Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Hi Gregji - What did the New Yorker article have to say (missed that one :-)? Thanks for your vote of confidence - I might indeed have a "lot to say" on this. Okay, I'll give it a try. By the way, the dynamics your friend discussed with you ring true to me. >From here, self-esteem seems ultimately as a spiritual reality. It is the feeling of no lack of worth, no lack of significance to one's being. Ultimately, self-esteem doesn't depend on anything, so people using props such as their work, money, status, relationships, religious affiliation could be viewed as maintaining conditional self-esteem; they are feeling worthy because of something. Unconditional self-esteem is possible, and this possibility suggests to me a "spiritual reality," as worldly conditions fluctuate and can only support conditional esteem. Feeling and knowing one's being as "intrinsically worthy" (expressed positively) or with no sense of any lack (expressed negatively) seems basic to "resiliency" and "self-healing". Conditional factors can't produce what is unconditional, but what is unconditional (self-esteem from "being itself") doesn't preclude the former (feeling good about one's work, spouse, etc.) By the way, self-esteem doesn't make a person live as if they were a self-sufficient island, nor does it make a person feel dependent on others. It doesn't make a person feel any particular thing, rather it's a "coming from a wholeness within 'things as they are'" - thus allowing acceptance of human limitations, and enabling self-validation of one's actual experience with concomitent non-reliance on others to define oneself. Most likely, such a person will be able to give and receive caring openly, yet not be dependent on receiving caring to "feel all right". A person with authentic self-esteem is thus less easily manipulated than some, and more likely to value authenticity in others than many. Self-esteem improves rather than diminishes relatedness, as self-esteem means the other won't be blamed for one's feeling states, one won't need to control the other as one's "completion" or "source of well-being," etc. When people say the concern with self-esteem is part of the "me" generation, they are referring to narcissistic props for self-esteem, not genuine self-esteem. Self-esteem encourages love, as in the Biblical injunction to "love thy neighbor as thyself". How does a therapy client whose past is filled with memories of abuse and negative messages about self generate a positive sense of self-esteem in the present? My view is that this is possible because positive self-worth arises from and as presentness. Individuals have different ways of "tapping into this," often fluctuate, feeling able to "tap into it" one day, but not the next. This is life. A sensitive issue that I've dealt with related to this question is that many clients in therapy will choose to use psychoactive medication. Although this seems to make self-esteem "depend on something," medication may be viewed as a "useful means" to regulate moods so that the ability to notice present-centered self-esteem and learning to think positively about self and others can develop. In many cases medications eventually need not be relied upon, but in cases where use of medication is protracted, I generally chalk it up to a combination of factors -- with ultimately the client being the one to make the choice of which tools are "working". At the same time, I'm quite aware of living in a culture that is dependency-oriented regarding self-esteem. Reliance on substances that seem to enhance or produce self-esteem is quite congruent with the "quick-fix" mentality and "material orientation to being" that seem to be running rampant in our culture (or am I imagining this?). Rather than learn from sitting with and dealing with feelings of being "not okay," the impulse is to get rid of the feeling and move on as best as possible. Of course, many people involved in spiritual pathwork are leery of psychologists and psychiatrists, seeing overreliance on medication as problematic, as well as psychological attributions about self-esteem as often missing the spiritual boat. Certainly there is validity to this view, although it's not a blanket truism as many seem to imagine. Most therapists I've known do care, many do have spiritual orientations, yet they are equally members of our troubled society as everyone else, influenced by the same cultural forces as all living here are. A case can be made on either side of the medication issue - it's probably best to look at it as depending on each individual's situation, and to look at what's going to be most practically useful for a given person in a given situation. Lovingly, respectfully, and esteemingly yours, Dan > >I think from the psychological-therapeutic aspect of self-esteem, Dan-ji >might have a lot to say. > >Love, > >--Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 At 02:25 PM 1/10/00 -0500, Dan Berkow, PhD wrote: >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > >Hi Gregji - >What did the New Yorker article have to say (missed that one :-)? >Thanks for your vote of confidence - I might indeed >have a "lot to say" on this. Okay, I'll give it a try. >By the way, the dynamics your friend discussed with you >ring true to me. Thanks for your comments, Dan, I'm still reading them. I'll look for the New Yorker article on-line. I've also asked my friend Michael (who's not a member of NDS) to write up something for the list on what he noticed on the self-esteem aspects of these paths. Some hilarious stories, and profound insights! More later. Love, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Accepting that "my" process of life is natural is my unique gift from life itself. Denying that my process of life is natural is a form of non-acceptance of myself and is therefore a rejection of myself. My only fear in life is acceptance of myself. Not accepting that I am enough is at the root of judgment of others and ultimately myself. Self-esteem comes from accepting that I am enough. As long as I reject who I am now, I will continue to live in a state of dependency or want others to be dependent on me. I wll not have self-esteem or the ability to support another's growth. I am learning to trust my own feelings and my own experiences and not give that away to others. My self-esteem...indeed my very life depend on it. Michael ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At 02:25 PM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > >Hi Gregji - >What did the New Yorker article have to say (missed that one :-)? >Thanks for your vote of confidence - I might indeed >have a "lot to say" on this. Okay, I'll give it a try. >By the way, the dynamics your friend discussed with you >ring true to me. > >>From here, self-esteem seems ultimately as a spiritual >reality. It is the feeling of no lack of worth, >no lack of significance to one's being. Ultimately, >self-esteem doesn't depend on anything, so people >using props such as their work, money, status, >relationships, religious affiliation could >be viewed as maintaining conditional self-esteem; >they are feeling worthy because of something. >Unconditional self-esteem is possible, and this >possibility suggests to me a "spiritual reality," >as worldly conditions fluctuate and can only support >conditional esteem. >Feeling and knowing one's being as "intrinsically worthy" >(expressed positively) or with no sense of any lack (expressed negatively) >seems basic to "resiliency" and "self-healing". >Conditional factors can't produce what is unconditional, >but what is unconditional (self-esteem from "being itself") >doesn't preclude the former (feeling good about one's work, >spouse, etc.) > >By the way, self-esteem doesn't make a person live >as if they were a self-sufficient island, nor >does it make a person feel dependent on others. >It doesn't make a person feel any particular thing, >rather it's a "coming from a wholeness within >'things as they are'" - thus allowing >acceptance of human limitations, and enabling >self-validation of one's actual >experience with concomitent non-reliance on others to define >oneself. Most likely, such a person will be able to give >and receive caring openly, yet not be dependent on >receiving caring to "feel all right". A person >with authentic self-esteem is thus less easily >manipulated than some, and more likely to value authenticity >in others than many. > >Self-esteem improves >rather than diminishes relatedness, as self-esteem >means the other won't be blamed for one's feeling >states, one won't need to control the other as one's >"completion" or "source of well-being," etc. >When people say the concern with self-esteem is part >of the "me" generation, they are referring to narcissistic >props for self-esteem, not genuine self-esteem. Self-esteem >encourages love, as in the Biblical injunction to "love thy >neighbor as thyself". > >How does a therapy client whose past is filled >with memories of abuse and negative messages >about self generate a positive sense of self-esteem >in the present? My view is that this is possible >because positive self-worth arises from and as >presentness. Individuals have different ways >of "tapping into this," often fluctuate, >feeling able to "tap into it" one day, but >not the next. This is life. > >A sensitive issue that I've dealt with related to this question >is that many clients in therapy will choose to >use psychoactive medication. Although this seems >to make self-esteem "depend on something," medication >may be viewed as a "useful means" to regulate moods >so that the ability to notice present-centered self-esteem >and learning to think positively about self and others >can develop. In many cases medications eventually >need not be relied upon, but in cases where >use of medication is protracted, I generally chalk it up >to a combination of factors -- with ultimately >the client being the one to make the choice >of which tools are "working". > >At the same time, I'm quite >aware of living in a culture that is dependency-oriented >regarding self-esteem. Reliance on substances that >seem to enhance or produce self-esteem is quite congruent >with the "quick-fix" mentality and "material orientation >to being" that seem to be running rampant in >our culture (or am I imagining this?). Rather than >learn from sitting with and dealing with >feelings of being "not okay," the impulse is >to get rid of the feeling and move on as best >as possible. Of course, many people involved >in spiritual pathwork are leery of psychologists >and psychiatrists, seeing overreliance on medication >as problematic, as well as psychological attributions >about self-esteem as often missing the spiritual >boat. Certainly there is validity to this view, >although it's not a blanket truism as many seem to >imagine. Most therapists I've known do care, many >do have spiritual orientations, yet they are equally >members of our troubled society as everyone else, influenced >by the same cultural forces as all living here are. > >A case can be made on either side of >the medication issue - it's probably best to look at it as >depending on each individual's situation, >and to look at what's going to be most >practically useful for a given person in a given >situation. > >Lovingly, respectfully, and esteemingly yours, >Dan > >> >>I think from the psychological-therapeutic aspect of self-esteem, Dan-ji >>might have a lot to say. >> >>Love, >> >>--Greg > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files and, access them >from anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here for a chance >to win a digital camera. ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/Atbackup ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2000 Report Share Posted January 11, 2000 As a corollary to the worthy observations of Dan, Greg and Michael, I'll posit that the single most stubborn obstacle to enlightenment is the belief that one can't get there! Every single one of us has everything he or she needs but we often project this out into other people. Is there somebody among us who is NOT God? H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2000 Report Share Posted January 11, 2000 Yes, we have always had and always will have all we ever need and all we ever want. By accepting our process of life as a unique gift from life itself, we accept ourselves as we are, and we will trust our feelings and our own processes of life and not give that away to any objects or symbols outside ourselves. Man's search for meaning always ends up back where it began. Asking why is like a dog chasing it's tail. Life is fun....isn't it? Michael At 10:43 AM 1/11/00 EST, you wrote: >Hbarrett47 > >As a corollary to the worthy observations of Dan, Greg and Michael, I'll >posit that the single most stubborn obstacle to enlightenment is the belief >that one can't get there! Every single one of us has everything he or she >needs but we often project this out into other people. Is there somebody >among us who is NOT God? H. > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 This was a beautiful post, Linda. For many women, lumping struggles under "self-esteem issues" does them a great disservice. We are taught, rightly so, to value qualities of acceptance, understanding, seeing the deeper level, forgiveness, selflessness, and the like, especially in ourselves. For me at least, the moment when these attributes become self-destructive can be very, very difficult to spot. Usually I've gone past it before I've noticed. As loving is a natural and precious part of you, being empathic is a gift I was born with. I still have trouble knowing when to say something and when to just release and detach from somebody's behavior that bothers me. But as you pointed out, the whole pickle is God! Thanks for your candor. Love, Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 Hi Holly: It's always so nice to hear from you. As someone who has experienced first hand the pain and loss that comes from a teacher gone 'amok' I have followed this thread with interest. Yes, I would have to say that I did have self-esteem issues but, except for this certain teacher, low self-esteem did not bring into my life great amounts of abuse from others. As I examined my journey I looked at my reaction to many teachings which speak of the need to follow carefully the words and directions of the teacher not only for 'safety' but also to work on the great obstacle known as the 'ego'. No matter how difficult this person's demands were he always seemed to be working within the framework of the 'teachings'. I seem to have a natural bend towards bhakti so within my make up was a personal need to perfect love so often I would simply try to love him more unconditionally. In the end I have to recognize that there were many factors that went into my long term relationship with this person...it is hard to boil it down to one factor. Your observation about a stubborn belief that one can't get there is probably the closet to a single factor. Underlying all of the 'issues' was a belief that I simply could not do it, fortunately the desire to know the 'truth of being' turned out to be stronger than all else. "Is there somebody among us who is not God"? That single question presents one of the biggest challenges to fully healing from an encounter with a negative spiritual teacher. As one moves through the process so much comes to the surface, so many 'red flags' that were ignored but they always seem to be countered by pearls of wisdom and insights that were received. In truth, much of what was shared by this teacher has been used in the healing process. The goal is to move beyond the betrayal into the recognition of the fact that he too, is God, without that knowing the job is simply not done. Last week I was lucky enough to be able to attend a live kirtan with Krishna Das (his cd's are wonderful) and in the course of the evening he mentioned that we can learn good things from bad teachers.... perhaps in the end we must trust that our souls are leading us to truth and that the God in each of us does speak of this truth even if the words are delivered with pain. Linda >Hbarrett47 >As a corollary to the worthy observations of Dan, Greg and Michael, I'll >posit that the single most stubborn obstacle to enlightenment is the belief >that one can't get there! Every single one of us has everything he or she >needs but we often project this out into other people. Is there somebody >among us who is NOT God? H. --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> ------ All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 Beware of anyone who tells you that their way is the only way. Many signs point to the truth and there are many paths one can travel. Let's not get stuck in the mud or rocking back and forth in a rut. Do not be denied your own life process. No one know the way for other people. No one know what will or should happen next. Isn't that wonderful? Michael At 08:26 AM 1/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >"Linda Callanan" <shastra > >Hi Holly: > >It's always so nice to hear from you. As someone who has experienced first >hand the pain and loss that comes from a teacher gone 'amok' I have followed >this thread with interest. Yes, I would have to say that I did have >self-esteem issues but, except for this certain teacher, low self-esteem >did not bring into my life great amounts of abuse from others. As I >examined my journey I looked at my reaction to many teachings which speak >of the need to follow carefully the words and directions of the teacher not >only for 'safety' but also to work on the great obstacle known as the 'ego'. >No matter how difficult this person's demands were he always seemed to be >working within the framework of the 'teachings'. I seem to have a natural >bend towards bhakti so within my make up was a personal need to perfect love >so often I would simply try to love him more unconditionally. In the end I >have to recognize that there were many factors that went into my long term >relationship with this person...it is hard to boil it down to one factor. >Your observation about a stubborn belief that one can't get there is >probably the closet to a single factor. >Underlying all of the 'issues' was a belief that I simply could not do it, >fortunately the desire to know the 'truth of being' turned out to be >stronger than all else. > >"Is there somebody among us who is not God"? That single question presents >one of the biggest challenges to fully healing from an encounter with a >negative spiritual teacher. As one moves through the process so much comes >to the surface, so many 'red flags' that were ignored but they always seem >to be countered by pearls of wisdom and insights that were received. In >truth, much of what was shared by this teacher has been used in the healing >process. The goal is to move beyond the betrayal into the recognition of >the fact that he too, is God, without that knowing the job is simply not >done. Last week I was lucky enough to be able to attend a live kirtan with >Krishna Das (his cd's are wonderful) and in the course of the evening he >mentioned that we can learn good things from bad teachers.... perhaps in the >end we must trust that our souls are leading us to truth and that the God in >each of us does speak of this truth even if the words are delivered with >pain. > >Linda > >>Hbarrett47 > >>As a corollary to the worthy observations of Dan, Greg and Michael, I'll >>posit that the single most stubborn obstacle to enlightenment is the belief >>that one can't get there! Every single one of us has everything he or she >>needs but we often project this out into other people. Is there somebody >>among us who is NOT God? H. > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Get great offers on top-notch products that match your interests! >Sign up for eLerts at: ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/elerts1 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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