Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Dear Dan, These are well thought out points you make. Let me ask you a few sincere questions. Would it have been better she did it privately, which would have been more elegant and diplomatic? Or, do you think it was important that she made it public so that the women in the hotel knew they had someone on their side? Let's remember Janet is dramatic, it is part of her psychological archetype and she does exagerrate and tell the story for laughs also. Yes, she probably does get off on the power, but let's remember she's very unsophisticated, grew up on a poor farm without alot of exposure and she was indignant at the maid's obvious humiliation. Love, Annette p.s. was going to repost your poem on the Tree also, was very beautiful :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Hi Kristie, Thank you for your useful and compassionate input on this. You seem very attuned to the nuances of power interactions, very aware of the hurtfulness of shaming someone to "compensate" for that one's shaming of another. (Tactics remind me of two grade school teachers everyone feared :-) Yes, a real give-away was the gloating remark about how "his self-esteem was finished." How could compassionate awareness ever gloat about destroying someone's self-esteem? (In this case, though, it was more like loss of self-image and apparent power, not really self-esteem in the first place.) I don't know if you've ever read Don Juan's ideas about petty tyrants as providing valuable lessons in awareness, but it's a case of two petty tyrants (he found the lessons were there, more or less in "spite" of the petty tyrant's self-righteousness). The first "tyrant" here was the male landlord (who was the maid's petty tyrant), the second was the female boss who was the landlord's petty tyrant. Hope *everyone* learns their lessons here. I'm not saying anyone is "wrong," or "bad" here - just saying it's well worth it to observe everyone's role clearly, and to see the difficulty (which I believe you see) in labeling who is a "good person" and who is a "bad person". A remark expressing enjoyment that "his head hung like a dog," is clearly indicative of enjoyment of "power over", as well as being offensive to dog lovers. Surely there would be alternatives to "redress the situation," and facilitate greater interpersonal compassion, as you suggested. The lesson here was that the one who pays the "help" controls the "help." "My" moral "virtues" will be imposed on "you" because you depend on my money to survive. I appreciate your insight, and your sensitivity to the hierarchical tendencies of money, power, culture and "one-upsmanship" games regarding "who is the real 'god/goddess' here". In terms of national politics, this seems very much the rationale for much of the U.S.'s supposed "benevolence" as they control foreign economies, resources and politics in the name of "furthering democracy" (also typical dynamics in religious expansionism). It's best to have a sense of humor about all the self-righteousness, I've found. Lots of love and appreciation for your compassionate awareness. A subtext to your remarks, for me, is "the dynamics of power are worth observing, sometimes they're more subtle than other times - but if you ignore these, you will miss a great deal about how humans operate." Yes, we spiritual types often involve ourselves in overt and covert "power trips," often priding ourselves that we know what's best for everyone, and miss the implicit violence in believing one's own beliefs and values are correct for everyone, thus not needing to learn nuances of culture, communication, and role that are important to the context of "others's lives". You've helped me to notice the nuances of communication here, and such mindfulness is very useful. The reminder to be attentive to the entire context of communication, including class, status, privelege, and assumption of "being right" was well-received here :-) Love, Dan At 05:38 PM 1/30/00 -0800, you wrote: >Kristie Shelloner <orleans > >Hello!!???!! Excuse me, have I woken up on a different list? After I got >over needing to toss my cookies over this story I decided I had to respond >and I won't mince words. This story has to be one of the most collosal >reflections of the ignorance and arrogance of prestige, status and wealth >that I have heard in a long, long time. > >So, your brilliant friend Janet, played one-upmanship in the bully game and >won. Now, who loses? She used her prestige and status the thump some poor >acculturated shmuck who used his prestige and status to thump another poor >acculturated shmuck. Who should have known better? I hope Janet plans to >live in Egypt the rest of her maid's life because if Janet ever leaves her >maid is mincemeat, if she isn't already. To bring shame to one's family in >such a culture is tantamount to suicide. Janet may be proud of her actions >but I'm sure her maid has far more conflicted feelings. When you march into >someone else's game and force them to play by your rules you set into effect >many ripples that you may be clueless about. > >Janet would have been far wiser to have established the protocols for >behavior in her household in private with all respect for what's-his-names >pride. Even requiring an apology to the maid might have been doable. But to >require him to shame himself was a terrible, terrible mistake. Only Janet >will never have to pay the price or even know of its exactment. > >Finally, I read stuff like this, reflections of the views of the rich and >powerful, and I can always only think they would do very well by a stint >with homelessness, privation and NOT having prestige, status and wealth. The >stamp and sanction and protection of being among the elite creates grave >ignorance that prevents otherwise good people from engaging in behaviors and >solutions that actually promote healing. Janet's maid and her landlord would >have been better served in the long and short run by the facilitation of >seeing each other as humans and worthy beings. Now they have shame and anger >where there might have been planted the seeds of heart and full vision. > >Janet's staff will kow-tow to her even more now but that shouldn't be >confused with respect. Sounds to me like Janet's "protection" of her maid >was really more in the nature of a veil to her own power trips. Pity. > >Love, Kristi > > >At 06:17 PM 1/30/00 EST, you wrote: >>RainboLily >> >> >>Dear All and Mary, >> >>Mary, brilliant idea on the Archetype awards, here's mine to Janet for >>Rebellina Extraordinaire, this is one brilliant and beautiful woman :-) >> >>This is from Janet McElligot in Cairo, a superb dear friend, who helped >>release the American Hostages in the Sudanese Civil War from Rebel Guerilla >>leaders, by striding into the desert in her green silk pants suit and gold >>lame shoes, and reading the huge Guerilla leader the riot act and asking how >>exactly did he think America was going to continue to support starving Sudan >>by stealing their people? >> >>(I think the Congressmen who flew in with Janet probably had a collective >>stroke >>just about then *g*.) >> >>She is truly a chef and soup stirrer extraordinaire and an inspiration, this >>story >>has kept me laughing for two days now and I sent it forward out of my real >>name and everyone and their mother has called, the maids, the trashmen and >>the ambassadors, yeah, ya know those politicians *g* teasing! So, I thought >>I'd pass it along. >> >>Love, >>Anna Maria (Annette) >> >>Dear All, >> >>Egypt is complicated. Life is supposed to be easy, but things are never >> >>as simple as they should be wherever I'm located. Don't know why that >>is. Had a huge row with the help yesterday. >> >>The flat here is 3/br/ba and a large living area. The view is great by >>the way. I can see the Nile, the pyramids and all of Cairo from the >>22nd floor. They were supposed to fix one of the toliets and didn't, so >> >>when the landlords agent came to collect the rent I asked him about it. >>He immediately turned to the maid and started to yell at her. >> >>Om'mosaeed is probably about 50 and looks at least 65. The years are >>not kind to the lower class in Egypt. She was in tears. >> >>I threw out Mahmoud immediately and told him that I'd see him in an >>hour. Besides my tutor was there and I was paying for a lesson. >>Needless to say, she started crying and told me that she'd worked for >>the landlord for 11 years and Mahmoud has been trying to get rid of her >>with the owner because she doesn't cook food for him (believe me, he >>hasn't missed a meal in years by the width of his girth), and she works >>for who ever is in the flat, not him. He is a typical abuser. >> >>The lesson was unofficially over as the maid sat and cried. She is >>really afraid that she'll lose her job. I pay her, but she "comes with >>the flat" and only makes about $90/mth. She comes six days a week and >>cleans and cooks for me. Quite the bargain. Mind you, the cleaning is >>done occassionally and there is no need for a full time cook/housekeeper >> >>for one person, altho there are those in my family who would disagree, >>I'm sure. I am truly lazy concerning housework. I know this is news >>for each of you, but believe me, it is the truth. >> >>So after the lesson finished, I went looking for Mahmoud. My tutor went >> >>with me to the fifth floor where he was waiting to see me and collect >>the rent. Decided to let him know where things stand. >> >>I asked him to sit down and Amr (my tutor) acted as an interpreter when >>I couldn't get the point across - 80% of the time. I told Mahmoud that >>he was not welcome in my house any longer because only a coward yells at >> >>a woman. I said that the things that were to be fixed were not the >>responsiblity of the maid, but his and he was the one who had fallen >>down on the job, not her. >> >>Then I really nailed him. I told him that I considered Om'mosaeed and >>him as equals (here they're not at all) because both of them work for me >> >>and the landlord and that as such he was to apologize for yelling at her >> >>in front of all the people who were there at the time. His head hung >>like a dog. He was equal to a maid for the first time in his life. You >> >>could tell his self esteem was finished. I told Said, my doorman, to go >> >>to the apartment and get Om'mosaeed immediately and he did. >> >>She came down and for the first time in her life, and undoubtably the >>last, the male landlord's agent apologized in front of a room full of >>men to a female maid. Her status rose and his plummeted, but it was >>either that or never get my rent money. >> >>Then I told him that the rent would be given to him only after all the >>things that needed fixed were done and that I wanted to call the >>landlord directly about this matter. You should have seen his face at >>taht one. But he had no choice. Was that ever fun. >> >>I'm sure Om'mosaeed will never forget that a man told her he was sorry. >>And one much more important than her. She was embarassed, but I told >>all the doormen that if they ever yelled at a woman in my hearing they >>would indeed be sorry. >> >>Tonight when I came home from class, they all stood at attention and >>were amazing. It was like someone had given them speed. Couldn't do >>enough for me. Perhaps they all wanted to tell off Mahmoud and would >>never be able to do that. Who knows? The trials and tribulations of >>managing a household staff. Technically, I have three staff. It's good >> >>practice for Arabic, but a bit of a pain in the butt. I don't generate >>enough for one person to do - except in the cleaning department, much >>less three. >> >>{...] cut >> >>Love, >>Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2000 Report Share Posted January 31, 2000 Dear Dan: Your post was a wonderful summation of the big picture. My background has been in the ideas of evolution of consciousness as they are expressed in the individual within the context of culture and within the context of relationships; this is always about the dynamics of power. I cannot help but think that "enlightenment" in an individual must extend - as all thoughts extend - otherwise, it is the sound of one hand clapping. Much to my chagrin, I realize even in the post I wrote about the dynamic in Egypt, how difficult it is to extricate personal judgement from even the most "righteous" events or perceptions. Personal judgement, expressed or simply held, is always a precept for power dynamics. Innocence and lovingkindness without wisdom can be an unpredictable mix. Yet, who would wish the loss of either. Love, Kristi At 09:23 AM 1/31/00 -0500, you wrote: >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > >Hi Kristie, >Thank you for your useful and >compassionate input on this. >You seem very attuned to the nuances >of power interactions, >very aware of the hurtfulness of shaming someone >to "compensate" for that one's shaming of another. >(Tactics remind me of two grade school teachers > everyone feared :-) > >Yes, a real give-away was the gloating remark >about how "his self-esteem was finished." >How could compassionate awareness ever gloat >about destroying someone's self-esteem? >(In this case, though, it was more like loss of >self-image and apparent power, not really self-esteem >in the first place.) I don't know if you've ever read >Don Juan's ideas about petty tyrants as providing >valuable lessons in awareness, but it's a case of >two petty tyrants (he found the lessons were there, >more or less in "spite" of the petty tyrant's >self-righteousness). The first "tyrant" here >was the male landlord (who was the maid's >petty tyrant), the second was the female boss who >was the landlord's petty tyrant. Hope *everyone* >learns their lessons here. I'm not saying anyone >is "wrong," or "bad" here - just saying it's well >worth it to observe everyone's role clearly, and >to see the difficulty (which I believe you see) >in labeling who is a "good person" >and who is a "bad person". > >A remark expressing enjoyment that > "his head hung like a dog," >is clearly indicative of enjoyment of >"power over", as well as being offensive to dog lovers. >Surely there would be alternatives >to "redress the situation," and facilitate >greater interpersonal compassion, as you suggested. >The lesson here was that the one who pays the "help" controls >the "help." "My" moral "virtues" will be >imposed on "you" because you depend on my money >to survive. > >I appreciate your insight, and your >sensitivity to the hierarchical tendencies >of money, power, culture and "one-upsmanship" >games regarding "who is the real 'god/goddess' here". >In terms of national politics, this seems >very much the rationale for much of the U.S.'s >supposed "benevolence" as they control >foreign economies, resources and politics in the >name of "furthering democracy" (also typical >dynamics in religious expansionism). It's >best to have a sense of humor about >all the self-righteousness, I've found. > >Lots of love and appreciation for >your compassionate awareness. A subtext >to your remarks, for me, is "the dynamics >of power are worth observing, sometimes >they're more subtle than other times - >but if you ignore these, you will miss >a great deal about how humans operate." >Yes, we spiritual types often involve ourselves >in overt and covert "power trips," often >priding ourselves that we know what's best for >everyone, and miss the implicit violence in >believing one's own beliefs and values are >correct for everyone, thus not needing to >learn nuances of culture, communication, and role >that are important to the context of "others's lives". > >You've helped me to notice the nuances of communication >here, and such mindfulness is very useful. The reminder >to be attentive to the entire context of communication, >including class, status, privelege, and assumption of >"being right" was well-received here :-) > >Love, >Dan > > >At 05:38 PM 1/30/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Kristie Shelloner <orleans >> >>Hello!!???!! Excuse me, have I woken up on a different list? After I got >>over needing to toss my cookies over this story I decided I had to respond >>and I won't mince words. This story has to be one of the most collosal >>reflections of the ignorance and arrogance of prestige, status and wealth >>that I have heard in a long, long time. >> >>So, your brilliant friend Janet, played one-upmanship in the bully game and >>won. Now, who loses? She used her prestige and status the thump some poor >>acculturated shmuck who used his prestige and status to thump another poor >>acculturated shmuck. Who should have known better? I hope Janet plans to >>live in Egypt the rest of her maid's life because if Janet ever leaves her >>maid is mincemeat, if she isn't already. To bring shame to one's family in >>such a culture is tantamount to suicide. Janet may be proud of her actions >>but I'm sure her maid has far more conflicted feelings. When you march into >>someone else's game and force them to play by your rules you set into effect >>many ripples that you may be clueless about. >> >>Janet would have been far wiser to have established the protocols for >>behavior in her household in private with all respect for what's-his-names >>pride. Even requiring an apology to the maid might have been doable. But to >>require him to shame himself was a terrible, terrible mistake. Only Janet >>will never have to pay the price or even know of its exactment. >> >>Finally, I read stuff like this, reflections of the views of the rich and >>powerful, and I can always only think they would do very well by a stint >>with homelessness, privation and NOT having prestige, status and wealth. The >>stamp and sanction and protection of being among the elite creates grave >>ignorance that prevents otherwise good people from engaging in behaviors and >>solutions that actually promote healing. Janet's maid and her landlord would >>have been better served in the long and short run by the facilitation of >>seeing each other as humans and worthy beings. Now they have shame and anger >>where there might have been planted the seeds of heart and full vision. >> >>Janet's staff will kow-tow to her even more now but that shouldn't be >>confused with respect. Sounds to me like Janet's "protection" of her maid >>was really more in the nature of a veil to her own power trips. Pity. >> >>Love, Kristi >> >> >>At 06:17 PM 1/30/00 EST, you wrote: >>>RainboLily >>> >>> >>>Dear All and Mary, >>> >>>Mary, brilliant idea on the Archetype awards, here's mine to Janet for >>>Rebellina Extraordinaire, this is one brilliant and beautiful woman :-) >>> >>>This is from Janet McElligot in Cairo, a superb dear friend, who helped >>>release the American Hostages in the Sudanese Civil War from Rebel Guerilla >>>leaders, by striding into the desert in her green silk pants suit and gold >>>lame shoes, and reading the huge Guerilla leader the riot act and asking >how >>>exactly did he think America was going to continue to support starving >Sudan >>>by stealing their people? >>> >>>(I think the Congressmen who flew in with Janet probably had a collective >>>stroke >>>just about then *g*.) >>> >>>She is truly a chef and soup stirrer extraordinaire and an inspiration, >this >>>story >>>has kept me laughing for two days now and I sent it forward out of my real >>>name and everyone and their mother has called, the maids, the trashmen and >>>the ambassadors, yeah, ya know those politicians *g* teasing! So, I >thought >>>I'd pass it along. >>> >>>Love, >>>Anna Maria (Annette) >>> >>>Dear All, >>> >>>Egypt is complicated. Life is supposed to be easy, but things are never >>> >>>as simple as they should be wherever I'm located. Don't know why that >>>is. Had a huge row with the help yesterday. >>> >>>The flat here is 3/br/ba and a large living area. The view is great by >>>the way. I can see the Nile, the pyramids and all of Cairo from the >>>22nd floor. They were supposed to fix one of the toliets and didn't, so >>> >>>when the landlords agent came to collect the rent I asked him about it. >>>He immediately turned to the maid and started to yell at her. >>> >>>Om'mosaeed is probably about 50 and looks at least 65. The years are >>>not kind to the lower class in Egypt. She was in tears. >>> >>>I threw out Mahmoud immediately and told him that I'd see him in an >>>hour. Besides my tutor was there and I was paying for a lesson. >>>Needless to say, she started crying and told me that she'd worked for >>>the landlord for 11 years and Mahmoud has been trying to get rid of her >>>with the owner because she doesn't cook food for him (believe me, he >>>hasn't missed a meal in years by the width of his girth), and she works >>>for who ever is in the flat, not him. He is a typical abuser. >>> >>>The lesson was unofficially over as the maid sat and cried. She is >>>really afraid that she'll lose her job. I pay her, but she "comes with >>>the flat" and only makes about $90/mth. She comes six days a week and >>>cleans and cooks for me. Quite the bargain. Mind you, the cleaning is >>>done occassionally and there is no need for a full time cook/housekeeper >>> >>>for one person, altho there are those in my family who would disagree, >>>I'm sure. I am truly lazy concerning housework. I know this is news >>>for each of you, but believe me, it is the truth. >>> >>>So after the lesson finished, I went looking for Mahmoud. My tutor went >>> >>>with me to the fifth floor where he was waiting to see me and collect >>>the rent. Decided to let him know where things stand. >>> >>>I asked him to sit down and Amr (my tutor) acted as an interpreter when >>>I couldn't get the point across - 80% of the time. I told Mahmoud that >>>he was not welcome in my house any longer because only a coward yells at >>> >>>a woman. I said that the things that were to be fixed were not the >>>responsiblity of the maid, but his and he was the one who had fallen >>>down on the job, not her. >>> >>>Then I really nailed him. I told him that I considered Om'mosaeed and >>>him as equals (here they're not at all) because both of them work for me >>> >>>and the landlord and that as such he was to apologize for yelling at her >>> >>>in front of all the people who were there at the time. His head hung >>>like a dog. He was equal to a maid for the first time in his life. You >>> >>>could tell his self esteem was finished. I told Said, my doorman, to go >>> >>>to the apartment and get Om'mosaeed immediately and he did. >>> >>>She came down and for the first time in her life, and undoubtably the >>>last, the male landlord's agent apologized in front of a room full of >>>men to a female maid. Her status rose and his plummeted, but it was >>>either that or never get my rent money. >>> >>>Then I told him that the rent would be given to him only after all the >>>things that needed fixed were done and that I wanted to call the >>>landlord directly about this matter. You should have seen his face at >>>taht one. But he had no choice. Was that ever fun. >>> >>>I'm sure Om'mosaeed will never forget that a man told her he was sorry. >>>And one much more important than her. She was embarassed, but I told >>>all the doormen that if they ever yelled at a woman in my hearing they >>>would indeed be sorry. >>> >>>Tonight when I came home from class, they all stood at attention and >>>were amazing. It was like someone had given them speed. Couldn't do >>>enough for me. Perhaps they all wanted to tell off Mahmoud and would >>>never be able to do that. Who knows? The trials and tribulations of >>>managing a household staff. Technically, I have three staff. It's good >>> >>>practice for Arabic, but a bit of a pain in the butt. I don't generate >>>enough for one person to do - except in the cleaning department, much >>>less three. >>> >>>{...] cut >>> >>>Love, >>>Janet > > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >ONElist: your connection to online communities. > >------ > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.