Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 Dear Moller, Thank you for your (I think) complimentary reaction to my writing. You raise an important question, which I will do my best to answer clearly. I wonder also, how would you answer your own question? First, let me give you a framework for the way I speak, which tends to sound abstract (because Truth is far from simply concrete); then, I'll give the more direct answer you seem to ask for. I really don't find useful a contrast between a dual perspective and a nondual perspective. Such contrast makes nonduality into a dualistic topic of debate and perhaps even into a commodity. Nonduality isn't a perspective. It's not something that's contrasted with something else. To say it in positive words, and it's not really an affirmable positive: It's nothing other than very Reality, here and now, beyond thought. It seems the most appropriate question, then, is not whether "Dan" has experienced a "nondual perspective" but whether there is Awareness beyond thought. Awareness beyond thought is not "my" experience as opposed to someone "else's" - it's simply pure experience, as it is, not partitioned by thought or personal history. Possibly you think I'm being tricky by answering in this way. Your way of asking this makes it sound like a yes or no question, such as, "have you been to the beach?" Your question reminds me of Jimi Hendrix's song, "Are you experienced?" It also reminds me of the well-known question that was asked to the senator, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" (a question that won't have a "good" answer if responded to with yes or no). However, I do hear what you're saying. Simply, straightforwardly: Have I experienced no-thought - Yes. Have I experienced Silence beyond the silence of an intentionally stilled mind - Yes. Do I know first-hand Reality beyond thought? Yes. Am I an ordinary person dealing with day to day life issues just like everyone else? Yes. Can this present awareness infinitely "deepen"? Yes. Can this timeless Reality endlessly release thought-constraints? Yes. Am I still "working" on It? Yes (although such work is play, and isn't something that a "me" is doing). Do "I" have "ups and downs" in this "work"? Yes. Sometimes it's crystal clear and other times there's awareness of "issues continuing to be worked through" as we psychologists tend to say. Both aspects of the work I consider important (the ever-present silent clarity and the "human" working-through). The reason I don't usually talk about "my" experience is that such talk tends to create a dualistic focus - what has one person experienced vs. what has another person experienced. I don't consider that focus particularly helpful, although there's legitimacy to such questions. The Reality is omnipresent. It's not less here and more there. It's not realized by a person, it "flowers" in expression *as* all people. When individuals talk too much about what is "my" experience, a dependence on language is evoked, and a sense of personality possessing an experience occurs. Reality is not in the realm of experiences possessed by persons (which inevitably is conceptual). Hopefully, I've responded to your question appropriately. As for the role of intellect - intellect is useful to prepare thought to open up to what is beyond thought - Reality isn't in thought - thought arises within Reality -- thought ends its maintanence of a center, opening to Reality without this center. This center, once ended, is ended endlessly. Trying to "be" against thought, trying to live apart from thought doesn't truly dissolve thought's center. Emotions, sensations, are thought-based realities as well as cognitive thinking. The opening of thought involves surrender of the being to what is beyond itself; this occurs not through cleverness, but through awareness that such openness is urgent and unavoidable. Thanks for your feedback, Moller. Love, Dan At 09:01 AM 2/19/00 +0200, you wrote: >J M de la Rouviere <moller > >Dear Dan, > >You are either just a great intellect enjoying combatting the finer >intellectual arguments of the 'non-dual' perspective which such a mind can >integrate, refine and reproduce, very cleverly, or > >you are talking from the disposition of non-dual reality. > >May i please ask you this: Without your usual clever arguments about words >and so on, which of the two are you? > >I really respect what you write. You are VERY clear in the way you describe >things. But because I sense that you are not describing the non-dualistic >condition from that 'perspective' (as your own living truth) but rather >from an intellectual perspective, I would appreciate your truthfulness in >this matter. > >Or is this an unfair question? > >Love and appreciation, > >Moller. > Message----- >Dan Berkow, PhD <berkowd > < > >19 February 2000 02:35 > Re: what "Dan" says about silence > > >>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >> >>At 03:40 PM 2/18/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar >>> >>>Roger Isaacs wrote: >>> >>>> Dan says "One can't still the mind sufficiently" >>>> >>>> I think we can agree that the mind can be stilled. Everyone has >experienced >>>> a relatively stiller mind at various times? But how to accomplish this >is >>>> THE question. >> >>D: Well, that's not exactly what Dan says. It's an interpretation >> of what Dan said. And who is Dan? Dan is a name hung on a body. >> The body is ever-changing as energy constantly moves through >> its space. It's merely an apparent pattern, and the pattern, observed >> closely, is never static, constantly novel. According to "Dan" >> what you call THE question, is not "Dan's" THE question at all. >> Dan's THE question is "what is the stillness that is before mind >> and body, which doesn't depend on any intention, isn't an achievement, >> and has nothing to do with comparison of one state with another?" >> >> It's not that "one can't still the mind sufficiently" according >> to this present Dan (the Dan which is the current configuration of >> ever-changing patterning here). There is no separate one to still >> a separate mind. The silence of the mind that has been stilled >> by a thought-entity is a conditional silence. It depends on >> suppression and depends on achieving a conceptual goal of >> a "silent mind". This conceptual goal is formed by comparison. >> There is a totally different kind of silence, Roger. It's not >> a silence formed by an intentional attempt to quiet the mind. >> It's the silence that pre-exists any concept, any formation of >> a mind. That silence is before the beginning, is present, >> and will be after the end. That silence is All. The stillness >> of that all is nothing like the silence of the mind that has >> been quieted. This is what "Dan" meant to say. Hope that >> "Roger" hears "Dan". The silence of the quieted mind is conditional >> and temporary and isn't a stepping stone to Original Silence. >> Original Silence simply is, without any observing entity. >> >> Love, >> Dan >> >> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >> >>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 percent >>Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards >>Points, no hidden fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get the >>credit you deserve. Apply now. Get your NextCard Visa at >><a href=" http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative1 ">Click Here</a> >> >>------ >> >>// >> >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. >> >>To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> www., and select the User Center link from >the menu bar >> on the left. This menu will also let you change your >subscription >> between digest and normal mode. >> >> >> >> > > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Shop the web for great deals. Save on Computers, >electronics, Home furnishings and more. ><a href=" http://clickme./ad/Dealtime ">Click Here</a> > >------ > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 Dear Dan, Thank you most sincerely for your frank and very beautiful reply to my request. If this Satsangh is going to be of any use to anyone, it will ultimately serve its purpose through the honesty and openness you have been prepared to share with us about yourself. Allow me just this: I think we must make an agreement here. Just assume that all of us have worked through, and are well aware of the dualistic nature of language and the great difficulty using a subject/object-dominated medium for trying to come to terms with the subtle issues around the question of non-duality. Otherwise we can never really get off the ground. We will for ever explain our explanations in order to satisfy the logic of the language and in the process very often obscure the clarity of our insights. I think it is the latter we all wish to communicate and not the language. So please bear with me if I use dualistically sounding, and logically improper terms and expressions. Please try and look beyond the exactness of my words to the message I am trying to convey. English is not my home language, so as it is I find writing in it rather labourious and somewhat difficult. Let me try to walk with you on some of the things you have said: >I really don't find useful a contrast between a dual >perspective and a nondual perspective. Such contrast >makes nonduality into a dualistic topic of debate and >perhaps even into a commodity. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to distinguish between that which gives the sense of duality and that which is non-dual. From the perspective of duality things ARE dual. For the 'I' in the i-conscious state, this sepaparte self-sense is very real. Now if no-one has ever told me that there is such a possibility of not-I, this state would be real for as long as it is present. As a psychologist you must be very aware of how this separate self-sense creates a vast and intricate network of psychological complications in your patients/clients. Now if the 'I' was not real, then these complications could not have been so real as they actually are to these people (and if I may say, to all of us). So from the perspective of the 'I', or separate self-sense, duality is big and very real. However, there seems to be some people for whom this 'I' thing has lost its reality factor. They may not be without it, but they may recognise each momentary appearance of the I-sense as just another happening in the vast ocean of non-dual manifestation. So the 'I', like all other diversity, has the same fate from this 'perspective'. It has no true separate status. So I think from the above we can perhaps legitimately discuss duality and non-duality. In fact, we have to agree on something before we discuss 'it'. We cannot start out by denying ourselves the existing truth (however false this may be from the wholistic perspective) of duality. If we can please agree to this, we may be able to have very constructive discussions on the ways and means of allowing for the movement of wholeness to become our living reality. This is anyhow of profoundly more interest to those struggling in the field of duality (Samsara) than for us to keep making ultimate statements (however true) about the non-dual condition. You also mentioned: >Possibly you think I'm being tricky by answering in >this way. Your way of asking this makes it sound >like a yes or no question, such as, "have you >been to the beach?" I deliberately asked it in that way. And in a way you have answered it in such a way - for which I am very thankful. Now I have the sense that, like me, you are somewhere in between, struggling with this thing with passion and integrity. Dan: Do "I" have "ups and downs" in this "work"? Yes. Sometimes > it's crystal clear and other times there's awareness > of "issues continuing to be worked through" as we psychologists > tend to say. Both aspects of the work I consider important > (the ever-present silent clarity and the "human" working-through). > (Moller) Yes Dan, I think this is VERY important. The way I see the process unfolding, is that the whole thing has to collapse finally into the wholeness of being. If non-duality is the case, duality cannot be. And psychology cannot produce its reality projections and complications, and be experienced as reality ( as is the case with most of us) , in the non-dual condition. This reality of psychology must be seen as one of the most fundamental building blocks of the dualistic world-view. And this psychological reality cannot be by-passed or negated in the drive 'towards' non-duality. It must be transcended or it will maintain its stranglehold on the individual. So I see work on this level of being as an integral part of the relaxation of the knot of the separate 'I'. You asked me about myself. I have partially approached this in a posting to Harsha. Let me please say that I see in myself two processes at work. On the one hand there is Moller, the conditioned, undeveloped, creature. Then also present is something blasting its way through everything which seems to come in the way of the realisation of non-duality. What is bad in me, I can clearly define as myself. What is good in me, unfortunately for my ego, I cannot account for. Now, as time has moved on and the things of youth are beginning to be seen for the extravagant waste of prescious time, this 'other' side is slowly gaining the upper hand. I am seeing signs of softness, gentleness, honesty and even integrity beginning to become true of my life. This is very beautiful, because it is for me a sign that this process is actually working. And although soft, it has not lost its ruthless attack and insights on that which is false.And this gives me hope to get up and sign on for each day. As time goes by we all will get to know one another better. I think Harsha is great. You have really endeared yourself to me. Thank you for that. Love , Moller. Dan Berkow, PhD <berkowd < > 20 February 2000 03:48 Re: Moller/what "Dan" says about silence >"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd > >Dear Moller, >Thank you for your (I think) complimentary reaction >to my writing. You raise an important question, which >I will do my best to answer clearly. I wonder also, how >would you answer your own question? > >First, let me give you a framework >for the way I speak, which tends to sound >abstract (because Truth is far from simply concrete); >then, I'll give the more direct answer you seem to ask for. > > >Nonduality isn't a perspective. >It's not something that's contrasted with something else. > >To say it in positive words, and it's not really an affirmable >positive: It's nothing other than very Reality, >here and now, beyond thought. > >It seems the most appropriate question, then, is not whether >"Dan" has experienced a "nondual perspective" >but whether there is Awareness beyond thought. >Awareness beyond thought is not "my" experience >as opposed to someone "else's" - it's simply >pure experience, as it is, not partitioned by >thought or personal history. > Your question reminds me >of Jimi Hendrix's song, "Are you experienced?" >It also reminds me of the well-known question >that was asked to the senator, "Have you >stopped beating your wife?" (a question that > won't have a "good" answer if responded to with > yes or no). > >However, I do hear what you're saying. >Simply, straightforwardly: >Have I experienced no-thought - Yes. >Have I experienced Silence beyond > the silence of an intentionally stilled > mind - Yes. >Do I know first-hand Reality beyond thought? Yes. >Am I an ordinary person dealing > with day to day life issues just like > everyone else? Yes. >Can this present awareness infinitely "deepen"? Yes. >Can this timeless Reality endlessly release thought-constraints? Yes. >Am I still "working" on It? Yes (although such work is play, and > isn't something that a "me" is doing). >>The reason I don't usually talk about "my" experience >is that such talk tends to create a dualistic focus - >what has one person experienced vs. >what has another person experienced. >I don't consider that focus particularly >helpful, although there's legitimacy to such >questions. The Reality is omnipresent. It's not >less here and more there. It's not realized by >a person, it "flowers" in expression *as* all people. >When individuals talk too much about what is "my" experience, >a dependence on language is evoked, and a sense >of personality possessing an experience occurs. >Reality is not in the realm of experiences possessed > by persons (which inevitably is conceptual). > >Hopefully, I've responded to your question >appropriately. As for the role of intellect - >intellect is useful to prepare thought >to open up to what is beyond thought - >Reality isn't in thought - thought arises >within Reality -- thought ends its maintanence >of a center, opening to Reality without this >center. This center, once ended, is ended >endlessly. Trying to "be" against thought, trying to live >apart from thought doesn't truly dissolve >thought's center. Emotions, sensations, are >thought-based realities as well as cognitive thinking. >The opening of thought involves surrender >of the being to what is beyond itself; >this occurs not through cleverness, but >through awareness that such openness is >urgent and unavoidable. Thanks for your >feedback, Moller. > >Love, >Dan > >At 09:01 AM 2/19/00 +0200, you wrote: >>J M de la Rouviere <moller >> >>Dear Dan, >> >>You are either just a great intellect enjoying combatting the finer >>intellectual arguments of the 'non-dual' perspective which such a mind can >>integrate, refine and reproduce, very cleverly, or >> >>you are talking from the disposition of non-dual reality. >> >>May i please ask you this: Without your usual clever arguments about words >>and so on, which of the two are you? >> >>I really respect what you write. You are VERY clear in the way you describe >>things. But because I sense that you are not describing the non-dualistic >>condition from that 'perspective' (as your own living truth) but rather >>from an intellectual perspective, I would appreciate your truthfulness in >>this matter. >> >>Or is this an unfair question? >> >>Love and appreciation, >> >>Moller. >> Message----- >>Dan Berkow, PhD <berkowd >> < > >>19 February 2000 02:35 >> Re: what "Dan" says about silence >> >> >>>"Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd >>> >>>At 03:40 PM 2/18/00 -0500, you wrote: >>>>"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar >>>> >>>>Roger Isaacs wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dan says "One can't still the mind sufficiently" >>>>> >>>>> I think we can agree that the mind can be stilled. Everyone has >>experienced >>>>> a relatively stiller mind at various times? But how to accomplish this >>is >>>>> THE question. >>> >>>D: Well, that's not exactly what Dan says. It's an interpretation >>> of what Dan said. And who is Dan? Dan is a name hung on a body. >>> The body is ever-changing as energy constantly moves through >>> its space. It's merely an apparent pattern, and the pattern, observed >>> closely, is never static, constantly novel. According to "Dan" >>> what you call THE question, is not "Dan's" THE question at all. >>> Dan's THE question is "what is the stillness that is before mind >>> and body, which doesn't depend on any intention, isn't an achievement, >>> and has nothing to do with comparison of one state with another?" >>> >>> It's not that "one can't still the mind sufficiently" according >>> to this present Dan (the Dan which is the current configuration of >>> ever-changing patterning here). There is no separate one to still >>> a separate mind. The silence of the mind that has been stilled >>> by a thought-entity is a conditional silence. It depends on >>> suppression and depends on achieving a conceptual goal of >>> a "silent mind". This conceptual goal is formed by comparison. >>> There is a totally different kind of silence, Roger. It's not >>> a silence formed by an intentional attempt to quiet the mind. >>> It's the silence that pre-exists any concept, any formation of >>> a mind. That silence is before the beginning, is present, >>> and will be after the end. That silence is All. The stillness >>> of that all is nothing like the silence of the mind that has >>> been quieted. This is what "Dan" meant to say. Hope that >>> "Roger" hears "Dan". The silence of the quieted mind is conditional >>> and temporary and isn't a stepping stone to Original Silence. >>> Original Silence simply is, without any observing entity. >>> >>> Love, >>> Dan >>> >>> >>>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >>> >>>Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa. Rates as low as 2.9 percent >>>Intro or 9.9 percent Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards >>>Points, no hidden fees, and much more. Get NextCard today and get the >>>credit you deserve. Apply now. Get your NextCard Visa at >>><a href=" http://clickme./ad/NextcardCreative1 ">Click Here</a> >>> >>>------ >>> >>>// >>> >>>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >>perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >>back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >>the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. >>Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is >>where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal >>Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously >>arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. >>> >>>To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >>> www., and select the User Center link from >>the menu bar >>> on the left. This menu will also let you change your >>subscription >>> between digest and normal mode. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- >> >>Shop the web for great deals. Save on Computers, >>electronics, Home furnishings and more. >><a href=" http://clickme./ad/Dealtime ">Click Here</a> >> >>------ >> >>// >> >>All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, >perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside >back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than >the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of >Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is >Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality >of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, >spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to >a. >> >>To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at >> www., and select the User Center link from >the menu bar >> on the left. This menu will also let you change your >subscription >> between digest and normal mode. >> >> >> >> >> > > >------ >What's the coolest new Web resource? It's the AskMe Page, which allows you >to have your own Q&A platform, interact with peers and earn rewards! It's >simple, fun & FREE! Get it now! >http://click./1/1459/2/_/_/_/951011251/ >------ > >// > >All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > >To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 Bonjour M. de la Rouvière, Bienvenu en cet étrange monde où les mots peuvent parfois retrouver l'intégralité, la consistance et la douceur de la chair même. Ils s'éclatent comme autant de feux d'artifices explosant dans un ciel étoilé et nous pénètrent comme le reflet de ce ciel enflammé sur une mer tranquille. Je suis enchanté, Antoine J M de la Rouviere wrote: > As time goes by we all will get to know one another better. I think Harsha is great. You (Dan) have really endeared yourself to me. Thank you for that. > > Love , > > Moller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 Dear Antoine, Allow me to apologise that despite my French surname, I am not French speaking. I am South African by birth and my surname comes from the French Hugonot's who arrived here some time in our history. So please repeat your message in this dreadful English language. Love , Moller. Antoine <carrea < > 21 February 2000 04:52 Re: Re: Moller/what "Dan" says about silence Antoine <carrea Bonjour M. de la Rouvière, Bienvenu en cet étrange monde où les mots peuvent parfois retrouver l'intégralité, la consistance et la douceur de la chair même. Ils s'éclatent comme autant de feux d'artifices explosant dans un ciel étoilé et nous pénètrent comme le reflet de ce ciel enflammé sur une mer tranquille. Je suis enchanté, Antoine J M de la Rouviere wrote: > As time goes by we all will get to know one another better. I think Harsha is great. You (Dan) have really endeared yourself to me. Thank you for that. > > Love , > > Moller. ------ Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! ZERO! Rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at: http://click./1/914/2/_/_/_/951144720/ ------ // All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 >Moller: >Perhaps it would be worthwhile to distinguish between that which gives the >sense of duality and that which is non-dual. From the perspective of >duality things ARE dual. Dan: From the non-perspective of non-duality, things can't be said to be or not be. Things can't be said to be dual nor nondual. >M: For the 'I' in the i-conscious state, this >sepaparte self-sense is very real. Now if no-one has ever told me that >there is such a possibility of not-I, this state would be real for as long >as it is present. D: Your saying this makes nonduality dependent on someone speaking about it. Thus, you've described nonduality as a form that is communicated. I see it this way: nondual truth leaves no room for a separate entity. The "I" is an image-oriented process based on nothing but its own momentum, emotional clinging, and self-referencing of images. This process can open to what is beyond itself, or can dissolve, without someone pointing out that there is a "beyond". The "beyond" is all there is, in reality. Although it doesn't depend on hearing something from somebody, hearing something from somebody can be extremely useful - I agree with you on that! Another way to say this is: what does it mean "to be told" about it? Does it not speak to us directly of Itself? As a psychologist you must be very aware of how this >separate self-sense creates a vast and intricate network of psychological >complications in your patients/clients. Now if the 'I' was not real, then >these complications could not have been so real as they actually are to >these people (and if I may say, to all of us). So from the perspective of >the 'I', or separate self-sense, duality is big and very real. D: I see the repercussions of the maintained belief-system as real enough, not the reality of the belief-system in and of itself. In fact, any maintained belief system is dualistic in the sense of involving friction between belief and experience. The dissolution of identification with a belief system occurs as the unreality of maintaining such identification is "seen". It's exactly because it's not "really" big and real that it can dissolve. You're right, though, it feels very solid and this feeling is part of its momentum. >However, there seems to be some people for whom this 'I' thing has lost its >reality factor. They may not be without it, but they may recognise each >momentary appearance of the I-sense as just another happening in the vast >ocean of non-dual manifestation. So the 'I', like all other diversity, has >the same fate from this 'perspective'. It has no true separate status. D: True enough. That's "seeing". The "I" factor persists as a tendency of memory and emotion to interpret experience with self-reference. "Seeing" discloses that this "I" arises and departs, moment to moment, with flucuations of the thought-memory-emotion process. These fluctuations disclose "gaps" in thought which are timeless, noncomparative awareness - "useless" in the terms of the "I" process of thought - yet actually "reality" Itself. >So I think from the above we can perhaps legitimately discuss duality and >non-duality. In fact, we have to agree on something before we discuss 'it'. D: Well, perhaps there is no discussion of nonduality ever. Discussion involves an object for discussion. What if that is "my" agreement? Then, there can be poetry, expression, metaphor - but no "real discussion". >We cannot start out by denying ourselves the existing truth (however false >this may be from the wholistic perspective) of duality. If we can please >agree to this, we may be able to have very constructive discussions on the >ways and means of allowing for the movement of wholeness to become our >living reality. This is anyhow of profoundly more interest to those >struggling in the field of duality (Samsara) than for us to keep making >ultimate statements (however true) about the non-dual condition. D: To make nonduality into a process being discussed, a something that is arrived at from somewhere else, distorts It - in "my" opinion. Why agree to make nonduality something it isn't so that a nonexisting being can bolster its false sense of "being grounded in a search", a progressive "getting to" something? > >You also mentioned: > >>Possibly you think I'm being tricky by answering in >>this way. Your way of asking this makes it sound >>like a yes or no question, such as, "have you >>been to the beach?" > >I deliberately asked it in that way. And in a way you have answered it in >such a way - for which I am very thankful. Now I have the sense that, like >me, you are somewhere in between, struggling with this thing with passion >and integrity. D: Except that the struggle and the passion are the false identification. Seeing through the struggle so that it's grounding is emptied is the resolution of the struggle. >Dan: > >Do "I" have "ups and downs" in this "work"? Yes. Sometimes >> it's crystal clear and other times there's awareness >> of "issues continuing to be worked through" as we psychologists >> tend to say. Both aspects of the work I consider important >> (the ever-present silent clarity and the "human" working-through). >> >(Moller) > >Yes Dan, I think this is VERY important. The way I see the process >unfolding, is that the whole thing has to collapse finally into the >wholeness of being. If non-duality is the case, duality cannot be. D: Very true - if nonduality is the case, "duality" is now "seen" *as* nonduality. And >psychology cannot produce its reality projections and complications, and be >experienced as reality ( as is the case with most of us) , in the non-dual >condition. This reality of psychology must be seen as one of the most >fundamental building blocks of the dualistic world-view. And this >psychological reality cannot be by-passed or negated in the drive 'towards' >non-duality. It must be transcended or it will maintain its stranglehold on >the individual. So I see work on this level of being as an integral part of >the relaxation of the knot of the separate 'I'. D: Well-said. The relaxation of the apparent knot of identification is the undoing of the centralized mind-body thought-memory-emotion complex as it continues its ongoing programming. Its programming includes the ability to transcend its programming. This transcendence is not merely a mystically experienced Truth, or a fulfillment of medititation in Reality. It is the relinquishment of the intrusion of "the pastinto" the Present, the dropping of orientation to linear time alone and to subject/object duality. This dropping is very meaningful in terms of day to day relating. If the "psychological" as you term it can be considered the erroneous grounding of reality in body-mind subject-object perceptions, then transcending the psychological is the ending of personal and cultural history as a reference for perception. In terms of day to day life, it isn't the ending of the personal in favor of the impersonal. It is a trancendence of the dichotomy of personal/impersonal. The day to day livingness of mind-body systems is then constantly opened and opening - constantly surrendered to "Presence". Thus - a radical "shift" of the program of day to day "human being"... > >You asked me about myself. > >I have partially approached this in a posting to Harsha. > >Let me please say that I see in myself two processes at work. On the one >hand there is Moller, the conditioned, undeveloped, creature. Then also >present is something blasting its way through everything which seems to come >in the way of the realisation of non-duality. What is bad in me, I can >clearly define as myself. What is good in me, unfortunately for my ego, I >cannot account for. Now, as time has moved on and the things of youth are >beginning to be seen for the extravagant waste of prescious time, this >'other' side is slowly gaining the upper hand. I am seeing signs of >softness, gentleness, honesty and even integrity beginning to become true of >my life. This is very beautiful, because it is for me a sign that this >process is actually working. And although soft, it has not lost its >ruthless attack and insights on that which is false.And this gives me hope >to get up and sign on for each day. D: Beautiful Moller. I resonate very much with this. It's the undoing of the process of day to day being, considered as the life of a separate individual. It's a change in how the body-mind perceptions are used (without reference to an "inner self") and how memory is used (without reference to an existing separate being). >As time goes by we all will get to know one another better. I think Harsha >is great. You have really endeared yourself to me. Thank you for that. D: As you have to me. Perhaps because there is not separation in the unknown being who we are. Love, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 No need to apologize Moller, I was getting to wonder how someone with a french name, could write so beautifully in english as you do. Here it goes for the translation, "Good day Mr. de la Rouviere, Welcome in this strange land where words may sometimes find again the integrity, consistency and softness of flesh itself. They burst open like so many fireworks exploding in a sky full of stars and sink within us like the reflection of this sky in fire on a calm sea. I am enchanted ("pleased to met you", can be in french "enchanted to met you") Antoine > Bonjour M. de la Rouvière, > > Bienvenu en cet étrange monde où les mots peuvent parfois retrouver > l'intégralité, la consistance et la douceur de la chair même. Ils > s'éclatent comme autant de feux d'artifices explosant dans un ciel > étoilé et nous pénètrent comme le reflet de ce ciel enflammé sur une > mer > tranquille. > > Je suis enchanté, > > Antoine J M de la Rouviere wrote: > > J M de la Rouviere <moller > > Dear Antoine, > > Allow me to apologise that despite my French surname, I am not French > speaking. I am South African by birth and my surname comes from the > French > Hugonot's who arrived here some time in our history. > > So please repeat your message in this dreadful English language. > > Love , > > Moller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2000 Report Share Posted February 22, 2000 In a message dated 02/22/2000 3:27:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, mtebyeo writes: << Help, Love the messages but am being inundated with numerous daily dispatches. Is there a digest mode just as the Nonduality salon has ? Can anyone arrange it so I get these emails in just one digest per day ? >> Go to: www., sign onto your account, go to your list settings and change your settings from "individual emails" to "daily digest." Voila, fini! bo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2000 Report Share Posted February 23, 2000 Help, Love the messages but am being inundated with numerous daily dispatches. Is there a digest mode just as the Nonduality salon has ? Can anyone arrange it so I get these emails in just one digest per day ? Thanks, Meng Teck Antoine wrote: > Antoine <carrea > > Bonjour M. de la Rouvière, > > Bienvenu en cet étrange monde où les mots peuvent parfois retrouver > l'intégralité, la consistance et la douceur de la chair même. Ils > s'éclatent comme autant de feux d'artifices explosant dans un ciel > étoilé et nous pénètrent comme le reflet de ce ciel enflammé sur une mer > tranquille. > > Je suis enchanté, > > Antoine > > J M de la Rouviere wrote: > > > As time goes by we all will get to know one another better. I think Harsha is great. You (Dan) have really endeared yourself to me. Thank you for that. > > > > Love , > > > > Moller. > > ------ > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! ZERO! Rates as low as 0.0% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, > no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit > you deserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at: > http://click./1/914/2/_/_/_/951144720/ > ------ > > // > > All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. > > To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at > www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar > on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription > between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2000 Report Share Posted February 23, 2000 Dear Antoine, Thank you for your very kind words and beautiful writing. I am not a great literary person, but could sense the softness and gentleness from where your posting came. It certainly moved me and somehow left me with a wonderful sense of vulnerability. Yes, Antoine, words can indeed convey the wonder of subtle communication. This to my understanding is what Satsangh is all about. Our words will and must touch one another if they are based on the integrity of our own struggle,experience and commitment to the transcendance of that which at times bind us so profoundly to a world of 'self'-imposed limitation and suffering. With you I take hands, and hope we can walk together until our separateness is dissolved in the oneness of our being. In love, Moller. Antoine <carrea < > 21 February 2000 11:12 Re: Re: Moller/what "Dan" says about silence Antoine <carrea No need to apologize Moller, I was getting to wonder how someone with a french name, could write so beautifully in english as you do. Here it goes for the translation, "Good day Mr. de la Rouviere, Welcome in this strange land where words may sometimes find again the integrity, consistency and softness of flesh itself. They burst open like so many fireworks exploding in a sky full of stars and sink within us like the reflection of this sky in fire on a calm sea. I am enchanted ("pleased to met you", can be in french "enchanted to met you") Antoine > Bonjour M. de la Rouvière, > > Bienvenu en cet étrange monde où les mots peuvent parfois retrouver > l'intégralité, la consistance et la douceur de la chair même. Ils > s'éclatent comme autant de feux d'artifices explosant dans un ciel > étoilé et nous pénètrent comme le reflet de ce ciel enflammé sur une > mer > tranquille. > > Je suis enchanté, > > Antoine J M de la Rouviere wrote: > > J M de la Rouviere <moller > > Dear Antoine, > > Allow me to apologise that despite my French surname, I am not French > speaking. I am South African by birth and my surname comes from the > French > Hugonot's who arrived here some time in our history. > > So please repeat your message in this dreadful English language. > > Love , > > Moller. ------ Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points, no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at: http://click./1/912/2/_/_/_/951167551/ ------ // All paths go somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions, and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self. Welcome all to a. To from this list, go to the ONElist web site, at www., and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. This menu will also let you change your subscription between digest and normal mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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