Guest guest Posted January 22, 2000 Report Share Posted January 22, 2000 Roger - Thanks for these thoughts about stillness and Grace. We seem to be looking at whether "subtle effort" is useful, or "no effort". As you discuss ways to still the mind, I wonder who is it who is doing this, and what is this mind that is supposedly being stilled. If "no effort" is distinguished as a separate state from "subtle effort", we have a duality. "We" can apparently choose one "path" or another. This begs the question concerning the reality of the one who apparently makes choices, and who apparently makes no effort or makes a subtle effort. We can discuss which approach is more worthwhile and in which situation. Meanwhile, nonduality would appear to be "beyond" such dichotomous discussion. Neither "effort" of a subtle or overt kind, nor "effortlessness" succeed at presenting a "means" adequate to "reach" nonduality - which can't be considered as something that is reached or not reached. Discussions about what kind of subtle effort helps to reach no-effort seem fine to me, as long as we can validate a dichotomy between effort and no-effort, and can validate someone who choses a path. However, if our inquiry leads to nonviability for such concepts, such discussions will no longer fit. If nonduality already is the case, then when we talk about making an effort or not making an effort, we are speaking from the perspective of our own rationale, from a someone who exists apart from nonduality and who wants to experience "it". This rationale developed from the perspective of one wanting to experience "nonduality" seems distinct from "nonduality's nonrationale" (it has no rationale that I can see) in which there is no separate one who could have a mind to still, nor any separate mind to be stilled. Another word sometimes used for "nonduality's nonrationale" is Grace. Grace be with us, in us, and through us. Peace, Dan At 10:52 AM 1/21/00 -0700, you wrote: >"Roger Isaacs" <rbi > >>>Roger: >>Thoughts of Union are just thoughts, and not Union. But let's distinguish >>unproductive 'thinking about union' from the Yoga of Discrimination (Gyana >>oga), which uses discrimination to transcend thought. >> >>>You suggest that Union achieved by Love is potentially superior to other >>paths. Isn't God both Love & Truth? What does it matter which route is >>taken? >> >>D: You discuss "transcending thought" above. At the "point" at which >>thought is transcended, how can we discuss a route? The idea of a route >>from somewhere to somewhere else is itself a bias of thought. It seems >>to come down to a "total leap beyond" that can't take place in any way >>that is constrained by, or dependent on thought - including ideas >>of a route, a superior or inferior way, the need for love, truth, >>being, enlightenment, or even ideas about being "thoughtless," or concepts >>of a place "beyond thought." >>-- Love -- Dan > > >From my perspective: >There seem to be two distinct levels here: >The first: subtle personal effort is required to move into a state of >receptivity or stillness. >The second: once in receptive stillness nothing else can be done, >transformation or Grace or a 'glimpse' can occur, but clearly no volition or >effort can ever trigger the glimpse. > >The various diverse paths of Yoga are the 'subtle effort' or 'routes'. Yet >the routes are in themselves only useful for stilling the mind. Then Grace >descends into that stillness. > >I ask myself 'what subtle effort can I initiate to still the mind which then >might create the conditions for transcendence'. Note the emphasis on subtle >effort which leads to 'NO effort'! > >My experiences: >1) using a discriminative approach 'neti-neti' or 'not this, not this', with >attention on turning thought against itself or attention on stilling >thought, stillness & subsequent transcendence might occur. >2) using an approach based in sensation, such as putting attention into the >body or chakras & the sensations & subtle energy there, stillness & >transcendence may occur. >3) much less frequently for me: spontaneous emotional expansion, feeling >Love towards someone or something, this too can lead to transcendence. But >for me personally this is not something I can reproduce by subtle effort, it >just happens occasionally. And I think this just means my mind-body is more >geared to discrimination rather than devotion. Other people are probably >just the opposite. >4) I sure there are other ways (see my web site) but I'm not as tuned into >them. TM mantra meditation worked to some degree for me but didn't seem to >be best suited to my particular needs. > >There are examples of this 2-3 level distinction in the literature, but that >would be too dry! > >It's useful for me to realize that subtle effort is required & I need to >engineer this. I need to arrange my life & discover what practices encourage >deeper stillness. However, this effort must end in no effort, must end in >stillness beyond any trace of effort. > >IMHO teachers, various advaita teachers, who teach that 'no effort' is >required to reach God or 'nothing at all must or can be done' are delivering >only part of the equation. They are misleading!! Subtle effort is useful >for nearly everyone, but the effort must lead to stillness or a state of >effortless communion. > >Roger >www.newu.org > > > > > > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Get great offers on top-notch products that match your interests! >Sign up for eLerts at: ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/elerts1 ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2000 Report Share Posted January 22, 2000 Hi Dan, >Thanks for these thoughts about stillness >and Grace. We seem to be looking at >whether "subtle effort" is useful, or >"no effort". I understood Roger to be using the term "subtle effort" to indicate effort on the subtle planes/levels/states of consciousness. >If "no effort" is distinguished >as a separate state from "subtle effort", we >have a duality. "Effort" is not "a state" at all. It seems to me that "a state" is akasha, while "effort" is prana at some level of manifestation. >If nonduality >already is the case, then when we talk about >making an effort or not making an effort, we are >speaking from the perspective of our own rationale, >from a someone who exists apart from nonduality >and who wants to experience "it". Or who has returned and wants to use words to point the way, as Harsha said. Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.