Mind and the Self

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennis:

 

You raise some important issues about the mind and the Self and how these

terms are used and I will forward this to as well. The answer

to questions you ask is simple but experiential Dennis. The intellectual

discussions are indeed in vain without enquiry and Realization. Such

discussions may lead to confusion and not clarity unless one is encouraged

to directly become aware and recognize the truth in one's own Heart. There

are so many different ways of expressing the same thing which appear to be

contrary before the dawn of understanding. Therefore, one should firmly

grasp the truth of awareness and know it to be one's very being.

>From one perspective, the mind truly does not exist independent of the Self.

It is Light of Self that animates the mind. Therefore Self-Realization

implies the absence of the mind and what remains is Only Self Seeing It Self

by It Self through It Self. Self-Realized sages know the Nature of the Self

without the intermediary of the mind. So when we speak of the mind existing

as an independent and permanent entity, the Sages rightly point out that

that there is indeed no such thing from their direct experience. Only a

Self-Realized sage can fully grasp this as it is direct knowledge.

 

However, another way to look at this is that Self not only animates the mind

but is indeed the source of the mind. Those who have experienced Nirvikalpa

Samadhi can understand this clearly. Sri Ramana has stated beautifully that

the "mind is a wondrous power arising out of the Self." A mind fully turned

upon itself indeed is recognized as the Self in the Heart as the Heart as

Pure Being." This means that the power that is the mind, when it turns back

into itself without the hindrance of thoughts and concepts, the Self is

Realized. So from this perspective one can say that the Self can be seen by

the Mind Alone.

 

In the first perspective mind is being viewed as a collection of thoughts,

feeling, concepts, etc. There, it is proper to say that Self can be seen by

the Self Alone. That is indeed the Truth. In the second perspective, the

mind is being viewed as the power of the Self that arises from the Self and

disappears back into it. In this perspective one can say the Mind Sees the

Self as It Self. This is the Truth. These two Truth are One Truth.

 

Harsha

 

 

 

Dennis Waite [dwaite]

Friday, February 11, 2000 12:33 PM

'advaitin '

Mind and the Self

 

Dennis Waite <dwaite

 

Whilst doing some background research for a chapter about 'thinking' (see

my biography post), I encountered some statements from Sankara in his

commentary on the Bhagavad Gita (II 20). The section is called "Knowledge

of the Immutable Self is possible" There is an 'Objection', then an

'Answer' followed by an 'Opponent' and another 'Answer'. In is this second

interchange, the 'Opponent' says "Because the Self is inaccessible to any

of the senses". Sha~Nkara's reply begins: - "Not so. For, the Scripture

says 'It can be seen by the mind alone.'" etc. This is supposed to be a

translation of the shloka from the BrU. but unfortuantely, there didn't

seem to be any further clarification.

 

Now my belief regarding the mind is that (ignoring the fact that it, along

with every 'thing' else in the universe, is ultimately an illusion) it is

so much grosser than the Self that it could never 'see' it in any real

sense. This is all in accord with Kant's effectively proving that the

noumenal is forever beyond our perception.

 

I put this to Francis Lucille and his response was that "If Sankara says

that, which I doubt, (there might be a problem with the translation of the

word mind), he is wrong. The Self can be seen by the Self alone. The mind

has no access to that which sees the mind. Only the Self sees the Self."

And I am bound to agree. This being the case, how do we explain Sankara's

statements? Is it the case that his words have been mis-translated? (This

is from the Samata Books version, translated by Alladi Mahadeva Sastry. It

would seem surprising if it were wrong.) Any Sanskrit scholars out there

with the original Sanskrit? Also, what does the BrU shloka mean? (I will

endeavour to look up Sankara's commentary on this in London tomorrow.)

 

I put the question to the Advaita List. Sankaran Jayanarayanan gave a rough

translation of the BrU shloka as follows: -

 

"With my meagre knowledge of Sanskrit, this is what I'm able to make of the

quote from the Br. up.:

manasA eva anudrashhTavyam.h na iha naanaasti kiMchana. mR^ityoH sa

mR^ityuM aapnoti ya iha naanaa eva pashyati .

"There truly isn't any multiplicity here observed by the mind.

Whosoever sees multiplicity here achieves death after death."

Here is a rough word by word meaning:

manasA : by the mind

eva : only, truly, verily

anudrashhTavyam.h : observation

na: no

iha: here

naanaa : several, multiplicity

kiMchana : any, even a little

mR^ityu : death

aapnoti : achieve

ya : who"

 

Saying that the mind does not see any multiplicity is certainly similar to

saying that it sees the Self but not quite (is it?). What does the previous

shloka say? i.e. what is the here (iha) that is being referred to?

The previous shloka reads: -

prANasya prANam.h uta cakshhushhash.h uta shrotrasya shrotram.h

manaso ye mano viduH, te nicikyur.h brahma purANam.h agryam.h

 

Sankaran Jayanarayanan also noted that : -

 

'I was puzzled by something similar in Ramana's teachings. Ramana has said

several times that the mind does not exist, as does Shankara in his

upadeshasAhasrii. But in one specific place in "Talks," Ramana says, "The

mind is the Self." And later into the conversation with the disciple, he

says, "It is the mind turned in on Itself.'

 

I think someone else pointed out (or perhaps I located it in my background

reading - I can't remember) that Ramana also said "The mind turned outward

is the ego; turned inward it is the Self." Clearly this way of looking at

things might help explain the statements.

 

What does the List think?

 

Dennis

 

 

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