Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Dear Victor, David et al., Thanks to Victor for raising this essential question. I think that "Who am I?" is the only worth-while question for a genuinely spiritual enquiry. And thanks to David to express so clearly and strikingly how to proceed. That is exactly what I myself always "practise". I have a further question to David. Do you feel "free", "liberated" as the fruit of your practice? In my experience, I have always the FEAR monster on my road! :-) And I think all spiritual practices are worthless if not leading to the liberation of suffering, bondage. Best regards, KKT ======================== << David Hodges <dhodges Hi Victor, You asked for actual experiences.... First let me ask this: Did you ever hear a nearby loud, startling noise? If so, did you notice that the noise was registering in awareness BEFORE you actually "noticed" it on a conscious, reactive level? Or if not that, did you ever notice that, say, music was playing in the background of a store you were shopping in and that, on some level you were aware of it even though you weren't paying attention to it? Okay, so my first discovery is that there is a root level of awareness going on ALL THE TIME. And I discovered that this root level of awareness was neutral, it just happened, it wasn't in any way involved in the "I" thought. So I developed the working hypothesis that this Awareness is the true level of Being, which consciousness and thinking observe, ride on, and attempt to direct and control. So my practice was this: I would bring my attention back again and again to this root level of awareness. I would do this while meditating. I would do this while driving. While walking (this was a particularly good time) While falling asleep. While making love. My inquiry was something like "Is this I AM?" I would realize that whatever I was thinking about or feeling was not on the level of this root awareness and so I would refocus, even take a deep breath into it. I did this for most of a year. I got more and more used to aligning my focussed attention with this root level of awareness.Then one day something popped. Suddenly there was not need to do the alignment because there wasn't a separation between "my" attention and this basic awareness. This "pop" was not a result of an intellectual breakthrough or anything. It just happened one day. This is the way I relate it to Ramana's self-inquiry. What I was doing, as I went through that whole process, was aligning my sense of "I AM" away from the separate self and more towards the field-sense of impersonal Awareness. It's easy to do. Just notice that you are noticing. And keep coming back to that noticing. Keep coming back to the awareness that you are always Aware. I think the reason people don't do it via this path is that it seems too simple. But when you actually try it the dynamics it sets up are quite powerful. Best wishes, David >Victor Torrico <vtorrico > >Now I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy. What are the steps to >be used as to how this question is actually applied? I >would actually like to give this method a thourough trial to >see what happens. I understand that one must do their own >work to arrive at an unveiling of the non-dual. One cannot >simply have another pour non-duality into their ear through a >funnel, metaphorically speaking of course. Now I would >really appreciate not simply hearing that "there is nothing >to be done" since I have tried that and have not been able >to unveil non-duality. > >Would those who ACTUALLY have used this method please >describe what they actually did and how it worked for them. >This would indeed be a great kindness and would really >benefit others. All pointers to applying this method are >sincerely appreciated. > >Victor >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Hello, My understanding of the question "Who am I?" is that it is a skillful means taught by Sri Ramana Maharshi which is to be used to unveil one's true non-dual condition. My impression is that the mind which consists of the thought processes is to be removed or done away with. My impression is that it is also possible to use the mind to continue doing those things required by ordinary everyday life. I'm confused. Now I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy. What are the steps to be used as to how this question is actually applied? I would actually like to give this method a thourough trial to see what happens. I understand that one must do their own work to arrive at an unveiling of the non-dual. One cannot simply have another pour non-duality into their ear through a funnel, metaphorically speaking of course. Now I would really appreciate not simply hearing that "there is nothing to be done" since I have tried that and have not been able to unveil non-duality. Would those who ACTUALLY have used this method please describe what they actually did and how it worked for them. This would indeed be a great kindness and would really benefit others. All pointers to applying this method are sincerely appreciated. Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Hi Victor -- David's answer was great so I'll just add an anecdote. A few years ago I was on an airplane with a very bad migraine headache (I mention this because pain is good at making you desparate and unable to think!). I wanted to get "behind" the headache, to be in whatever It is that is aware of the headache. I remembered Self-Enquiry and just tried to go in further and further, saying to myself, who am I. When I ask myself this question, I'm usually answered by a kind of dense, pulsing Silence. This time the Silence sort of burst open and all of a sudden my consciousness -- the answer to the question -- included the whole 747 and everybody in it. This best part of the entire experience is that it was so utterly ordinary. I'd been in the same state countless times: when it just felt good to be alive, when I was peaceful, when I was dancing, at funerals (believe it or not), when I was absorbed by my work. It is so simple, as David says. The only, crucial thing that was new was that I now knew there was no such thing as a "me." Personal identity is a virtual particle. The intervening years have been about assimilating the truth until it feels "normal." This means recognizing how and when the virtual "me" has gotten in the way again and letting it be deconstructed by the dense Silence. We can't enlighten ourselves by will power, but we can make the decision to release the need to be right, the need to know and understand, and the mistaken belief that we don't deserve to awaken. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Hi Victor, You asked for actual experiences.... First let me ask this: Did you ever hear a nearby loud, startling noise? If so, did you notice that the noise was registering in awareness BEFORE you actually "noticed" it on a conscious, reactive level? Or if not that, did you ever notice that, say, music was playing in the background of a store you were shopping in and that, on some level you were aware of it even though you weren't paying attention to it? Okay, so my first discovery is that there is a root level of awareness going on ALL THE TIME. And I discovered that this root level of awareness was neutral, it just happened, it wasn't in any way involved in the "I" thought. So I developed the working hypothesis that this Awareness is the true level of Being, which consciousness and thinking observe, ride on, and attempt to direct and control. So my practice was this: I would bring my attention back again and again to this root level of awareness. I would do this while meditating. I would do this while driving. While walking (this was a particularly good time) While falling asleep. While making love. My inquiry was something like "Is this I AM?" I would realize that whatever I was thinking about or feeling was not on the level of this root awareness and so I would refocus, even take a deep breath into it. I did this for most of a year. I got more and more used to aligning my focussed attention with this root level of awareness.Then one day something popped. Suddenly there was not need to do the alignment because there wasn't a separation between "my" attention and this basic awareness. This "pop" was not a result of an intellectual breakthrough or anything. It just happened one day. This is the way I relate it to Ramana's self-inquiry. What I was doing, as I went through that whole process, was aligning my sense of "I AM" away from the separate self and more towards the field-sense of impersonal Awareness. It's easy to do. Just notice that you are noticing. And keep coming back to that noticing. Keep coming back to the awareness that you are always Aware. I think the reason people don't do it via this path is that it seems too simple. But when you actually try it the dynamics it sets up are quite powerful. Best wishes, David >Victor Torrico <vtorrico > >Now I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy. What are the steps to >be used as to how this question is actually applied? I >would actually like to give this method a thourough trial to >see what happens. I understand that one must do their own >work to arrive at an unveiling of the non-dual. One cannot >simply have another pour non-duality into their ear through a >funnel, metaphorically speaking of course. Now I would >really appreciate not simply hearing that "there is nothing >to be done" since I have tried that and have not been able >to unveil non-duality. > >Would those who ACTUALLY have used this method please >describe what they actually did and how it worked for them. >This would indeed be a great kindness and would really >benefit others. All pointers to applying this method are >sincerely appreciated. > >Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Hi Victor, >snip< >used to unveil one's true non-dual condition. My impression >is that the mind which consists of the thought processes is >to be removed or done away with. My impression is that it >is also possible to use the mind to continue doing those >things required by ordinary everyday life. I'm confused. Statements like "the mind which consists of the thought processes is to be removed or done away with" are made in explaining a method or technique for doing something. Just add the word "temporarily." With any other subject, you wouldn't take a line or two from a "How to" book and try to do that all the time. If I'm teaching someone to swim using the Australian Crawl and I say to turn the head clear to one side and suck in air over the shoulder, I would be very surprised to see the guy breathing like that while he's walking down the street. )) Actually, you know what it's like to be without thinking. Did you ever get so emotional that you weren't thinking at all, just feeling? Or do you recall an emergency, maybe an accident, when you acted instantly without thinking? Just spontaneous action... How about during orgasm... no thinking then, I hope? ) Or when you go to sleep at night... no more thinking... and yet the next day, you can think again! You didn't actually remove your mind or do away with thinking... you were just doing something else! Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 At 09:57 02/03/00 -0500, you wrote: >David Hodges <dhodges > >Hi Victor, > You asked for actual experiences.... Hi David, Victor, What you say has reminded me of a similar experience, many years ago. It was a hot summer's day, I was sitting by a gentle stream, meditating by means of a mantra "who am I?". (Not a usual practice for me, btw, then). I genuinely wanted to know who I was/am, and was not going to be put off by easy or standard answers. This meant that as the mind brought me answers, in its response to my thought, I rejected them and carried on. It broke me through to another state that contained no reflection of "who I was". I just was. Everything became simple, clear and without need to discuss. I could read ppl as if they spoke their being to me as they passed. But it was just part of being myself. Without holding an identity. I was surprized how animals behaved toward me after that, unafraid and coming up to me. It seemed that I had become natural. Love Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2000 Report Share Posted March 2, 2000 Robert Weil wrote: > > It was a hot summer's day, I was sitting by a gentle stream, meditating by > means of a mantra "who am I?". (Not a usual practice for me, btw, then). I > genuinely wanted to know who I was/am, and was not going to be put off by > easy or standard answers. > > This meant that as the mind brought me answers, in its response to my > thought, I rejected them and carried on. It broke me through to another > state that contained no reflection of "who I was". I just was. Everything > became simple, clear and without need to discuss. I could read ppl as if > they spoke their being to me as they passed. But it was just part of being > myself. Without holding an identity. > > I was surprized how animals behaved toward me after that, unafraid and > coming up to me. It seemed that I had become natural. > > Love > > Rob Then we are in agreement here? That this is walking the talk, that this is the Choice of Choicelessness? That Breakdowns happen unless we are powerful enough to hold this; to BE, this Natural State? Maybe we should look to how our neighbors are acting, and how we Enable. And I ask why do we keep talking about this as some Act of the Indivigual? Eric, freeheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 J M de la Rouviere wrote: <snip> > Some questions though. > > When this thing 'popped' what was the actual experience you felt. And also > did this experience last for any length of time? Is it still with you? And > lastly, has it changed your entire relationship to the world of everyday > living? > > Kindly try to give me some feedback on these questions. > > In love, > > Moller Moller, thank you for yourself. I am joining in because i am right in the middle of writing my own experience of that first "pop". I am posting a bigger sharing over at Nonduality Salon, of the experience i had last night, and what came before. If you wish i will send it all to you personally. In Love, freeheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 Received this in another email box, thought some of you might enjoy it :-) It's part of a Ph.D. program i've been invited to enroll in online, like i need something else in my schedule... laughing, and alot of you would be able to say the same sitting in meditation *g* ... <<"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." -Albert Einstein I am now able to get the book manuscript to you as an attachment in word, it may be easier to read that way for you. Please let me know.>> L*L*L ~ bo ~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 My sincere thanks to everyone who responded to my original post. I may not be able to respond to all posts since we are leaving in a few days for a two week trip. Victor David Hodges <dhodges >DH: First let me ask this: Did you ever hear a nearby loud, startling noise? If so, did you notice that the noise was registering in awareness BEFORE you actually "noticed" it on a conscious, reactive level? Or if not that, did you ever notice that, say, music was playing in the background of a store you were shopping in and that, on some level you were aware of it even though you weren't paying attention to it? Okay, so my first discovery is that there is a root level of awareness going on ALL THE TIME. And I discovered that this root level of awareness was neutral, it just happened, it wasn't in any way involved in the "I" thought. So I developed the working hypothesis that this Awareness is the true level of Being, which consciousness and thinking observe, ride on, and attempt to direct and control. <DH: VT: I have noticed that an awareness exists at times when I am very relaxed and am not thinking about anything in particular. However, I never really paid much attention to this awareness. This is sort of like a state of reverie that occurs in that time between sleeping and waking. Lots of creative stuff just seems to pop up then from nowhere in particular. Perhaps awareness of awareness is more active at this time or should I say more noticeable. VT: >DH: So my practice was this: I would bring my attention back again and again to this root level of awareness. I would do this while meditating. I would do this while driving. While walking (this was a particularly good time) While falling asleep. While making love. My inquiry was something like "Is this I AM?" I would realize that whatever I was thinking about or feeling was not on the level of this root awareness and so I would refocus, even take a deep breath into it. I did this for most of a year. I got more and more used to aligning my focussed attention with this root level of awareness.Then one day something popped. Suddenly there was not need to do the alignment because there wasn't a separation between "my" attention and this basic awareness. This "pop" was not a result of an intellectual breakthrough or anything. It just happened one day. <DH: VT: Yes, this seems very profound to me since we do not normally do what you describe. Instead of concerning our self with the world of thought, the so called external world, we now concern ourselves with seeing the world of unique awareness. Whould you please describe what you experience when you are at the root level of awareness and contrast that with what you experience when you are in your so called thinking mind? This is for the purpose of -- how does one recognize and maintain the recognition of the non-dual? VT: >DH: This is the way I relate it to Ramana's self-inquiry. What I was doing, as I went through that whole process, was aligning my sense of "I AM" away from the separate self and more towards the field-sense of impersonal Awareness. It's easy to do. Just notice that you are noticing. And keep coming back to that noticing. Keep coming back to the awareness that you are always Aware. I think the reason people don't do it via this path is that it seems too simple. But when you actually try it the dynamics it sets up are quite powerful. <DH: VT: So one point that you infer is that it is important to do this as often as possible throughout the day. I guess this helps overcome habitual patterning. Thanks David for your interest and most useful information. Victor >Victor Torrico <vtorrico > >Now I'm a nuts and bolts kinda guy. What are the steps to >be used as to how this question is actually applied? I >would actually like to give this method a thourough trial to >see what happens. I understand that one must do their own >work to arrive at an unveiling of the non-dual. One cannot >simply have another pour non-duality into their ear through a >funnel, metaphorically speaking of course. Now I would >really appreciate not simply hearing that "there is nothing >to be done" since I have tried that and have not been able >to unveil non-duality. > >Would those who ACTUALLY have used this method please >describe what they actually did and how it worked for them. >This would indeed be a great kindness and would really >benefit others. All pointers to applying this method are >sincerely appreciated. > >Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2000 Report Share Posted March 3, 2000 Hbarrett47 >HB: David's answer was great so I'll just add an anecdote. A few years ago I was on an airplane with a very bad migraine headache (I mention this because pain is good at making you desparate and unable to think!). I wanted to get "behind" the headache, to be in whatever It is that is aware of the headache. I remembered Self-Enquiry and just tried to go in further and further, saying to myself, who am I. When I ask myself this question, I'm usually answered by a kind of dense, pulsing Silence. This time the Silence sort of burst open and all of a sudden my consciousness -- the answer to the question -- included the whole 747 and everybody in it. This best part of the entire experience is that it was so utterly ordinary. I'd been in the same state countless times: when it just felt good to be alive, when I was peaceful, when I was dancing, at funerals (believe it or not), when I was absorbed by my work. It is so simple, as David says. The only, crucial thing that was new was that I now knew there was no such thing as a "me." Personal identity is a virtual particle. The intervening years have been about assimilating the truth until it feels "normal." This means recognizing how and when the virtual "me" has gotten in the way again and letting it be deconstructed by the dense Silence. <HB: VT: I have had the awareness without thought but never have experienced the inclusion of the totality experience -- sometimes the I just disappears and then whatever is there is just there without a separation. I don't know if this is what you mean. VT: >HB: We can't enlighten ourselves by will power, but we can make the decision to release the need to be right, the need to know and understand, and the mistaken belief that we don't deserve to awaken. VT: I wonder why it is so difficult to release the need to know and understand, and the mistaken belief that we don't deserve to awaken? Thanks for taking the time to be helpful. Victor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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