Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Michael, Thanks for these insights. It sounds like you've done a lot of inquiry and thought, and come through a great deal with it. With love, --Greg At 02:41 PM 1/10/00 -0600, Michael wrote: >Michael <mdjinc > >Accepting that "my" process of life is natural >is my unique gift from life itself. > >Denying that my process of life is natural is >a form of non-acceptance of myself and >is therefore a rejection of myself. > >My only fear in life is acceptance of myself. > >Not accepting that I am enough is at the >root of judgment of others and ultimately >myself. > >Self-esteem comes from accepting that >I am enough. > >As long as I reject who I am now, >I will continue to live in a state of dependency >or want others to be dependent on me. >I wll not have self-esteem or >the ability to support another's growth. > >I am learning to trust my own feelings >and my own experiences and >not give that away to others. > >My self-esteem...indeed my very >life depend on it. > >Michael > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >At 02:25 PM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >> >>Hi Gregji - >>What did the New Yorker article have to say (missed that one :-)? >>Thanks for your vote of confidence - I might indeed >>have a "lot to say" on this. Okay, I'll give it a try. >>By the way, the dynamics your friend discussed with you >>ring true to me. >> >>>From here, self-esteem seems ultimately as a spiritual >>reality. It is the feeling of no lack of worth, >>no lack of significance to one's being. Ultimately, >>self-esteem doesn't depend on anything, so people >>using props such as their work, money, status, >>relationships, religious affiliation could >>be viewed as maintaining conditional self-esteem; >>they are feeling worthy because of something. >>Unconditional self-esteem is possible, and this >>possibility suggests to me a "spiritual reality," >>as worldly conditions fluctuate and can only support >>conditional esteem. >>Feeling and knowing one's being as "intrinsically worthy" >>(expressed positively) or with no sense of any lack (expressed negatively) >>seems basic to "resiliency" and "self-healing". >>Conditional factors can't produce what is unconditional, >>but what is unconditional (self-esteem from "being itself") >>doesn't preclude the former (feeling good about one's work, >>spouse, etc.) >> >>By the way, self-esteem doesn't make a person live >>as if they were a self-sufficient island, nor >>does it make a person feel dependent on others. >>It doesn't make a person feel any particular thing, >>rather it's a "coming from a wholeness within >>'things as they are'" - thus allowing >>acceptance of human limitations, and enabling >>self-validation of one's actual >>experience with concomitent non-reliance on others to define >>oneself. Most likely, such a person will be able to give >>and receive caring openly, yet not be dependent on >>receiving caring to "feel all right". A person >>with authentic self-esteem is thus less easily >>manipulated than some, and more likely to value authenticity >>in others than many. >> >>Self-esteem improves >>rather than diminishes relatedness, as self-esteem >>means the other won't be blamed for one's feeling >>states, one won't need to control the other as one's >>"completion" or "source of well-being," etc. >>When people say the concern with self-esteem is part >>of the "me" generation, they are referring to narcissistic >>props for self-esteem, not genuine self-esteem. Self-esteem >>encourages love, as in the Biblical injunction to "love thy >>neighbor as thyself". >> >>How does a therapy client whose past is filled >>with memories of abuse and negative messages >>about self generate a positive sense of self-esteem >>in the present? My view is that this is possible >>because positive self-worth arises from and as >>presentness. Individuals have different ways >>of "tapping into this," often fluctuate, >>feeling able to "tap into it" one day, but >>not the next. This is life. >> >>A sensitive issue that I've dealt with related to this question >>is that many clients in therapy will choose to >>use psychoactive medication. Although this seems >>to make self-esteem "depend on something," medication >>may be viewed as a "useful means" to regulate moods >>so that the ability to notice present-centered self-esteem >>and learning to think positively about self and others >>can develop. In many cases medications eventually >>need not be relied upon, but in cases where >>use of medication is protracted, I generally chalk it up >>to a combination of factors -- with ultimately >>the client being the one to make the choice >>of which tools are "working". >> >>At the same time, I'm quite >>aware of living in a culture that is dependency-oriented >>regarding self-esteem. Reliance on substances that >>seem to enhance or produce self-esteem is quite congruent >>with the "quick-fix" mentality and "material orientation >>to being" that seem to be running rampant in >>our culture (or am I imagining this?). Rather than >>learn from sitting with and dealing with >>feelings of being "not okay," the impulse is >>to get rid of the feeling and move on as best >>as possible. Of course, many people involved >>in spiritual pathwork are leery of psychologists >>and psychiatrists, seeing overreliance on medication >>as problematic, as well as psychological attributions >>about self-esteem as often missing the spiritual >>boat. Certainly there is validity to this view, >>although it's not a blanket truism as many seem to >>imagine. Most therapists I've known do care, many >>do have spiritual orientations, yet they are equally >>members of our troubled society as everyone else, influenced >>by the same cultural forces as all living here are. >> >>A case can be made on either side of >>the medication issue - it's probably best to look at it as >>depending on each individual's situation, >>and to look at what's going to be most >>practically useful for a given person in a given >>situation. >> >>Lovingly, respectfully, and esteemingly yours, >>Dan >> >>> >>>I think from the psychological-therapeutic aspect of self-esteem, Dan-ji >>>might have a lot to say. >>> >>>Love, >>> >>>--Greg >> >> >> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >> >>For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files and, access them >>from anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here for a chance >>to win a digital camera. >><a href=" http://clickme./ad/Atbackup ">Click Here</a> >> >>------ >> >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. >> >> > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Greg: You are very perceptive, indeed. I have come through the "dark night of the soul", to find love and light was there all along, just waiting for me to accept it. I have denied myself, my life process for 50 years, and there is something in me, that is me, that is saying, NO MORE!. No more denying! No more giveaways! No more comparisons! No more judgments! No more pipe dreams! No more illusions! No more....more! The veil of illusions is lifting and showing me who I am... who I have been all along. I will probably always carry my stuff with me, conditioned patterns do not fall away easily. Yet, I know I have come very far on my path, which is just one of many paths we all travel on to reach one destination, one home, waiting for us to acknowledge and accept. Warm Regards, Michael At 05:03 PM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >Greg Goode <goode > >Michael, > >Thanks for these insights. It sounds like you've done a lot of inquiry and >thought, and come through a great deal with it. > >With love, > >--Greg > >At 02:41 PM 1/10/00 -0600, Michael wrote: >>Michael <mdjinc >> >>Accepting that "my" process of life is natural >>is my unique gift from life itself. >> >>Denying that my process of life is natural is >>a form of non-acceptance of myself and >>is therefore a rejection of myself. >> >>My only fear in life is acceptance of myself. >> >>Not accepting that I am enough is at the >>root of judgment of others and ultimately >>myself. >> >>Self-esteem comes from accepting that >>I am enough. >> >>As long as I reject who I am now, >>I will continue to live in a state of dependency >>or want others to be dependent on me. >>I wll not have self-esteem or >>the ability to support another's growth. >> >>I am learning to trust my own feelings >>and my own experiences and >>not give that away to others. >> >>My self-esteem...indeed my very >>life depend on it. >> >>Michael >> >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >>At 02:25 PM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >>> >>>Hi Gregji - >>>What did the New Yorker article have to say (missed that one :-)? >>>Thanks for your vote of confidence - I might indeed >>>have a "lot to say" on this. Okay, I'll give it a try. >>>By the way, the dynamics your friend discussed with you >>>ring true to me. >>> >>>>From here, self-esteem seems ultimately as a spiritual >>>reality. It is the feeling of no lack of worth, >>>no lack of significance to one's being. Ultimately, >>>self-esteem doesn't depend on anything, so people >>>using props such as their work, money, status, >>>relationships, religious affiliation could >>>be viewed as maintaining conditional self-esteem; >>>they are feeling worthy because of something. >>>Unconditional self-esteem is possible, and this >>>possibility suggests to me a "spiritual reality," >>>as worldly conditions fluctuate and can only support >>>conditional esteem. >>>Feeling and knowing one's being as "intrinsically worthy" >>>(expressed positively) or with no sense of any lack (expressed negatively) >>>seems basic to "resiliency" and "self-healing". >>>Conditional factors can't produce what is unconditional, >>>but what is unconditional (self-esteem from "being itself") >>>doesn't preclude the former (feeling good about one's work, >>>spouse, etc.) >>> >>>By the way, self-esteem doesn't make a person live >>>as if they were a self-sufficient island, nor >>>does it make a person feel dependent on others. >>>It doesn't make a person feel any particular thing, >>>rather it's a "coming from a wholeness within >>>'things as they are'" - thus allowing >>>acceptance of human limitations, and enabling >>>self-validation of one's actual >>>experience with concomitent non-reliance on others to define >>>oneself. Most likely, such a person will be able to give >>>and receive caring openly, yet not be dependent on >>>receiving caring to "feel all right". A person >>>with authentic self-esteem is thus less easily >>>manipulated than some, and more likely to value authenticity >>>in others than many. >>> >>>Self-esteem improves >>>rather than diminishes relatedness, as self-esteem >>>means the other won't be blamed for one's feeling >>>states, one won't need to control the other as one's >>>"completion" or "source of well-being," etc. >>>When people say the concern with self-esteem is part >>>of the "me" generation, they are referring to narcissistic >>>props for self-esteem, not genuine self-esteem. Self-esteem >>>encourages love, as in the Biblical injunction to "love thy >>>neighbor as thyself". >>> >>>How does a therapy client whose past is filled >>>with memories of abuse and negative messages >>>about self generate a positive sense of self-esteem >>>in the present? My view is that this is possible >>>because positive self-worth arises from and as >>>presentness. Individuals have different ways >>>of "tapping into this," often fluctuate, >>>feeling able to "tap into it" one day, but >>>not the next. This is life. >>> >>>A sensitive issue that I've dealt with related to this question >>>is that many clients in therapy will choose to >>>use psychoactive medication. Although this seems >>>to make self-esteem "depend on something," medication >>>may be viewed as a "useful means" to regulate moods >>>so that the ability to notice present-centered self-esteem >>>and learning to think positively about self and others >>>can develop. In many cases medications eventually >>>need not be relied upon, but in cases where >>>use of medication is protracted, I generally chalk it up >>>to a combination of factors -- with ultimately >>>the client being the one to make the choice >>>of which tools are "working". >>> >>>At the same time, I'm quite >>>aware of living in a culture that is dependency-oriented >>>regarding self-esteem. Reliance on substances that >>>seem to enhance or produce self-esteem is quite congruent >>>with the "quick-fix" mentality and "material orientation >>>to being" that seem to be running rampant in >>>our culture (or am I imagining this?). Rather than >>>learn from sitting with and dealing with >>>feelings of being "not okay," the impulse is >>>to get rid of the feeling and move on as best >>>as possible. Of course, many people involved >>>in spiritual pathwork are leery of psychologists >>>and psychiatrists, seeing overreliance on medication >>>as problematic, as well as psychological attributions >>>about self-esteem as often missing the spiritual >>>boat. Certainly there is validity to this view, >>>although it's not a blanket truism as many seem to >>>imagine. Most therapists I've known do care, many >>>do have spiritual orientations, yet they are equally >>>members of our troubled society as everyone else, influenced >>>by the same cultural forces as all living here are. >>> >>>A case can be made on either side of >>>the medication issue - it's probably best to look at it as >>>depending on each individual's situation, >>>and to look at what's going to be most >>>practically useful for a given person in a given >>>situation. >>> >>>Lovingly, respectfully, and esteemingly yours, >>>Dan >>> >>>> >>>>I think from the psychological-therapeutic aspect of self-esteem, Dan-ji >>>>might have a lot to say. >>>> >>>>Love, >>>> >>>>--Greg >>> >>> >>> >>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >>> >>>For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files and, access them >>>from anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here for a chance >>>to win a digital camera. >>><a href=" http://clickme./ad/Atbackup ">Click Here</a> >>> >>>------ >>> >>>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >>perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >>back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >>the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >>Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >>where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >>Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >>arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. >>> >>> >> >> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >> >> GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >>Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >>forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! >> <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> >> >>------ >> >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is >Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality >of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, >spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to >a. >> >> > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! >Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in >forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/gator4 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.