if not > most, will concede that an > intellectual understanding of > ones depression is generally > insufficient for anything > close to a cure. I'm glad this is someone's experience. It's certainly not mine. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 At 21:36 28/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >David Bozzi <david.bozzi Hi David, Touching base... Did a degree in Psychology many years ago, and agree with a lot of what you say. I notice that psychology tends to latch onto new ways of ordering the world that appears to be. In my case at university the computer analogy of thought was new territory. Artificial Intelligence and all that. Then AI went into a backwater, and now it's something else... dumdedum... > >Had a conversation with a psychologist. Apparently the approach of this field is largely >talking and exposing 'schemas'. (aka mental constructions or patterns) I remarked, 'No one >has ever thought their way out of depression.' He strongly disagreed. I agree with you mostly. He sounds very much in his head. Over here they still use ECT to "lift" people out of depression. What do they care whether you can't even remember *what* you are afterwards? (rant) I do think that thoughts have energy, so there is some truth to what he said, but not entirely as he meant it, imo. Hypnnosis at least involves the person in a living experience. I proposed perhaps the >talking is an aspect of the healing but there's more. There's healing on an energy level >beyond the intellect. Intellect is just a small part of it. He said what I was talking about >was 'philosophy'. What he thinks is philosophy is what he can dismiss as thought experiments, but that is often what psychology is. He could learn a lot about the philosophy of science... > >Is it just me, or is the general approach of today's psychology naive and limited? Limited by its own obsession with scientific methodology in a field that far surpasses aristotelian science, and our limited knowledge. (Why *do* they call it Psychology, derived from the Greek word for soul? Where's the compassion, when you regard ppl as statistical entities that respond in predeterminable patterns?) I had a telling little experience during my course: a tutor of mine approached me with a device that included a pair of headphones, a microphone and box with a dial on it. She asked me to wear the headphones and speak into the microphone as I read out of a book. The dial altered the delay between the sounds coming out of my mouth and my hearing them in the 'phones. She smiled and told me that this device caused all the ppl she'd tested it on to stammer and stutter. Off we went, and I found that although the delay was noticeable, I could read without any hesitation. She was surprised. She grabbed the box and tweaked the dial around while I read. By this time I was having fun, and I started to read in a sing-song way to play my voice off against the echoed voice. My tutor couldn't understand how I did it. It didn't fit her findings. Tried to tell her: when you play a lot of improvised music, you tend to learn to dissociate what you are doing with what you are hearing, so that you can create extrapolations on what is happening without losing the thread. So I was using that part of my mind that synthesises musical information to read and listen as separate streams of awareness. She left shaking her head. I don't know if she ever got into why I wouldn't stammer. She never came back to me. Guess I'm too weird for science... > >The sense I got was that if something is not within the realm of the rational (very >limited) than it is not valid. The definition of what is psychology varies depending on who you talk to: Oxford University in 1985 didn't mention Freud, others didn't mention Jung tho' they dealt with Freud. All dealt with behaviourism, most dealt with cognitive psych. > >I'm writing this, I suppose, because it disturbs me somewhat, that a field that is dedicated >to healing depression seems so antediluvian. Yup. Agree with you there! However, there's some who moved on, look at Jung, Reich, Perls, even Janov. So perhaps its just about the badge wavers telling ppl to only look at their badge... I'm gone Robert > >David >(venting) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 Thanks Holly. I do know therapists like yourself you have come to the same conclusions as yourself. It's good to know not everyone gets bogged down by the college texts in any field. I see a lot of medical doctors bound by an ancient science that ultimately harms their patients. But some grow beyond the limits. New fields pop up (naturopaths/ transpersonal psychologists, etc) Blessings, David Hbarrett47 wrote: > I see all healing as coming from God -- it is nothing > special, just God doing what comes naturally eternally. It becomes special > to us because of how it feels, our gratitude, and, more unfortunately, it > becomes special to professionals, gurus, HMO's, workshop leaders, radio show > hosts and so forth when we think we can understand, control, market, regulate > and take credit for it. Adding my vent to your vent, Holly PS - a healthy dose of venting can be healing. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 1999 Report Share Posted October 29, 1999 With respect for study, There are really wonderful physicians, psychologists and therapists who are not bogged down. Elliott Dacher, M.D., wrote a book called "PsychoNeuroImmunology" I guess about 10 years ago now. When I was diagnosed with a terminal illness he helped me clear it with meditation in about three weeks. He's a Harvard M.D. who lectures worldwide. I could give some family examples of uncles and brothers but i dislike personalizing things all the time. There are other wonderful psychiatrists and therapists I know working with Tai Chi, Accupuncture, nutrition, holism, meditation, herbology, and other forms of healing. It was the Greek God Chiron who was credited with bringing the healing arts in, and surgery derived from the ancient chiergury is just one of those derivations, there is also chirology, light polarization, and many others. There is someone on list who has two psychiatrist parents who both meditate and at least one does Tai Chi, like the rest of us, this is all fairly new to our western minds, so, it's not easy, and from their scientific training for so many years, it also is in some ways more difficult. But the physicians are moving fast, they get more evidence and often alot of exposure to "miracles." Last summer, I was attending a conference with the founders of the Earth Core for Peace, and at the same time, in this rural setting where the conference center was, there was a conference being sponsored by Jim Gordon, M.D., who had just returned from Sarajevo where he'd been working with war trauma victims, I forget now the name of the book "Healthy Body, Healthy Mind?" Anyway, we kind of jumped into one another's lectures and had breakfast, there were loads of physicians there who were becoming awake and aware to the possibilities of healing. Perhaps we are all responsible for ourselves, our visions, our health and for being honest with our own physicians and therapists allowing them to grow with us. Now, I must confess, if everyone had glorified the medical community this email would have debated the other side :-) Much L*L*L ~ bo ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 1999 Report Share Posted October 30, 1999 At 09:11 PM 10/29/99 , RainboLily wrote: >Elliott Dacher, M.D., wrote a book called "PsychoNeuroImmunology" >I guess about 10 years ago now. When I was diagnosed with a terminal >illness he helped me clear it with meditation in about three weeks. I'm really glad you're still with us!! Thanks to Dr. Dacher, and thanks to you!! Love, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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