No 'how to', Moksha in the West.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

>Thanks for all the info on Greek and Western

>Philosophers, Plotinus etc. I can see the non-dualism

>and some exercises, but nothing like the spiritual

>science,in India. Where even the non-intellectuals can

>follow practices that are aimed at Moksha. The

>different Darshanas in India appeal to all levels and

>all end up in Adwaita. I see no comparable system

>elsewhere. Thanks for your answers but they have

>convinced me even more of my position that there is no

>real mass,'how to', in the West.Including Baruch

>Spinoza etc.somebody mentioned.

>

>If there ever was in the Greek Mystery schools, it is

>lost and was exclusive.

 

Not completely lost, I think.

 

Jesus and Paul were initiates, and Meade says Jesus' great offense was that

he taught to everyone what was supposed to be taught only to initiates.

However, not all of his teachings were passed down in the canonical

gospels. (For non-Christians, the gospels are the books that tell of the

life and teachings of Jesus.) A choice of books was made; four gospels

were selected for the canon, and others were rejected. We have some of the

rejected material in the _Apocrypha_, a collection of non-canonical

writings. But it's just been fairly recently that Gnostic gospels have

been discovered... these were obviously rejected in toto. And it's

generally accepted that the canonical gospels were edited... we'll

probably never know what material was cut out.

 

The Gnostic Christians were declared heretics, and their tradition was

suppressed. But it didn't entirely disappear... it went underground.

Jessie Weston, a scholar in medieval literature, wrote _From Ritual to

Romance_, in which she shows that the stories of the Grail Cycle were the

exoteric literature of an esoteric cult or religion, and that this cult was

the result of the combination of Christian Gnosticism with elements of the

pre-Christian European mythology. She states several times (in footnotes

that she learned this from members of the still-existing Grail Cult...

and then spent ten years doing the research to prove it.

 

There are many stories of secret Gnostic traditions in one place or

another... I don't suppose we'll ever know about all of it... which of

the known "mystics" may have been influenced by it... or how much still

survives in secret. It seems fairly certain that that's what the

suppression of the Albigenses was all about... these people in the south

of France had a Gnostic tradition, and they were wiped out... I think a

Crusade was called against them, and good knights went into battle for the

Church.

 

Meditation/contemplation has been taught in the monasteries, of course, but

there's one education for clergy and another for laity. The Protestant

Reformation opened the way for the co-existence of many traditions, but

it's doubtful how much of the old tradition actually survived.

 

I think that if the Vatican Library is ever opened to the public, we'll

find the greatest collection of Gnostic and occult literature in the world,

much of it otherwise lost.

 

There is another tradition, that of the pre-Christian religion of Europe,

which was suppressed by the Christian church, its god called "the devil."

That tradition also went underground, and seems to have survived at least

in a few places. Sybil Leek, high priestess of the Horsa Coven of the New

Forest in England, grew up in a Wiccan family and began learning the

tradition as a small child. If you read her books, you'll see that's

there's much that she isn't telling... and she speaks of students living

in her home, who were all learning meditation in addition to other things.

She always wore a muumuu so that she was ready at any time to sit in

meditation.

 

When she came to the USA, she visited many covens across the country...

she wrote that she found six that seemed to have the authentic tradition.

The rest had simply read some books and decided to be witches. There

are many Wiccans here now, and it's possible to attend a gathering without

being an initiate of Wicca ("Wisdom"). I have attended a weekend

gathering, where I was asked to teach Raja Yoga, and there was meditation

on the beach every morning. But it is still necessary to join and go

through the initiations to receive the inner teachings. (This is not

unknown in the East, BTW... you won't find all of the Tibetan teachings in

books.)

 

The Druids had always had the function of preserving the knowledge and

wisdom of their people, including history, geneology, mythology, legend...

everything. In an ostensibly oral tradition, they had prodigious memories

and carried many books in their minds. During the Dark Ages of Europe, the

Druids preserved their knowledge and much other knowledge and culture

besides, often in ostensibly Catholic monasteries... primarily in Ireland,

I think. Today, some of the old Celtic texts have been translated, but

there is still a great wealth of old books that have not been translated.

Who knows what treasures may be found there?

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Tony O'Clery wrote:

>

> Tony O'Clery <aoclery

>

> Namaste all,

>

> Thanks for all the info on Greek and Western

> Philosophers, Plotinus etc. I can see the non-dualism

> and some exercises, but nothing like the spiritual

> science,in India. Where even the non-intellectuals can

> follow practices that are aimed at Moksha. The

> different Darshanas in India appeal to all levels and

> all end up in Adwaita. I see no comparable system

> elsewhere. Thanks for your answers but they have

> convinced me even more of my position that there is no

> real mass,'how to', in the West.Including Baruch

> Spinoza etc.somebody mentioned.

>

> If there ever was in the Greek Mystery schools, it is

> lost and was exclusive.

>

> Thank you still waiting!

>

> Love Tony.

>

I agree Tony, definitely there is more developed and accessable nondual

how to material in the various eastern traditions, not only in India but

also the various traditions in Tibet, China, Japan, SE Asia, etc..

Of course someone like J. Krishnamurti would say that such how to

material is worthless! Mysticism in the west seems to have been feared

and suppressed much of the time, resulting in a much more

individualistic and spontaneous haphazard flowering of awareness. As

well as the Greek mystery schools, mention should be made of the Celtic

bardic tradition, although it is also mostly lost, having been an oral

tradition, and only recorded by christian monks, who censored much of

what they saw as heathen and devilish.

 

love, andrew

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrew,

>I agree Tony, definitely there is more developed and accessable nondual

>how to material in the various eastern traditions, not only in India but

>also the various traditions in Tibet, China, Japan, SE Asia, etc..

>Of course someone like J. Krishnamurti would say that such how to

>material is worthless! Mysticism in the west seems to have been feared

>and suppressed much of the time, resulting in a much more

>individualistic and spontaneous haphazard flowering of awareness. As

>well as the Greek mystery schools, mention should be made of the Celtic

>bardic tradition, although it is also mostly lost, having been an oral

>tradition, and only recorded by christian monks, who censored much of

>what they saw as heathen and devilish.

 

I didn't distinguish between Druidic/Celtic Mysteries and other Mysteries

of the Hellenistic world and earlier, because it was very much a community

of similar thought and traditions. The old Irish history (_The Book of the

Invasions of Ireland_) says that the earliest settlers there came from Lake

Meroe in Egypt... or perhaps Libya. And it views later waves of

immigrants as related... and related to the Greeks. The ancient Greeks

themselves regarded the Druids as brethren and priests of Hyperborean

Apollo... there are stories of Druids visiting temples in Greece.

 

The Druids did have writing, but it was a secret of the priesthood. The

Ogham letters are in stick form... one could lay a few sticks in an

apparently random pattern, and no one would know it meant anything. The

names of the letters are the names of trees, as is still the case in the

Irish alphabet... thus the Sacred Grove. ) We have at least some of

their ciphers for the letters of the alphabet... I think I found it in

_The Book of Ballymote_. Some are simple substitutions... in Castle

Ogham, for instance, "Tara" is the letter T. Others involve finger

placements on the nose (in Nose Ogham) or elsewhere. So two Druids could

speak to each other in ciphers without anyone else knowing they were doing

it. Eventually the books were written down in the Celtic languages of the

British Isles... and perhaps in Europe, but we have no writings remaining

there.

 

I think one of the lower ranks of Druids was called "Bards," but the bards

we know of came later. They generally traveled and told the old stories

that they had by memory, preserving the tradition. Earlier in this century

it was dying out, as the last bards found few who wanted to hear the old

stories. One man was observed telling the stories as he walked behind his

plow... telling them to his horse in order not to forget. I don't know

whether the revival of interest may have found some bards still alive.

 

BTW, I should have said that there are remnants of Jesus' more Gnostic

teachings surviving in the gospels, such as when he asks Peter, "Who do men

say that I am?" And Peter answers, "Some say you are Moses, some say

Elijah."

 

The most Gnostic of the canonical gospels is the book of John, which has

always been the favorite of mystics. It's the one that opens with: "In the

beginning was the Word (Gr. logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word

was God."

 

And Jesus tells Nicodemus: "... unless one is born of water and the Spirit,

he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is

flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.... The wind blows

where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it

comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the

Spirit." The Greek word pneuma is used here for both spirit and wind; it

meant spirit, wind, breath... The Tibetans use the term "winds" for the

vital energies, including Kundalini.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dharma wrote:

>

>

> I didn't distinguish between Druidic/Celtic Mysteries and other Mysteries

> of the Hellenistic world and earlier, because it was very much a community

> of similar thought and traditions. The old Irish history (_The Book of the

> Invasions of Ireland_) says that the earliest settlers there came from Lake

> Meroe in Egypt... or perhaps Libya. And it views later waves of

> immigrants as related... and related to the Greeks. The ancient Greeks

> themselves regarded the Druids as brethren and priests of Hyperborean

> Apollo... there are stories of Druids visiting temples in Greece.

>

> The Druids did have writing, but it was a secret of the priesthood. The

> Ogham letters are in stick form... one could lay a few sticks in an

> apparently random pattern, and no one would know it meant anything. The

> names of the letters are the names of trees, as is still the case in the

> Irish alphabet... thus the Sacred Grove. ) We have at least some of

> their ciphers for the letters of the alphabet... I think I found it in

> _The Book of Ballymote_. Some are simple substitutions... in Castle

> Ogham, for instance, "Tara" is the letter T. Others involve finger

> placements on the nose (in Nose Ogham) or elsewhere. So two Druids could

> speak to each other in ciphers without anyone else knowing they were doing

> it. Eventually the books were written down in the Celtic languages of the

> British Isles... and perhaps in Europe, but we have no writings remaining

> there.

>

> I think one of the lower ranks of Druids was called "Bards," but the bards

> we know of came later. They generally traveled and told the old stories

> that they had by memory, preserving the tradition. Earlier in this century

> it was dying out, as the last bards found few who wanted to hear the old

> stories. One man was observed telling the stories as he walked behind his

> plow... telling them to his horse in order not to forget. I don't know

> whether the revival of interest may have found some bards still alive.

>

> BTW, I should have said that there are remnants of Jesus' more Gnostic

> teachings surviving in the gospels, such as when he asks Peter, "Who do men

> say that I am?" And Peter answers, "Some say you are Moses, some say

> Elijah."

>

> The most Gnostic of the canonical gospels is the book of John, which has

> always been the favorite of mystics. It's the one that opens with: "In the

> beginning was the Word (Gr. logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word

> was God."

>

> And Jesus tells Nicodemus: "... unless one is born of water and the Spirit,

> he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is

> flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.... The wind blows

> where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it

> comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the

> Spirit." The Greek word pneuma is used here for both spirit and wind; it

> meant spirit, wind, breath... The Tibetans use the term "winds" for the

> vital energies, including Kundalini.

>

> Love,

> Dharma

>

Thanks Dharma for this. And also we can only imagine what was lost in

the great library of Alexandria. Diogenes the Roman historian

considered the knowledge of the druids to be comparable to that of the

Persian maji and Indian yogis.

 

love, andrew

[Guest guest]

I picked up a title "A Dazzling Darkness - an anthology of western

mysticism" by Patrick Grant ed. at the local used book store. It's a

title from 1985 - a special edition that was published out of Grand

Rapids - W.B. Eardmans Publishing.

 

Interest stuff in here regarding this topic. But you're right, not alot

of how to. Just a bit - and it all sounds remarkably familiar...

 

Lynne

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrew,

>And also we can only imagine what was lost in

>the great library of Alexandria.

 

The greatest library of the ancient world, they say!

> Diogenes the Roman historian

>considered the knowledge of the druids to be comparable to that of the

>Persian maji and Indian yogis.

 

Yes, and they were much more ancient than the Celts... I use the term

Druids to include the Celtic priests and those of the tradition that they

found in the British Isles and amalgamated with. The Celts only arrived in

England in 400 B.C. and in Ireland in 350 B.C., but Stonehenge (the last

date I saw, from radio-carbon dating, I think) was built from 1900 to 1600

B.C.

 

There are MANY of the old books available, but most haven't been

translated... you have to be able to read the old Celtic. I once had some

books through inter-library loan in both English and the old Celtic... it

looked extremely difficult, looked like many words were abbreviated. That

would take a really expert knowledge of the language.

 

I have some reason to think that there is - or was, earlier this century -

a group still preserving the old tradition, somewhere in Ireland, maybe on

the Isle of Mann.

 

If you're interested in the Druidic stuff, you might enjoy Robert Graves'

_The White Goddess_. It's not easy reading, because it's so _packed_ with

information. But it's a real treasure. Graves was criticized for not

documenting his sources very well, and it was suggested that he simply made

up a lot of what he wrote. But I think he _couldn't_ document his

source... I think he had knowledge from a living secret tradition, just as

Jessie Weston did with the Grail Cult.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dharma wrote:

>

> Dharma <fisher1

>

> Hi Andrew,

>

> >And also we can only imagine what was lost in

> >the great library of Alexandria.

>

> The greatest library of the ancient world, they say!

>

> > Diogenes the Roman historian

> >considered the knowledge of the druids to be comparable to that of the

> >Persian maji and Indian yogis.

>

> Yes, and they were much more ancient than the Celts... I use the term

> Druids to include the Celtic priests and those of the tradition that they

> found in the British Isles and amalgamated with. The Celts only arrived in

> England in 400 B.C. and in Ireland in 350 B.C., but Stonehenge (the last

> date I saw, from radio-carbon dating, I think) was built from 1900 to 1600

> B.C.

>

> There are MANY of the old books available, but most haven't been

> translated... you have to be able to read the old Celtic. I once had some

> books through inter-library loan in both English and the old Celtic... it

> looked extremely difficult, looked like many words were abbreviated. That

> would take a really expert knowledge of the language.

>

> I have some reason to think that there is - or was, earlier this century -

> a group still preserving the old tradition, somewhere in Ireland, maybe on

> the Isle of Mann.

>

> If you're interested in the Druidic stuff, you might enjoy Robert Graves'

> _The White Goddess_. It's not easy reading, because it's so _packed_ with

> information. But it's a real treasure. Graves was criticized for not

> documenting his sources very well, and it was suggested that he simply made

> up a lot of what he wrote. But I think he _couldn't_ document his

> source... I think he had knowledge from a living secret tradition, just as

> Jessie Weston did with the Grail Cult.

>

> Love,

> Dharma

>

I read part of The White Goddess years ago, thanks for reminding me,

it's time I took another go at it. Though I don't know much about it,I

feel a strong connection with this stuff, being of dark complected

Scots extraction on both sides. I posted the story of Fingal and the

salmon of knowledge on the NDS list a while ago. I'll tell it again

here.

 

Fingal was walking along through the woods one day, and he was cold and

hungry and he didn't know much. He comes to a river and on the riverbank

by a pool an old man was sitting by a fire. Fingal sat down and warmed

himself by the fire and said to the old man "I'm hungry, do you have

anything to eat." The old man says "No but there's a salmon in the pool

over there and I can show you how to catch it." So following the old

man's instructions, Fingal catches the salmon and the old man shows him

how to roast it on the fire. And when it looks like it's cooked and the

skin is blistering up and getting brown the old man tells him to give it

a poke with his finger and see if it's done. So Fingal pokes the salmon

and juice bursts out and burns his finger. So he puts his finger to his

mouth. and the instant the juice touches his tongue he falls asleep and

dreams, and in the dream, all the knowledge in the entire world is

revealed to him because the salmon is the salmon of knowledge which has

grown fat on the nuts from the five hazelnut trees that grow in the

deepest place in the ocean, with their roots going down to the very

bottom of the world. Then he wakes up and the old man is gone, so he

eats the salmon and continues on his journey.

 

I read this story somewhere sometime but I don't remember where or when.

Maybe it's in the book you mentioned.

I remember it by retelling it every now and then, so thankyou for

helping me to remember.

 

with love, andrew

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrew:

 

There are many who believe that the Druids migrated from India thousands of

years ago and were the original Aryans. This theory brings us back to the

oldest 'mystical' tradition of the West being Eastern in origin. Recently

an ancient Celtic astrological system has been uncovered which appears to be

the same as the system of Vedic Astrology, a system who's calculations go

back to 6,000 B.C. David Frawley is one of the scholars who strongly

believes (and most likely will have strong facts to back up his theory) in

the connection between the Celtic culture and ancient India. He used to

have information on this subject on his web site www.vedanet.com.

 

Namaste,

Linda

>I read part of The White Goddess years ago, thanks for reminding me,

>it's time I took another go at it. Though I don't know much about it,I

>feel a strong connection with this stuff, being of dark complected

>Scots extraction on both sides. I posted the story of Fingal and the

>salmon of knowledge on the NDS list a while ago. I'll tell it again

>here.

 

..

 

with love, andrew

 

All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness.

Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is

where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal

Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously

arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a.

[Guest guest]

Linda Callanan wrote:

>

> "Linda Callanan" <shastra

>

> Hi Andrew:

>

> There are many who believe that the Druids migrated from India thousands of

> years ago and were the original Aryans. This theory brings us back to the

> oldest 'mystical' tradition of the West being Eastern in origin. Recently

> an ancient Celtic astrological system has been uncovered which appears to be

> the same as the system of Vedic Astrology, a system who's calculations go

> back to 6,000 B.C. David Frawley is one of the scholars who strongly

> believes (and most likely will have strong facts to back up his theory) in

> the connection between the Celtic culture and ancient India. He used to

> have information on this subject on his web site www.vedanet.com.

>

> Namaste,

> Linda

 

In a way it would be more interesting if it could be proved that the

same basic philosophy grew up independantly in different places around

the world; it should be so if it is truly inherent in the human

condition, real in another sense. That shamans and protodruids

everywhere in the earliest human existence should independantly come to

the same realization of oneness. I think it must be so, I don't see how

one can have any kind of functional magic without some notion of the

oneness of existence, which left to develop in its natural course would

have to end up in something resembling advaita vedanta.

 

just rambling, andrew

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrew,

>I read part of The White Goddess years ago, thanks for reminding me,

>it's time I took another go at it. Though I don't know much about it,I

>feel a strong connection with this stuff, being of dark complected

>Scots extraction on both sides.

 

Aren't the dark people supposed to be descended from the earlier settlers

there, certainly before the Celts? My mother's family were Morrisons from

the Isle of Lewis... Some are fair and some quite dark... I have old

photos for generations back, but I can't tell from the photos how dark they

were.

>I posted the story of Fingal and the

>salmon of knowledge on the NDS list a while ago. I'll tell it again

>here.

 

I love the story... the salmon of knowledge. And the hazel is the tree of

wisdom... the letter Coll ©.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Dharma wrote:

> Aren't the dark people supposed to be descended from the earlier settlers

> there, certainly before the Celts? My mother's family were Morrisons from

> the Isle of Lewis... Some are fair and some quite dark... I have old

> photos for generations back, but I can't tell from the photos how dark they

> were.

 

Yes, maybe the original inhabitants. Tacitus called them the Silures.

Members of my family have been mistaken for native american, except

we're much hairier <g>.

I'm taking a break from posting for a while, but I'm still reading

posts.

 

love, andrew

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrew,

>> Aren't the dark people supposed to be descended from the earlier settlers

>> there, certainly before the Celts? My mother's family were Morrisons from

>> the Isle of Lewis... Some are fair and some quite dark... I have old

>> photos for generations back, but I can't tell from the photos how dark they

>> were.

>

>Yes, maybe the original inhabitants. Tacitus called them the Silures.

 

That rings a bell or two. I'd have to find my old notes to be sure, but I

think the "Silurians" were associated with one of those legends about a

village or island that sank benath the sea... out to the West, I think, as

all those magic/sunken islands were. Also I recall there's a child's

"nonsense" rhyme that includes "silly silly" or "sili sili"... and

some

question about a connection with the Scilly Isles.

>Members of my family have been mistaken for native american, except

>we're much hairier <g>.

 

One of my uncles used to be mistaken for black when he had a good tan. )

Another uncle's son - and HIS son - have the same coloring. My brother and

I were redheads when little, but that goes back to two

great-grandmothers... and not Morrisons. (Though one was a Campbell. )

 

What you say is very interesting, though... Cayce said the red race came

from Atlantis.

 

Love,

Dharma