The last piece of the jigsaw and intellect.

[Guest guest]

There is another much easier way. Be yourself. LOL

 

Ohhhhh but that is sooooo difficult to do! ('specially for me!) People may

recoil in horror if I was to be myself! We must *act* this way or that, so

that we may be acceptable... to who? We think it is others... but it is to

our own judgements.

 

We think of "Being YourSelf", as if that is a separate entity -- so we become

'spiritual', sugary loving, non-judgemental of others while remaining

judgemental of our our actions, discriminate, God-like, among many others --

those things we think God would want us to be. We become our idea of Self,

which keeps us from ourself, and separates us even further.

 

If we were to go to the place of 'no time', where the beginning until the end

of all time exists, who would we be? Would we be who we are in our past...

our present... or our future? I like what Andrew said... "Self is like

air.. it doesn't need to be 'got to''. And if you do get to it, you find

it is you all along, in the present moment, which just so happens to be right

here, who you are right now. There is no bigger or better you. Just you.

Yourself. Not yourSelf you had in mind.

 

The question ''who am I'' can be found by looking at who you are right here,

right now, not who you think you can be -- this lofty Godlike ideal. You

are not Jesus or Buddha or Cleopatra. You are not your resume, your

intellect, nor your body. You are not your thoughts, your feelings, nor your

perceptions. You don't have to reach the Nirvanic state to know this, to

see this.

 

You are You. And You are light You are what you know right now and you are

what you don't know right now. When we can begin being who we are -- just

plain ol' you or me -- is when we begin to really shine... and be the light.

Then, we are the Mind of God -- the Nirvanic state -- and being the light we

truly are. There's no more waiting on others to be the light first so we

can see our own light in their mirror. There is nowhere to go but here.

 

Is this really kewl or whaaaaat?

 

Love,

xxxtg

[Guest guest]

Namaste All.

 

I suppose I can say I'm lucky I didn't put this on the

NDS. The egos would be enraged. But that would be just

my ego playing a game. Before anything let me

apologise for my direct style, this is how I write no

offence meant.

 

 

I, Tony, wrote:->" Mind will not kill the mind. Self

has to kill the

>> mind in the final stage. The Grace of the Guru,(

Inner

>> Guru), is quite essential to kill the mind. In the

>> absence of this Grace one cannot kill the mind and

>> realise the Self." Sri Lakshmana Swamy.

>>

>> In other words this is the last piece of the jigsaw

>> that I put in different words. No amount of wordy

>> intellectual roundabouts will do it. They may

>> establish a thought of nonduality but that is still

a

>> thought.? <Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

 

1) On what basis do you (apparently)

assume that this so-called "last

piece" is outside the ken of

people you offhandedly label as

"intellectual?" Have you

somehow concluded that the

actual experience of the so-

called "Self" is some kind of

exclusive bhakti franchise that

cannot occur for/to non-bhaktas? Bruce Morgen.

 

Tony's ans:

Who said I was on the exclusive Bhakti Path? When I

was with S.B. I spent my time, many hours, in the

Darshan lines reading Ramanashram stuff! Jnana is

part of the four fold path of Bhakti anyway, and in

the end result Love is God and God is Energy/Love.

 

That is the ultimate a mind can experience, again all

the non-dual roundabouts, only reinforce a thought of

non-duality, even if it is a single thought, it is

still a massive reinforced intellectual giant Ego

thought! The question is 'Whose thought is it'? Who

does it belong to? Does the dream end itself or does

the dreamer stop dreaming? In the meantime hit the

wall and see if it is real, if a Jivanmukti hits the

wall it is also real, his bones will also break.

 

2) This is an e-mail list after all, words are the

tools available

here.

Self is just here like the air, it doesn't need to

be got to. It's

not a matter of

killing the mind, it's the mind surrendering

willingly, dying while

living, which

takes trust and love. The mind must hear the call of

Self, I don't know

how that

happens. Reading discussing and talking about it

increase the

likelyhood, like

standing around in open fields during thunderstorms

increase the

likelyhood of being

struck by lightning.

 

love, andrew

 

Tony's ans:

That's what I didn't like about NDS it really was

almost a massive wharehouse full of all kind of tools,

and everybody vying to show how many they can use and

how to use them, but forgetting that the field still

has to be ploughed. In a way I am lucky that I am not

a university graduate.

 

The mind cannot die anymore than your nightly dream

can stop itself, it can only purify itself.

 

3) D: It's silly to talk about killing something.

What's the point of such talk?

As if anyone could know beforehand what needed

to die, or how it would die.

As if presentness weren't simply undying, unborn,

and unsplit.

Grace is simply a word for not-knowing,

not-controlling.

Who can say a true word about it, that's what I

want to know.

Nothing we say is true.

If we speak words that bring us to a point of

not-knowing,

of openness, then - blessings!

Love - Dan

 

Tony's ans:

 

This is what I am talking about, Of course something

has to die! Your thoughts or mind have to die! The

illusion has to die! You are right about 'true word

about it' etc. However words cannot bring us to a

point of not knowing or openness. They can only bring

us to a state of one thought meditation perhaps not

even that.

 

This is the problem of the manomayakosa, like a

bicycle racing around a velodrome ducking here, faster

there, but going nowhere but in circles. Blame it on

the Greeks Philosophers and their emphasis, ha ha ha

,or the later ones.

 

In the end the greatest conceit and deceit of the Ego

is that it can gain its own Moksha. This very

intellectualising sustains one in the sea of Samsara.

It is not really intellectualising for it is in the

Manomayakosa. There are only a few real intellectuals

on the planet. Those with purified Buddhis. In my

belief anyway.

 

Love and Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

 

 

 

 

 

=====

http://members.xoom.com/aoclery/sanskritglos.htm

ASATHO MA SATH GAMAYA, From the unreal lead me to the real,

THAMASO MA JYOTHIR GAMAYA, From darkness, lead me to light,

MRITHYOR MA AMRITAM GAMAYA.From death, lead me to immortality.

OM, SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI. Om, Peace Peace Peace.

 

 

Talk to your friends online with Messenger.

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[Guest guest]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:41:22 -0800 (PST) Tony O'Clery <aoclery

writes:

> Tony O'Clery <aoclery

>

> Namaste All.

>

> I suppose I can say I'm lucky I didn't put this on the

> NDS. The egos would be enraged. But that would be just

> my ego playing a game. Before anything let me

> apologise for my direct style, this is how I write no

> offence meant.

>

>

> I, Tony, wrote:->" Mind will not kill the mind. Self

> has to kill the

> >> mind in the final stage. The Grace of the Guru,(

> Inner

> >> Guru), is quite essential to kill the mind. In the

> >> absence of this Grace one cannot kill the mind and

> >> realise the Self." Sri Lakshmana Swamy.

> >>

> >> In other words this is the last piece of the jigsaw

> >> that I put in different words. No amount of wordy

> >> intellectual roundabouts will do it. They may

> >> establish a thought of nonduality but that is still

> a

> >> thought.? <Om Namah Sivaya, Tony.

>

> 1) On what basis do you (apparently)

> assume that this so-called "last

> piece" is outside the ken of

> people you offhandedly label as

> "intellectual?" Have you

> somehow concluded that the

> actual experience of the so-

> called "Self" is some kind of

> exclusive bhakti franchise that

> cannot occur for/to non-bhaktas? Bruce Morgen.

>

> Tony's ans:

> Who said I was on the exclusive Bhakti Path?

 

Nobody, but there was a

clear anti-"intellectual"

bias that is typical of

fervent bhakt advocates.

That why I asked the

question, Tony, for

further clarification.

> When I

> was with S.B. I spent my time, many hours, in the

> Darshan lines reading Ramanashram stuff! Jnana is

> part of the four fold path of Bhakti anyway, and in

> the end result Love is God and God is Energy/Love.

 

What makes you assume that

those you dismiss with the

phrase "non-dual

roundabouts" are not living

embodiments of this "end

result" (a very poor choice

of words, but let's go with

it for the moment)?

>

> That is the ultimate a mind can experience, again all

> the non-dual roundabouts, only reinforce a thought of

> non-duality, even if it is a single thought, it is

> still a massive reinforced intellectual giant Ego

> thought!

 

I agree, grasping nonduality

conceptually is not anywhere

near the same as actual

nondual realization and often

comprises the final and most

formidable barrier to it.

However, if I may be so bold,

where the heck do you get the

nerve to assume that those

who attempt to point toward

the nondual in a careful,

"intellectual" way of writing

are stuck in "a massive

reinforced intellectual giant

Ego thought?" Do you see the

possibility of your own ego

being involved in this

judgement via a sort of

reverse intellectual

snobbery?

> The question is 'Whose thought is it'? Who

> does it belong to? Does the dream end itself or does

> the dreamer stop dreaming? In the meantime hit the

> wall and see if it is real, if a Jivanmukti hits the

> wall it is also real, his bones will also break.

 

Again, I ask in all sincerity,

why do you assume that those

whose discourse you dismiss as

"roundabout" or "intellectual"

haven't been through this very

process?

>

[replies to Andrew

and Dan snipped]

 

 

http://come.to/realization

http://www.atman.net/realization

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm

http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm

 

 

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[Guest guest]

andrew:

 

The Yoga Sutra (Patanjali) says;

 

"The apparent causes of a transformation do not in fact bring it about,. They

merely

remove the obstacles to natural growth, as a farmer clears the ground for his

crops."

 

Radical passionate total self-inquiry is the only way, and it is ultimately

silent,

solitary simple steady attention, but there are lots of words and thoughts along

the

way. This is an e-mail list after all, words are the tools available here.

Self is just here like the air, it doesn't need to be got to. It's not a

matter of

killing the mind, it's the mind surrendering willingly, dying while living,

which

takes trust and love. The mind must hear the call of Self, I don't know how that

happens. Reading discussing and talking about it increase the likelyhood, like

standing around in open fields during thunderstorms increase the likelyhood of

being

struck by lightning.

 

love, andrew

 

> Tony's ans:

> That's what I didn't like about NDS it really was

> almost a massive wharehouse full of all kind of tools,

> and everybody vying to show how many they can use and

> how to use them, but forgetting that the field still

> has to be ploughed. In a way I am lucky that I am not

> a university graduate.

>

> The mind cannot die anymore than your nightly dream

> can stop itself, it can only purify itself.

>

 

The mind can offer itself willingly in love and trust.

Dreams naturally end when they are complete, like stories, or rivers when they

reach

the sea, or any thing, or the mind.

 

Definitely it's easy to think 'too much'. I'm not a

university graduate either, not that it makes any difference.

 

andrew

[Guest guest]

 

andrew macnab [a.macnab]

Friday, February 11, 2000 2:04 PM

Re: The last piece of the jigsaw and intellect.

 

Andrew:

The mind can offer itself willingly in love and trust.

Dreams naturally end when they are complete, like stories, or rivers when

they reach

the sea, or any thing, or the mind.

 

 

 

Beautifully stated Andrew. All things have a natural beginning and a natural

ending.

 

Harsha