freewill and emptiness

[Guest guest]

 

andrew macnab <a.macnab

NondualitySalon <NondualitySalon >

Sunday, February 13, 2000 10:12 AM

[NondualitySalon] Re:free will Larry/Petros

 

>andrew macnab <a.macnab

>

>Petros wrote:

>>

>> "Petros" <xristos

>>

>> > LBIDD (Larry Biddinger)

>> >

>> > The Buddhists emphasize free will a lot.

>>

>> I disagree. I don't think the concept is that important in Buddhism.

>>

>> > Because this causes that, that

>> > can be stopped by stopping this. Because clinging and craving cause

>> > suffering, suffering can be stopped by stopping clinging and craving, to

>> > put it somewhat crudely.

>>

>> True observation, but it does not require free will.

>>

>> IMO, not being a scholar in the subject, the crux of Buddhist philosophy is

>> the observation called "dependent origination." Similar to the Hindu idea

>> of the "net of jewels," it implies a totally interconnected cosmos,

>> everything effecting everything else. In terms of "liberation," it means

>> that liberation (like everything else) happens in its own timeframe (not

>> "predetermined"); it happens when it happens. This idea can dovetail with

>> more religious concepts of surrender, acceptance, and so forth; and it is a

>> close cousin to the idea of Nonduality. Call it nonduality in motion.

>>

>> > I don't recall reading anything about free will

>> > starting or stopping. Will seems to be related to want and it also has

>> > the perspective of being somewhat outside the flow of events. Some would

>> > say it is what makes people different from machines. What's wrong with

>> > free will? I like free will. What are you people doing over there in

>> > Australia???

>> >

>> > equally curious, Larry

>>

>> I don't know if people are any different from machines, really.

>>

>

>Ultimately, Ramana Maharshi has it right in this bit Gloria quoted a couple of

days

>ago;

>

>There is neither creation nor destruction,

>Neither destiny nor free-will;

>Neither path nor achievement;

>This is the final truth. -Sri Ramana Maharshi

>

>But in the meantime :^) ... Freewill is fundamental to Buddhism, determinism is

called

>an erroneous teaching. The assertion is made that people are not bound by

causes, we

>are free in the sense that all fetters are of our own making, and we are

capable of

>casting them off by ourselves. Not looking to anyone or anything external to

myself.

>This is where Sankara and Gotama disagree I think.

>

>love, andrew

>

Glo:

Thank you, Andrew. I was hoping Greg would say more to clear this up, too.

Sometimes in my inarticulate way, I seem to only further muddy the waters. I

think free will as an aspect of an ultimately mythical individual selfhood does

dissolve with death (in the meantime it is part of the" felt and existing"

samskaras) or "my will" is renounced prior by disidentification and surrender.

If and when one is able to perceive the Tao and be in harmony with it, one may

experience a relatively "choiceless awareness" of flowing and surrender to the

moment. This is beautiful to know as a perception of reality here and now.

(Hooray for Annie!) This assumes a lack of desire/aversion is happening. I have

known this grace at times, and no way do I want to rain on her parade.

 

However, to teach, as a doctrine, that man is or ought to be always passive

(especially before realization!) because he is totally 100% determined and has

no will..this leads to errors of thinking and practice. It may be a more subtle

and rarified response to overly cling to emptiness, but it is equally a negation

of truth. I cannot presume to speak for Buddhism or Ramana, but the phrase

"neither destiny" would seem to negate any concept of predestination. It is good

to recognize causes and conditionings as they do exist and occur, but to claim

that is "all there is" to the extent of actually eliminating oneself as an agent

of causation? This attributes power of causation to every "thing" except a human

being. Are we not included in this mutual arising of interdependent causation?

Where else is freedom to be found, if not on that razor-edge of

surrender/resistance within this moment? Yet what is possible here in this

moment, if not creation itself? To embrace emptiness to the extent of rejecting

or ignoring phenomenal existence is simply choosing one side of the duality.

Paradox may be useful for attempting to express such ideas as existence is

emptiness, emptiness is existence. To "be" a living paradox is to see and

experience the mutual coexistence between both. Even the experience of freedom

from ego depends on there having been ego, phenomenally speaking. What is one

dis-identifying with? Isn't my albeit temporary self equally a manifestation of

this emptiness along with the rest of existence?

 

The truth is more like that they cannot be separated, except hypothetically. The

error in practice occurs when the intellectual "fact" of emptiness is singled

out for emphasis, excluding "unwelcome" aspects like the ethical precepts or

right actions. Thus, particularly in the West, we get a form of "elite Buddhism"

which selects out meditation and "enlightenment" and ignores the basics like the

ethical precepts of the eightfold path. Realization becomes exclusively the

teaching of doctrinal thought without the values deeply embedded within the

Buddha's overall path. Knowing the concept of emptiness of self is not the same

as the experiential elimination of ego. Once one actually IS empty of ego, what

is the need for restraints on ego or one's will?

 

So, as Dan keeps pointing out, when a person is experiencing suffering..to

diagnose to them that it's all their fault because they have failed to eliminate

ego or to prescribe to them all is empty so there is no one actually

suffering..is not only useless, but unkind. The use of "truth" as a weapon is a

misuse. Compassion begins with the acknowledgement of suffering in life. Truth

without compassion is a very incomplete wisdom. Knowing where one is on this

pathless path seems quite crucial to communication.

 

I am very happy for all of you who are past this experience of ego struggles in

your awareness. I love to read all the descriptions here, so keep 'em coming!!

 

With love,

Glo