Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 > > a question for you: if *you* were the one who had to keep animals >trapped > > from birth in overcrowded, unnatural confinements, in desperate >conditions, > > doomed to be slaughtered, and if *you* were the one who had to somehow >kill > > the living, thinking, feeling animal, to provide yourself with a >mouthful of > > flesh, would you still choose to eat meat? >I'll answer that. > >If I made my living raising & slaughtering animals, >I'd most likely eat them too... > to whom it may concern, sorry, i didn't make the question clear. i didn't mean "if you made your living raising and slaughtering animals, would you eat meat" ... what i meant to ask was "if you had to slaughter an animal yourself before you ate it, would you still eat meat?" matt L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Matt Lillie wrote: > to whom it may concern, > sorry, i didn't make the question clear. i didn't mean "if you made your > living raising and slaughtering animals, would you eat meat" ... what i > meant to ask was "if you had to slaughter an animal yourself before you ate > it, would you still eat meat?" > > matt L Hello Matt L, I do find that the fruits and vegetables that i grow in my garden to have more taste than the ones i buy in the super market. Maybe its because i fell in love with my garden. Same goes for meat or any substance that i come to eat or drink. The closer the human contact in love and compassion between the substance i will take, in all its chain from birth to death, the better the food will taste to my mouth. I have a flower plant at home that has been loosing a few leaves a day, and an aunt that is dying from cancer. And sometimes it makes me feel real strange, that the plant dying makes me as sad as my aunt dying. I do love deeply and equally all forms of life. And this equal part i do sometimes find strange. Each time i breath i slaughter something and something is created, I just find this process my greatest lesson in living. Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 In a message dated 11/28/99 7:30:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, carrea writes: << Each time i breath i slaughter something and something is created, I just find this process my greatest lesson in living. >> Dearest Antoine: As always you express eloquently the innermost feelings of my heart without the impediment of complexity. Many thanks. Love, Blessings, Zenbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Antoine wrote: > Each time i breath i slaughter something and > something is created, I just find this process my greatest lesson in > living. Beautiful... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 In a message dated 11/28/1999 8:40:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, kvy9 writes: << Unless the "I" dies, the preta loka show just continues For lovers this must be a hard nut to crack... Jan >> "I" dies more than once :-) This is very cute for me Jan, Annette was made A-nut as a child.. But the child within me has both died and plays on, the emotional, the mental, the Soul, each time dies again. Perhaps not all in one life, perhaps all in one life, but it is impossible to do this as one death, no one who has truly awoken would, and i won't debate this, because it is undebatable, it is experienced, like the Fire of the Sun, or the fire on your finger it is felt, like studying blue and pink electromagnetic waves, I may study but I will not experience fully until I see the colors. But it is like the Sun, all life comes from the Sun... .... from an anonymous German author on the "Golden Way" every plant, each perennial flower, each lion who steps, and bull who charges, each organic and verdant blade of grass, each organic and inorganic thing comes from the Sun. There is no flame that dances, no light that shines, no avalanche to slide, nor volcanoe to erupt, no lightening to flash, nor storm to thunder, which does not originate in the Sun. No snake which crawls and no Eagle which flies [Esoteric meanings intended], no mountain which rises, nor ocean deep, which does not originate in the Sun." So, I am the Sun, we are all the Sun and do i not love the Sun as myself? What am i without the Sun? Your insight at times though, still makes me breathless with wonder :-) L*L*L Anut van der Zon :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 > Dearest Antoine: > > As always you express eloquently the innermost feelings of my heart without > the impediment of complexity. Many thanks. > > Love, > Blessings, > > Zenbob Dearest Zenbob, Complexity pushed to the extreme of day to day life is like softness to my ears. To take an image, like this fire place touching gently with its heat and sounds a comfortable sofa in a mild room lighten with candle light painting dancing shadows on the wall where a window opens, but yet perfectly filters, a cold windy night with a clear sky full of stars. The smoke from the chimney leaving and elliptical trace around the sun as the planet is cyclically rushing away from it, like the little "poucet" going in the woods and leaving little piece of bread behind so he may come back to his home. Complexity of details is very soft to my ear, many thanks. Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 On 11/28/99 at 2:07 PM Matt Lillie wrote: [...] >to whom it may concern, >sorry, i didn't make the question clear. i didn't mean "if you made your >living raising and slaughtering animals, would you eat meat" .... what i >meant to ask was "if you had to slaughter an animal yourself before you ate >it, would you still eat meat?" > >matt L This is a good question indeed. Once I was in Cape Verde, a third world country and there where several high, cylindrical stone walls. Behind the walls were little pigs, about the size of a cocker spaniel when mature. Asking why these pigs were totally invisible from outside, the answer came: "If we look at the pigs, we can't eat them". This doesn't come as a surprise: pigs are as intelligent as dogs with the added benefit, they will shit outside the house without being taught to do so. One Cape Verdian apparently had found that out: when he was running, the pig would run after him like a dog but with its short legs, that was very comical to see. I stopped walking to watch closely; a woman behind me did the same and we both laughed at the unusual sight; at the same time I could sense her confusion and pain in seeing that what is supposed to be a meal actually is an affectionate pet. It has been known in China for long that dog meat has excellent taste but in the West, dog meat isn't eaten although there are so many stray dogs that some are killed and used for pet food. In times of hunger, one will not eat one's pet but prefer mice and rats instead and share them with the pet... Yet I've heard (first world) children say they couldn't see an animal in a cow, only a walking steak and to them killing a cow wouldn't be a problem; they are from the generation that is thinking meat, milk, eggs, honey, beeswax etc. are just products from the factory; the generation that thinks it is "free, because money buys everything" and Ahimsa is but a sentimental attachment... Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Hello Jan, "Mental food" would be language and language is felt as long as there is an other, even if the other cell is identical. The gentle folly of the fool may be antother way of allowing the body(ies) to vanish like fog, yet not changing anything in the way dog roses, peanuts and cucumbers live or breath. Antoine > Wouldn't the greatest lesson come when the body finally loses > its battle from birth on, with unicellular life, the most > resilient life form in the universe, clear thinking and > control start to fail, and one is left (once again) at the > mercy of one's identifications and the "mental food" one has > digested during life, manifesting for Tibetan Buddhists as > "Bardo"? Or the preta-loka for the Hindus... Who would be > playing the hungry ghosts? Dog roses, peanuts and cucumbers? > > Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 "Mental food" is consisting of a mix of sense-impressions and thoughts regarding them (not necessarily in language); the ones that are "played most often" are predominant. The mix clings to the "I" thought (which isn't in language) like a child to its mother, like a dog to its master, like chewing gum to a shoe. Unless the "I" dies, the preta loka show just continues For lovers this must be a hard nut to crack... Jan On 11/28/99 at 6:43 PM Antoine wrote: >Antoine <carrea > >Hello Jan, > >"Mental food" would be language and language is felt as long as there is >an other, even if the other cell is identical. The gentle folly of the >fool may be antother way of allowing the body(ies) to vanish like fog, >yet not changing anything in the way dog roses, peanuts and cucumbers >live or breath. > >Antoine > >> Wouldn't the greatest lesson come when the body finally loses >> its battle from birth on, with unicellular life, the most >> resilient life form in the universe, clear thinking and >> control start to fail, and one is left (once again) at the >> mercy of one's identifications and the "mental food" one has >> digested during life, manifesting for Tibetan Buddhists as >> "Bardo"? Or the preta-loka for the Hindus... Who would be >> playing the hungry ghosts? Dog roses, peanuts and cucumbers? >> >> Jan > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> > >----------------------------- ---------- >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Jan Barendrecht wrote: > Unless the "I" dies, the preta loka show just > continues For lovers this must be a hard nut to crack... Just as hard for dry, icy cold 'non-lovers', I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 1999 Report Share Posted November 28, 1999 Hello again Jan, May I ask why a nut should be harder to crack for some and not others? One must desire what is within the nut to want to crack it, yet we are all already in it. The nut rolls on... Antoine Jan Barendrecht wrote: > "Mental food" is consisting of a mix of sense-impressions and > thoughts regarding them (not necessarily in language); the > ones that are "played most often" are predominant. The mix > clings to the "I" thought (which isn't in language) like a > child to its mother, like a dog to its master, like chewing > gum to a shoe. Unless the "I" dies, the preta loka show just > continues For lovers this must be a hard nut to crack... > > Jan > > On 11/28/99 at 6:43 PM Antoine wrote: > > >Antoine <carrea > > > >Hello Jan, > > > >"Mental food" would be language and language is felt as long > as there is > >an other, even if the other cell is identical. The gentle > folly of the > >fool may be antother way of allowing the body(ies) to vanish > like fog, > >yet not changing anything in the way dog roses, peanuts and > cucumbers > >live or breath. > > > >Antoine > > > >> Wouldn't the greatest lesson come when the body finally > loses > >> its battle from birth on, with unicellular life, the most > >> resilient life form in the universe, clear thinking and > >> control start to fail, and one is left (once again) at the > >> mercy of one's identifications and the "mental food" one > has > >> digested during life, manifesting for Tibetan Buddhists as > >> "Bardo"? Or the preta-loka for the Hindus... Who would be > >> playing the hungry ghosts? Dog roses, peanuts and > cucumbers? > >> > >> Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 1999 Report Share Posted November 29, 1999 On 11/28/99 at 8:58 PM Antoine wrote: >Antoine <carrea > >Hello again Jan, > >May I ask why a nut should be harder to crack for some and not others? >One must desire what is within the nut to want to crack it, yet we are >all already in it. The nut rolls on... > >Antoine For Ramakrishna this nut was impossible to crack; nothing is so intoxicating as love. Bhakti and Sufism are paths of love; both paths have followers, refusing to merge in love or as the Sufis say, to be annihilated in the Beloved. Both paths have followers, having merged/dissolved in love, having become love itself, like the Sufi Ibn El Arabi and the Bhakta Ramanuja. However, even in classical yoga this dilemma is known: Purohit Swami comments on (I, 17) : [...] "The yogi is attached to his personal God, prides himself in being his devotee, his son, dedicates his life to him, sings his glory, enjoys his sense of duality, refuses to merge himself into his God, refuses to become God. God initiates him into this last stage, when the yogi says: 'I am spirit, the personal Self is the impersonal Self', leaves all for God, lives there for ever" [...]. This choice or a desire cannot arise in a path of unconditional surrender: the path ends when nothing is left to to surrender; the paradoxical effort to be without effort comes to a halt when the "I" has died and the sense of individuality has left. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1999 Report Share Posted November 30, 1999 Jan Barendrecht wrote: > >Hello again Jan, > > > >May I ask why a nut should be harder to crack for some and > not others? > For Ramakrishna this nut was impossible to crack; nothing is > so intoxicating as love. Bhakti and Sufism are paths of love; > both paths have followers, refusing to merge in love or as the > Sufis say, to be annihilated in the Beloved. Both paths have > followers, having merged/dissolved in love, having become love > itself, like the Sufi Ibn El Arabi and the Bhakta Ramanuja. > However, even in classical yoga this dilemma is known: > > Purohit Swami comments on (I, 17) : [...] "The yogi is > attached to his personal God, prides himself in being his > devotee, his son, dedicates his life to him, sings his glory, > enjoys his sense of duality, refuses to merge himself into his > God, refuses to become God. God initiates him into this last > stage, when the yogi says: 'I am spirit, the personal Self is > the impersonal Self', leaves all for God, lives there for > ever" [...]. > > This choice or a desire cannot arise in a path of > unconditional surrender: the path ends when nothing is left to > to surrender; the paradoxical effort to be without effort > comes to a halt when the "I" has died and the sense of > individuality has left. Thank you for your answer Jan, If I "understand" correctly, as much as words may apply here, it is a bit like a dreamer in a dream where the images in his dream define him as dreamer. The images of the dream will always remain followers of the dreamer to which they give substance as Dreamer. The Dreamer comes to die when the dream comes to stop looking for a dreamer. So my question may change to why should there be more than one dream, dreaming? In the sense of why should it be harder for some than others? Or is there even a dream? A picture of a nut among many: http://pages.infinit.net/carrea/physics/stars.jpg Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 1999 Report Share Posted November 30, 1999 On 11/30/99 at 11:47 AM Antoine wrote: [...] >Thank you for your answer Jan, You're welcome.. >If I "understand" correctly, as much as words may apply here, it is a >bit like a dreamer in a dream where the images in his dream define him >as dreamer. The images of the dream will always remain followers of the >dreamer to which they give substance as Dreamer. The Dreamer comes to >die when the dream comes to stop looking for a dreamer. > > So my question may change to why should there be more than one dream, >dreaming? In the sense of why should it be harder for some than others? >Or is there even a dream? > >A picture of a nut among many: >http://pages.infinit.net/carrea/physics/stars.jpg > >Antoine There is neither a dream nor a dreamer. There is no one to wake up from a dream that doesn't exist. But that is something "I" cannot conceive. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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