Guest guest Posted February 12, 2000 Report Share Posted February 12, 2000 Namaste All, Bruce wrote:- >I agree, grasping nonduality conceptually is not anywhere near the same as actual nondual realization and often comprises the final and most formidable barrier to it. However, if I may be so bold, where the heck do you get the nerve to assume that those who attempt to point toward the nondual in a careful, "intellectual" way of writing are stuck in "a massive reinforced intellectual giant Ego thought?" Do you see the possibility of your own ego being involved in this judgement via a sort of reverse intellectual snobbery?< Tony's ans: hahahahahah! The Upanishads seem to contradict each other depending on the 'seer', and the time. Ultimately of course they don't, however they are subject to translations. Manas means mind, which mind? Or does it mean all levels of mind? Mano or Vijnana? Ramana seems to use mind and ego as meaning the same thing. Without ego there is no mind and without mind there is no ego. Let us assume two positions; 1. All is ultimately illusion, there is no mind and it didn't ever happen. The ultimate Truth! 2. We live in illusion and there is a relative reality to be dealt with. Whether we think that it arises as we perceive it or we think it is 'created', we still have to deal with, whilst we are 'unrealised'. Considering illusion, there is a projection or appearance on the Self. This is Saguna. There is the universal Mahat or universal 'I', and then there is the individual small 'I', or ego/ ahamkara. It is simple there is 1.Nirguna Brahman, 2.there is Saguna Brahman, 3.there is it's power and projection of Prana/Sakti. We at present are not realised Nirguna Brahman, nor Saguna Brahman. However we are a 'part', of the Sakti/Prana. Therefore it is possible to realise that we are Prana/Sakti, we cannot become Saguna Brahman, for 'realisation', skips and takes us to Nirguna Brahman. However this cannot be done without the 'Grace', of Saguna Brahman/The Dreamer that dreams us. Its projection or appearance. " Somewhere there is a dream dreaming us". San Kalahari Bushman saying.-Leakey. (Most are illiterate hunter gatherers.) I suppose what I am saying without quoting any scriptures etc is that; Yes we are Nirguna, but we are a thought of Saguna, relatively. If we don't have the final Grace of Saguna, or do not reach that ultimate level then we will become either, a very strong singular ego thought of non-duality, on the one hand and on the other if were full of Love we would become a thought in its most ephemeral state and then it would be subsumed and finally destroyed at Mahapralaya. The non-dual thought would only remerge as ego in the post-pralaya. Perhaps as ripe fruit! Overripe? Ha ha ha ha ! Love and Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. ===== http://members.xoom.com/aoclery/sanskritglos.htm ASATHO MA SATH GAMAYA, From the unreal lead me to the real, THAMASO MA JYOTHIR GAMAYA, From darkness, lead me to light, MRITHYOR MA AMRITAM GAMAYA.From death, lead me to immortality. OM, SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI. Om, Peace Peace Peace. Talk to your friends online with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2000 Report Share Posted February 12, 2000 On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:54:52 -0800 (PST) Tony O'Clery <aoclery writes: > Tony O'Clery <aoclery > > Namaste All, > > Bruce wrote:- > >I agree, grasping nonduality > conceptually is not anywhere > near the same as actual > nondual realization and often > comprises the final and most > formidable barrier to it. > However, if I may be so bold, > where the heck do you get the > nerve to assume that those > who attempt to point toward > the nondual in a careful, > "intellectual" way of writing > are stuck in "a massive > reinforced intellectual giant > Ego thought?" Do you see the > possibility of your own ego > being involved in this > judgement via a sort of > reverse intellectual > snobbery?< > > Tony's ans: hahahahahah! > > The Upanishads seem to contradict each other depending > on the 'seer', and the time. Ultimately of course they > don't, however they are subject to translations. > > Manas means mind, which mind? Or does it mean all > levels of mind? Mano or Vijnana? > > Ramana seems to use mind and ego as meaning the same > thing. Without ego there is no mind and without mind > there is no ego. > > Let us assume two positions; 1. All is ultimately > illusion, there is no mind and it didn't ever happen. > The ultimate Truth! > > 2. We live in illusion and there is a relative reality > to be dealt with. > Whether we think that it arises as we perceive it or > we think it is 'created', we still have to deal with, > whilst we are 'unrealised'. > > Considering illusion, there is a projection or > appearance on the Self. This is Saguna. > > There is the universal Mahat or universal 'I', and > then there is the individual small 'I', or ego/ > ahamkara. > > It is simple there is 1.Nirguna Brahman, 2.there is > Saguna Brahman, 3.there is it's power and projection > of Prana/Sakti. > > We at present are not realised Nirguna Brahman, nor > Saguna Brahman. However we are a 'part', of the > Sakti/Prana. > > Therefore it is possible to realise that we are > Prana/Sakti, we cannot become Saguna Brahman, for > 'realisation', skips and takes us to Nirguna Brahman. > However this cannot be done without the 'Grace', of > Saguna Brahman/The Dreamer that dreams us. Its > projection or appearance. > > " Somewhere there is a dream dreaming us". San > Kalahari Bushman saying.-Leakey. (Most are illiterate > hunter gatherers.) > > I suppose what I am saying without quoting any > scriptures etc is that; Yes we are Nirguna, but we > are a thought of Saguna, relatively. > > If we don't have the final Grace of Saguna, or do not > reach that ultimate level then we will become either, > a very strong singular ego thought of non-duality, on > the one hand and on the other if were full of Love we > would become a thought in its most ephemeral state and > then it would be subsumed and finally destroyed at > Mahapralaya. The non-dual thought would only remerge > as ego in the post-pralaya. Perhaps as ripe fruit! > > Overripe? Ha ha ha ha ! > > Love and Om Namah Sivaya, Tony. > Tony, I address you as a brother and suggest a simple exercise. Forget every ancient scripture and every learned commentary you've ever read. Forget every bit of Sanskrit and every fragment of "spiritual" terminology you've absorbed over the past few decades. Forget your self-image as a sincere, humble, studious spiritual aspirant. Forget everything I've ever written to you, especially this post. If you find the above rather difficult, perhaps even impossible, do consider that you may well be every bit as much of an "intellectual" or "non-dual roundabout" as the many whose discourse you've slapped those labels on. Much love -- Bruce http://come.to/realization http://www.atman.net/realization http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2000 Report Share Posted February 12, 2000 Heaven forefend, Joyce, one of each of us is more than enough! :-) I have every confidence that Tony can implement the exercise and retain his wondrous and unique Tonyness -- fear not! Much love -- Bruce On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:22:46 -0500 "Joyce Short" <insight writes: > "Joyce Short" <insight > > > Well, Bruce - if Tony follows your advice he'll turn into you and > then Id miss him - Joyce > > Tony, I address you as a > > brother and suggest a simple > > exercise. Forget every > > ancient scripture and every > > learned commentary you've > > ever read. Forget every bit > > of Sanskrit and every > > fragment of "spiritual" > > terminology you've absorbed > > over the past few decades. > > Forget your self-image as a > > sincere, humble, studious > > spiritual aspirant. Forget > > everything I've ever written > > to you, especially this post. > > If you find the above rather > > difficult, perhaps even > > impossible, do consider that > > you may well be every bit as > > much of an "intellectual" or > > "non-dual roundabout" as the > > many whose discourse you've > > slapped those labels on. > > > > Much love -- Bruce > > > > > > http://come.to/realization > > http://www.atman.net/realization > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm > > http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm > > > > ______________ > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor > ---------------------------- > > > > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 > percent > > Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards > > Points, no hidden fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get > the > > credit you deserve. Apply now. Get your NextCard Visa at > > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative1 ">Click > Here</a> > > > > > ------ > > > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, > sights, > > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in > and subside > > back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than > > the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of > > Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. > It is > > Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the > Finality > > of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of > Self-Knowledge, > > spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to > a. > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor > ---------------------------- > > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. ZERO. Rates as low as 0.0 > percent Intro APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no > hidden > fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get the credit you > deserve. > Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at > <a href=" http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative6 ">Click > Here</a> > > ------ > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, > perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and > subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not > different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of > the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is > always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know > the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee > relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from > within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2000 Report Share Posted February 13, 2000 In a message dated 02/12/2000 1:33:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, insight writes: > Well, Bruce - if Tony follows your advice he'll turn into you and then Id > miss him - Joyce Hi Joyce, Bruce, Tony, and All... Enjoying the chat on this subject. I laughed at this statement, it hit me so funny. (good one!) I realized this is such a great fear of mine -- that we will lose our own individuality and identity if I accept my own realization. I pondered on this fear to see what was truly true. During realization, although observing all things through the one mind, and all were the same (Tony looked liked Bruce and Joyce and me and the wall - all were light instead of form), my identity and individuality was still there. How can that be? (I asked myself) I began doubting my own realization, that it was a true realization, since identity and individuality were not lost. It has just been recently that I realized I was looking through the eyes of the One Mind, rather than my body's eyes, which I was observing. No wonder thoughts were outside of me! I observed everyone and everything, through one big eyeball (it seemed). I still knew me. I still was me, my thoughts, my feelings, my perceptions, although now they were not IN me, my body's mind. They were all a part OF me. Another's body was not outside of me, but a part of me, within this One Mind. They looked the same -- all light, but I knew who was who and what was what. Why? Because I know that all is light, but each light is but a perception I had formed and molded into the Tony's, the Bruce's, the Joyce's, that we all know and love... or hate. My thoughts about each one is what formed the perception -- and my thoughts were right there to behold -- not in form, but in light. Thoughts ARE things! I didn't create their body, but I did create how I perceived them. I know I've read here that you do lose your identity and individuality upon realization -- and I will remain open minded on that -- but I offer another way of seeing. We do not lose this identity and individuality - it is impossible! Why? Because the One Mind is but our own. Everyone and everything we ever thought about anyone is in it. We each have a One mind of our own. Of course, I could be wrong. LOL Much Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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