Nondual ¿meat?

[Guest guest]

Dear Jan:

 

Lovely ideas, but not all absolutely based on sound reasoning. Many living

creatures represent carbohydrates, not just proteins...and protein chains can

and are broken down by human metabolism...by the action of saliva and enzyme

activity in the stomach and intestines.

 

Although we "digest" heavy red meats rather poorly, we actually do a fine job

with lighter meats, such as those from seafood, insects and nuts, legumes,

etc. Ah...yes, those are proteins, too. We only need a relatively modest

amount of protein to live, but we do need it from some source. A diet based

purely on carbohydrates will lead to diabetes, one based on pure protein will

lead to scurvy...except for the Inuit People, whom you slander and insult by

calling them the derogatory term "Eskimo."

 

Remember, many creatures depend on complex chains of enzymes, bacteria, etc.,

to break down their dietary intake into the final common resulting sugar

molecules. Since it's all going to be "sugar" why then don't we all just eat

pure sugar? As you realize, this would destroy our pancreas and also fail to

deliver all of the essential vitamins and nutrients that the human body

requires.

 

Since we also need a lot of calcium...which comes from bone, shell and parts

of living creatures (one way or another)...even if we are taking vitamins, we

are ingesting calcium derived from living creatures.

 

Absolutism is a failed strategy. There is a middle path. Don't make the

error of always shying away from it.

 

Because we really don't require lots of protein does not mean that we are not

designed in fact, for a reasonable amount of protein from time to time. ))

 

Blessings

Love,

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/20/99 4:32:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

janb writes:

 

<< To me, anyone not having verified things can only

speak on the basis of quote or opinion. BTW, since having been on raw food

only, not having had any cold or flue or any other disease whereas family >>

 

Dear Jan:

 

I agree that fresh fruit and vegetables as fresh as possible insure the best

mix of enzymes and healthful body building components...as a large

proportion, but not necessarily as a "only this" diet.

 

I too, have not had a cold or flu in more than ten years, but had been always

subject to them before. Why? I am not sure. I believe the biggest result

is cleaner air where I reside and less stress.

 

I do consume some meat in modest amounts, lean and carefully selected from

ranch grown animals. My cholesterol and lipids are absolutely in perfect

order according to my Doctor, and he ran test after test several times daily

to determine the accuracy of this. I have absolutely no signs of plaque

build up and I am 45 years of age. My doctor was convinced I was a

vegetarian or fruitarian. But, I am not. I just think right, love animals

and treat them all with respect and dignity.

 

Since my health problems of the last year all are due to a congenital

problem, diet is not much of an issue with that.

 

I should lean out a bit, lose 15 pounds or more and be more active. I had a

bone spur removed from a foot in order to make walking, running, tennis,

hiking, etc., more practical again.

 

I can walk for miles and not have swollen legs. I can avoid walking for

miles and still not get swollen legs. I agree with you that humans are truly

designed for walking and that most people simply do not walk nearly enough,

and that their entire health would be improved, should they not be hit by a

passing motor car.

 

Blessings

Love,

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

Regularly, matters like K., lifestyle and nonduality will turn up. Perhaps

it it useful to look at it from several perspectives:

 

1. Health and energy

 

The idea that protein has to be abundant in one's diet is tenacious. All

animals, adapted to the consumption of protein-rich food are having the

enzyme uricase at their disposal, to eliminate the harmful uric acid, an

unavoidable metabolite of protein digestion. Fact: humans do not have this

enzyme at their disposal and even thousands of years of meat eating did not

change that for the Eskimos. But the adaptation to absence of vitamin C in

their diet has resulted in the ability to synthesize the vitamin in the

gut. Conclusion: humans are not equipped for the digestion of large

quantities of protein, no matter its origin.

 

One can not increase one's life energy; one can only optimize the "free"

part of it. Living very unhealthy means getting ill (due to building up a

deficit) whereas living healthy means plenty of energy for transformation

with the possibility of completing transformations. One class of food just

falls from trees and plants when ripe, made to be eaten so that the seeds

are transported, ready to germinate after having been excreted. Would it be

a coincidence humans can thrive on that food very well ?

 

2. Taking the consequence

 

Some will argue that living and dying are the two sides of one coin and

seeing predators capture a prey, conclude that humans have the same right.

One counter argument is that few humans would be willing to kill a creature

with bare hands and eat it raw, just like predators do. If they can, it

isn't a problem until the +until+ is met. The +until+ has been presented

nicely in the movie "Soylent Green". Indeed, what is the problem of

recycling naturally deceased bodies? Who could possibly object to that? The

dislike for that is one side of the coin and the other is the like for

non-human animal protein. If one still is a believer in the protein-myth,

unwilling to take the experiment but claiming a nondual perspective, it has

to be clear that attachment to a deceased body violates that perspective.

In nature, all deceased bodies are either direct food or recycled into

vegetation which again is used as food for living bodies. So non-violent

consumption of animal protein IS possible and more efficient than feeding

bodies to plants first.

 

3. Love and compassion

>From the perspective of love, any act of killing for food is out of the

question unless no choice is left. If one is convinced not to be the body,

it rather is an act of compassion to feed one's body (which has served its

purpose) to a predator, temporarily unable to capture a prey and I can

vaguely remember a story describing just that. The consequence of the

nondual perspective is that there is only +you+ and its consequence is that

what is seen as "life", are all aspects of only +you+. Is is repeatedly

stated that life is game and the essential rule is: all actions will always

bounce back to +you+. As long as one makes a distinction between the bodies

of a deceased loved one, a deceased pet and a slaughtered chicken, one is

showing attachment to deceased bodies, disliking to eat some but liking to

eat others although from a nutritious perspective there isn't a difference.

Or attachment to beliefs like the protein-myth; experiential evidence has

been the only "meat" for this one As any action, arguably violating the

nondual perspective, will bounce back to +you+, it could mean "heavy

weather" until these inconsistencies are resolved... Because, resolving ALL

inconsistencies is synonymous with completion of transformations. Which

leave as the last remark that learning and resolving from the perspective

of love is far easier than from deductive reasoning

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

There are quite a lot of fruitarians and raw food vegans; their basic

intake is carbs and there are even cases where diabetes was cured by it. I

have been on a mainly carbs diet for over 30 years, the last 10 on raw food

only, mainly fruits. If this was the only case, there could be the

suspicion of an exception but there are many cases. Regarding the

difference with the so called 'moderation', I can only say that the extreme

has brought the extreme (in a positive way) regarding health and stamina as

well and again this is acknowledged by quite a few. There are even olympic

athletes on this stuff... To me, anyone not having verified things can only

speak on the basis of quote or opinion. BTW, since having been on raw food

only, not having had any cold or flue or any other disease whereas family

members with roughly the same (bad) genetic make-up are suffering from "the

usual"... New Scientist of 13 November is dedicating an article to the

phenomenon that the Pima Indians have a rather high incidence of diabetes.

Related to that is muscle degeneration thanks to sedentary lifestyle. One

of the consequences is that the body becomes obese and isn't able to take

up glucose well, so more insulin is produced, leading to increased

insensivity of muscles to insulin and the cycle is completed. The human

body is hard wired for walking as the leg-muscles are the most voluminous

and powerful ones. Trained muscles can store glycogen remarkably well; my

legs will swell like balloons when even a day without the "usual" speedwalk

of 10...15 miles

 

Jan

 

On 11/20/99 at 6:50 PM ZEN2WRK wrote:

>ZEN2WRK

>

>Dear Jan:

>

>Lovely ideas, but not all absolutely based on sound reasoning. Many

living

>creatures represent carbohydrates, not just proteins...and protein chains

can

>and are broken down by human metabolism...by the action of saliva and

enzyme

>activity in the stomach and intestines.

>

>Although we "digest" heavy red meats rather poorly, we actually do a fine

job

>with lighter meats, such as those from seafood, insects and nuts, legumes,

>etc. Ah...yes, those are proteins, too. We only need a relatively modest

>amount of protein to live, but we do need it from some source. A diet

based

>purely on carbohydrates will lead to diabetes, one based on pure protein

will

>lead to scurvy...except for the Inuit People, whom you slander and insult

by

>calling them the derogatory term "Eskimo."

>

>Remember, many creatures depend on complex chains of enzymes, bacteria,

etc.,

>to break down their dietary intake into the final common resulting sugar

>molecules. Since it's all going to be "sugar" why then don't we all just

eat

>pure sugar? As you realize, this would destroy our pancreas and also fail

to

>deliver all of the essential vitamins and nutrients that the human body

>requires.

>

>Since we also need a lot of calcium...which comes from bone, shell and

parts

>of living creatures (one way or another)...even if we are taking vitamins,

we

>are ingesting calcium derived from living creatures.

>

>Absolutism is a failed strategy. There is a middle path. Don't make the

>error of always shying away from it.

>

>Because we really don't require lots of protein does not mean that we are

not

>designed in fact, for a reasonable amount of protein from time to time.

))

>

>Blessings

>Love,

>

>Zenbob

>

>>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights,

perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside

back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than

the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of

Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is

Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality

of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge,

spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to

a.

[Guest guest]

On 11/20/99 at 7:44 PM ZEN2WRK wrote:

>

>In a message dated 11/20/99 4:32:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>janb writes:

>

><< To me, anyone not having verified things can only

> speak on the basis of quote or opinion. BTW, since having been on raw

food

> only, not having had any cold or flue or any other disease whereas family

>>

>

>Dear Jan:

>

>I agree that fresh fruit and vegetables as fresh as possible insure the

best

>mix of enzymes and healthful body building components...as a large

>proportion, but not necessarily as a "only this" diet.

 

For what reason?

>I too, have not had a cold or flu in more than ten years, but had been

always

>subject to them before. Why? I am not sure. I believe the biggest

result

>is cleaner air where I reside and less stress.

 

I have been without stress for some 30 years and have been living in nice,

rural areas but that didn't prevent the usual cold and flue. It was

explained by onlookers because I never dressed up for winter conditions,

wearing summer cloths irrespective of seasons, never wearing coats, shawls

or closed shoes. Only changing to fruits meant the end of those diseases.

Nevertheless, the colds and flues weren't bad - it meant resting a week or

so which was pleasant.

>I do consume some meat in modest amounts, lean and carefully selected from

>ranch grown animals. My cholesterol and lipids are absolutely in perfect

>order according to my Doctor, and he ran test after test several times

daily

>to determine the accuracy of this. I have absolutely no signs of plaque

>build up and I am 45 years of age. My doctor was convinced I was a

>vegetarian or fruitarian. But, I am not. I just think right, love

animals

>and treat them all with respect and dignity.

 

Did you ever take the experiment to cut out animal food? Anything obtained

from animal food can be obtained from vegetable sources and the usual

debate on vitamin B12 can be avoided by consuming it in tablet form. The

reverse, cutting out vegetable food isn't recommended: feeding on meat to

heart's content will bring about death faster than fasting, it has been a

"humane" form of capital punishment somewhere.

>Since my health problems of the last year all are due to a congenital

>problem, diet is not much of an issue with that.

 

Considering the ordeal from members of the family, my body could be "in"

for almost anything...

>I should lean out a bit, lose 15 pounds or more and be more active. I had

a

>bone spur removed from a foot in order to make walking, running, tennis,

>hiking, etc., more practical again.

 

The Germans have invented a great euphemism for overweight,

"Wohlfuelgewicht" which could be translated as "any weight at which you are

feeling fine". More practicable is to measure performance as a function of

weight and unless one has to make a living with competitive sports, it

appears that there is a range where performance is relatively stable.

>I can walk for miles and not have swollen legs. I can avoid walking for

>miles and still not get swollen legs. I agree with you that humans are

truly

>designed for walking and that most people simply do not walk nearly

enough,

>and that their entire health would be improved, should they not be hit by

a

>passing motor car.

>

>Blessings

>Love,

>

>Zenbob

 

Going 10..15 miles daily is something most contemporaries here are

incapable of and my definition of speedwalking is overtaking everyone not

on wheels or running, irrespective of age. With such an energy expenditure,

the muscles have become so accustomed to take up glucose that it even will

happen for a short time when not exercising, as a kind of precaution; after

a few days not walking or hiking things get back to normal. Yet the daily

intake of calories is always under 1200 and this doesn't give rise to

looking like skinman bones. Going an occasional 60 miles at one stroke

wouldn't be a problem as most islanders here can do that; there is the

tradition of the yearly pilgrimage to the (black) virgin of Candelaria. It

has to held on foot from the location where one is living and for some that

is over 60 miles, not on a flat road but through the mountains...

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

At 04:31 AM 11/21/99 +0000, Jan Barendrecht wrote:

>looking like skinman bones. Going an occasional 60 miles at one stroke

>wouldn't be a problem as most islanders here can do that; there is the

>tradition of the yearly pilgrimage to the (black) virgin of Candelaria. It

>has to held on foot from the location where one is living and for some that

>is over 60 miles, not on a flat road but through the mountains...

 

Hey Jan,

 

Where do you live?

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

On 11/21/99 at 1:29 AM Greg Goode wrote:

[...]

>Hey Jan,

>

>Where do you live?

>

>--Greg

 

Hi Greg,

 

I'm living at Tenerife, one of the Canary Islands. The picture shows the

location on the globe and it also shows the origins of the small Canarian

bananas (the Himalayan variety traveled from the Canaries to the

Caribbean). The Canaries are nicknamed islas afortunadas (happy islands)

and islands of eternal spring.

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/20/99 9:13:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,

janb writes:

 

<< Did you ever take the experiment to cut out animal food? Anything obtained

from animal food can be obtained from vegetable sources and the usual

debate on vitamin B12 can be avoided by consuming it in tablet form. The

reverse, cutting out vegetable food isn't recommended: feeding on meat to

heart's content will bring about death faster than fasting, it has been a

"humane" form of capital punishment somewhere.

>>

Repeatedly and at several different phases of my life. I get very sick and

do not function well without meat. I have discussed this before. Actually,

Jan, there are many groups of nearly total meat eaters that survive quite

well. The longest lived people in the world actually have diets rich in

grains, meat (lamb) and yogurt. I love yogurt. I enjoy lamb and breads,

too. Maybe I will live a long time!

 

Pure vegetarians do not statistically show up as the healthiest or longest

lived group worldwide. People who avoid a diet heavy in meats live longer,

but those who eat no meat do not live as long.

So, perhaps we should study these actuarials more closely.

 

Blessings

 

Zenbob

[Guest guest]

On 11/22/99 at 9:57 PM ZEN2WRK wrote:

>ZEN2WRK

>

>In a message dated 11/20/99 9:13:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,

>janb writes:

>

><< Did you ever take the experiment to cut out animal food?

Anything obtained

> from animal food can be obtained from vegetable sources and

the usual

> debate on vitamin B12 can be avoided by consuming it in

tablet form. The

> reverse, cutting out vegetable food isn't recommended:

feeding on meat to

> heart's content will bring about death faster than fasting,

it has been a

> "humane" form of capital punishment somewhere.

> >>

>Repeatedly and at several different phases of my life. I get

very sick and

>do not function well without meat. I have discussed this

before. Actually,

>Jan, there are many groups of nearly total meat eaters that

survive quite

>well. The longest lived people in the world actually have

diets rich in

>grains, meat (lamb) and yogurt. I love yogurt. I enjoy lamb

and breads,

>too. Maybe I will live a long time!

 

Interesting. Because regarding constituents there is

absolutely nothing exclusively present in meat or in any

animal product.

>Pure vegetarians do not statistically show up as the

healthiest or longest

>lived group worldwide. People who avoid a diet heavy in

meats live longer,

>but those who eat no meat do not live as long.

>So, perhaps we should study these actuarials more closely.

>

>Blessings

>

>Zenbob

 

Statistics are for averagers. I vagauely remember one of the

world's oldest, an Indonesian man, is living on fruits and

veggies. He'll keep out of the statistics, being *excentric*.

Stress is another factor that can't be caught by statistics

and neither can exercise. Apart from that I can construct a

vegetarian diet that *on paper* is healthy but will drain

energy and make sick to the point of needing help. And last

but not least, there are junkfood vegetarians as well and

vegetarian junkfood is often is much more processed (read

unhealthy) than MacD's products. So anyone merely laying

animals on one side and veggies on the other side of the

balance did not "get" it; no problem, AFAIC end of thread.

 

Jan