What's really happen when we die?

[Guest guest]

Dear Sangha,

 

I understood about Non-eternality (Anicca) of things, that make me not

affraid of death. As i'm not attain Enlightenment yet, i still don't know

what really happen when i die.

According to my understanding and my intellectual, i do believe there is

other worlds, reincarnation and etc. But i realise that i don't fully

believe it yet, because i can't remember my experience of death.

Please tell me your opinion, what happen if i kill myself with motivation;

want to know what happen after die?

Thanks.

 

In Curious,

Nasir

[Guest guest]

On 11/30/99 at 12:58 PM Nasir Chang wrote:

>Dear Sangha,

>

>I understood about Non-eternality (Anicca) of things, that

make me not

>affraid of death. As i'm not attain Enlightenment yet, i

still don't know

>what really happen when i die.

 

Enlightenment isn't to be attained; it has been forgotten so

it is something that has to be recognized. This is difficult

in modern society because of the enormous sensory overload

from birth on whereas it is easy in "primitive" society where

life has its natural pauses, enabling the recognition to be

spontaneous.

>According to my understanding and my intellectual, i do

believe there is

>other worlds, reincarnation and etc. But i realise that i

don't fully

>believe it yet, because i can't remember my experience of

death.

>Please tell me your opinion, what happen if i kill myself

with motivation;

>want to know what happen after die?

>Thanks.

>

>In Curious,

>Nasir

 

There is a certain likeness between "life when alive" and

"life when dead"; in both cases, one is driven by desires,

fears and tendencies. The difference is that when "alive" one

thinks to be the master of fate whereas "dead" one knows to be

powerless, so fear will dominate, because there appears to be

no escape from the "ghosts of the mind" (which aren't

recognized as such). When fear exceeds a certain threshold, a

trauma is caused so it doesn't come as surprise hardly anyone

still knows, not to be born a blank. Another reason is that a

newborn is forced to identify with all those spontaneous

arising bodily feelings like hunger etc. The power of all

these "crude" feelings will soon start to swamp the volatile

memory from "before" and the sensory overload will erase the

rest. This memory is more likely to be maintained when parents

recognize the onset of feelings in a newborn, acting

accordingly so that the identifications with body don't get

strong; this also can prevent one's real nature from being

forgotten or being covered under sensory "garbage" completely.

A scenario, much more likely in a "primitive" culture than in

the Western world.

 

Any motivation to kill oneself is likely to be selfish;

because deep inside one knows this, it will show up as

something rather unpleasant. So it is rightly, strongly

advised against in all religions. What doesn't have "bad"

consequences is sacrifice. When the Spanish invaders had

conquered one of the local rulers of Tenerife by treason and

had captured him, he could have saved his life by betraying

the members of his family and his army. Knowing he would

likely to be killed after all, he jumped from a high cliff.

 

Jan

[Guest guest]

Nasir Chang wrote:

> Dear Sangha,

>

> I understood about Non-eternality (Anicca) of things, that make me not

> affraid of death. As i'm not attain Enlightenment yet, i still don't know

> what really happen when i die.

> According to my understanding and my intellectual, i do believe there is

> other worlds, reincarnation and etc. But i realise that i don't fully

> believe it yet, because i can't remember my experience of death.

> Please tell me your opinion, what happen if i kill myself with motivation;

> want to know what happen after die?

> Thanks.

>

> In Curious,

> Nasir

 

Hello Nasir,

 

It is an interesting question that you bring up,

 

I can only guess here, i guess we only find after we die the source of

what motivate us to die. May i ask you what motivates you in dying? I

personally find that finding out what motivates me in living is as much

hard to find out.

 

Curious also,

 

Antoine

[Guest guest]

Hello Nasir,

>I understood about Non-eternality (Anicca) of things, that make me not

>affraid of death. As i'm not attain Enlightenment yet, i still don't know

>what really happen when i die.

 

You already know in your meditation what it is like to exist without the

physical body... and also without the emotional body and the mental body.

You have some experience of existing without being physical, emotional, or

intellectual. Thus you do know something about what it will be like. As

you get more experience on those higher levels, you'll become more

accustomed to them and more comfortable. You can see that dying might

bring a big surprise to people who have never meditated, but I don't think

it will for you.

 

It's a good thing to know about death, both for your own sake and because

you may be able to help others. It's a wonderful thing to be able to

comfort and reassure someone who is dying.

 

The Tibetans have a book about dying, the _Bardo Thodol_. There is a

translation into English by Lama Dawa Samdup, edited by W.Y. Evans-Wentz,

under the title, _The Tibetan Book of the Dead_. I have read that when a

Tibetan is dying, a lama sits beside him and reads the _Bardo_, guiding him

through the process. If a lama is not available, it is permissible for

anyone who can read or recite the _Bardo_ to do so for the dying person.

The reading is continued after death, and the text informs the person that

he is now truly dead, and not in the body. It guides him toward the Clear

Light... and then, in case he didn't make it, the book guides him toward

the next best choice. And so on.

 

However, the book is much more than it might seem. It is a text on the

various planes/ levels/ states of consciousness. Thus it is used by

students learning meditation on the inner planes. It is a guide to death

and rebirth while still in the body. This is the true esoteric teaching on

death.

 

In Evans-Wentz' book, _Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines_, there is a

translation (with commentary) of "The Yoga of the Six Doctrines." One of

these is "The Doctrine [or Yoga] of the After-Death State," in which there

are excerpts from the _Bardo Thodol_; it is written for lamas and students.

Evans-Wentz compares the study of the six yogas with the Hindu Kundalini

Yoga.

 

Lama Govinda, in _Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism_, says:

>.... In the second stage [of discipleship], this intuitive attitude is

>transformed into understanding through reason; while in the third stage,

>the disciple's intuitive feeling as well as intellectual understanding are

>transformed into living reality through direct experience. Thus

>intellectual conviction grows into spiritual certainty, into a knowing in

>which the knower is _one_ with the known.

> This is the high spiritual state vouchsafed by the teachings set forth

>in the _Bardo Thodol_. Thereby the initiated disciple attains dominion

>over the realm of death, and, being able to perceive death's illusory

>nature, is freed from fear. For in the process of dying we pass through

>the same stages which are experienced in the higher states of meditation.

>Already Plutarch said: 'At the moment of death the soul experiences the

>same as those who are initiated into the great mysteries.'

> The _Bardo Thodol_ is such a book of initiation into one of those

>Great Mysteries. Under the guise of death it reveals to the initiate the

>secret of life. He must go through the experience of death, in order to

>gain liberation within himself. He must die to his past and to his ego,

>before he can be admitted into the community of the Enlightened Ones. Only

>he who looks upon every moment of his life as if it were his last, and

>values it accordingly, can understand the significance of the _Bardo

>Thodol_ as a vade-mecum for initiates, a guide for the sadhaka, an

>incomparable inspiration for the unfoldment of inner vision. Herein

>consists for us the value of this work, one of the oldest scriptures in

>Tibetan language, which is looked upon as the spiritual testament of

>Padmasambhava. It contains the fundamental outlines of all later mandalas

>or systems of creative visualization. For this reason we have made the

>_Bardo Thodol_ the basis of our observations.

 

Now, back to your question: what happens after death? The best source I

know on this is a book under the name of Stewart Edward White. He wrote

two books about his wife, Betty, and her 20 years of work with spiritual

guides. She learned to lie down and go into a deep state of meditation

while still being able to speak... or allow a guide to speak through her.

So her husband was able to sit beside her and record everything that was

said. It was these records, as well as his experiences with her, from

which he wrote the two books, and many people consider them a wonderful

guide to spiritual growth. As he was finishing the second one, she

suddenly became ill and died. Half an hour later she was with him so

strongly that he could never doubt it. She is the one person whose death

was not mentioned in _Who's Who in America_ ... the editors read his final

chapter about her death and refused to say that she was dead.

 

Six months later he was visiting friends, and the wife was a well-known

trance medium... they had also published books. They wanted to talk to

Betty, and he acquiesced. She immediately said that she was going to

dictate a book... and that THIS was what they had been working together

for, for those 20 years. It would be a book about what the world is like

from her perspective. She said that this book would be much more popular

than the first two and that scientists would write to him... and it was

so. It's quite a book... she dictated a chapter an evening, and afterward

she answered questions from them... questions as "silly" as, "Do you eat?"

or "What about animals after death?"

 

She began by saying that there is only one universe and they were living in

the same universe. She said the difference is that for us in the body the

universe is obstructed... there is so much that we don't see and hear and

feel. But for her it was unobstructed... she had the freedom of the

universe. The book was named _The Unobstructed Universe_.

 

Speaking about death, she said that when it is known that someone is dying,

there is always a guide waiting to help him. But when there's an accident

or very sudden death, there could be a brief lapse before a guide arrives.

She talked about the various kinds of help that might be needed. She said

some people just have a hard time believing that they are dead, that

they've left the body for good. It may take some time for someone who had

been old and/or sick to understand that he is no longer old or sick... and

until then, he will still perceive himself that way. She said sometimes

someone needs a period of sleep or rest. She tells many stories about this

work with the newly arriving, and it's very interesting. But most of the

book is about what the world is like when it's unobstructed by being in

incarnation. Every time I've read it, I've understood more of what she was

saying.

>According to my understanding and my intellectual, i do believe there is

>other worlds, reincarnation and etc. But i realise that i don't fully

>believe it yet, because i can't remember my experience of death.

>Please tell me your opinion, what happen if i kill myself with motivation;

>want to know what happen after die?

 

Betty said that the psychological state we are in just before death is the

same state we are in just after death. And a person who commits suicide is

usually completely turned against life... so he finds himself in his new

bodiless state, STILL completely turned against life and negative. This

requires a great deal of help... and sometimes it's almost impossible to

even reach the person. My conclusion is that no matter how bad things are,

there's always a better solution than suicide. Death is not going to end

life... it's only going to put the person in an even worse situation than

he's already in. (I don't view terminally ill people in the same way,

but I don't recall what she said about that.)

 

I checked on these books. Barnes & Noble lists the first two as available,

and you can order them on-line. They are _The Betty Book_ and _Across the

Unknown_. But the major work, _The Unobstructed Universe_, is out of print

just now. Amazon Books says they will search for books for you, and Barnes

& Noble actually searched and gave me a list of available second-hand

copies, with a description of their condition and prices... which are

considerably more than an in-print book... the cheapest is $22.95, as I

recall. White wrote several more books after that, but they are not

available, except perhaps in libraries.

 

Other books by White are in print, but they are not on the same topic.

White was independently wealthy, and he travelled widely and then wrote

books about his travels... some of those books are apparently still

popular.

 

I did find a web-site devoted to the "teachings" in these books. There's a

series of articles about the work as a whole. And there's a

chapter-by-chapter capsule summary of _The Unobstructed Universe_. These

"chapters" are quite short and give the main points of the chapters, with

some quotes from the book... it looks like a good job for what it is, but

very short. Not a substitute for the book. Here's the site:

 

http://www.znet.com/~normanl/white1.htm

 

Re. suicide, I found some confirmation in a book by Hans Holzer (forget the

title) on his ghost-busting work. There are a couple of fairly recent

books by him on that subject available now... one may be a rewrite of the

older book.

 

Whenever he was called in on a serious case of a ghost making problems, he

would go and take with him a good trance medium... often it was Sybil

Leek, the English witch and high priestess of the Horsa Coven. He could

then talk to the ghost through the medium.

 

He regarded these ghosts as poor souls who were really mixed up... or they

wouldn't be hanging around the places where they had lived... or died. He

said they were often suicides, but sometimes people who had died in very

traumatic ways. Sometimes he had to convinve them that they were really

dead, not in the body... they were that confused. Then he would suggest

that they look for the light... and go into the light. He said many of

them, the suicides especially, were hanging around because they felt that

they must do something... protect a house, help someone, maybe do

something good to make them feel less guilty. So what he did was mostly

psychological and spiritual counselling, leading them to give up holding

onto the past and go on... into the light.

 

Love and blessings,

Dharma