Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 In a message dated 03/10/2000 8:30:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, gill writes: > Well, I guess after Rob Weil's welcome I'll hang around a while > longer Great! I am very happy to see you here with us. > While I'm here I'd like to tie two threads together (sorry for the pun) - > Tony's emphasis on detachment (A Whiff of Scent) and the > discussion on mental illness and meds that Mike started. > > I tend to suffer from mild depression, and have had very severe > depression in the past. One of the main symptoms is anhedonia, > an inability to enjoy anything. Actually, in my case at least, it's > more of a feeling that nothing will be enjoyable; I do actually enjoy > things while they're happening but I can't 'look forward' to anything, So what? Who wants to look forward to anything? That is living in the future. As you begin to see this differently... that it's okay... watch the beauty of the moment unfold. > so I end up not making plans to do anything that might be fun. Well duh... making plans is future oriented too. How wonderful this actually is true for you! You are on the right path, yet you see it as detrimental, rather than such a blessing! You are on the path of spontanaeity and living in the moment! Hooray! >This seems to be pretty much the same as the 'lack of desire' promoted > by Tony. To me, this is something I have to fight, or lack of desire > could turn into lack of desire to live... You think it is something you have to fight, or you become depressed? Yes, I can understand that we feel we have to fight... we have to use our willpower, our strengths instead of weaknesses... in order to avoid depression among other things. And although that is a path of discipline, it is not the only way -- it is based on 'fighting' the ego... fighting the enemy (the enemy being what we do not want). It takes great strength for this path of temptation. I personally cannot do this since I am weak (!) and have chosen to 'love my enemies' instead. For me, it is easier to love than hate, make peace instead of war. What is it we are loving and making peace with though? The ego? The depressions, the addictions, the conditions of the ego? NO! There is NO way we can ever accept those things as true and real in order to overcome them. Because they are not truth, and they are not real! ..... "Let me overcome that which is not real?" "Let me fight instead of love!" Now how stupid is that? (It is a path though, albeit a long one) "Let me love instead... Let me give peace instead." What is it we give love and peace to? We can't love the ego and its' conditions because in Truth, they don't exist. It'd be like giving love to nothing because the ego is nothing. > Is there a way for me to practice detachment which isn't going to > make my life unlivable? I don't know! Let's think of detachment differently... detach only from that which is not real, which is the ego and all its' fun labels, fears, guilt, and doubts. >Or do I need to find a different path? There is only one. All paths lead to God so it doesn't matter which one you take, there you are! You are on the right path. Use your anhedonia, for instance, and see it... walk with it... differently. It is a lovely approach to your own true nature. It is your most holiest place that can only lead you to oneness with Self. And that is giving yourself the moment, which is where eternity is found. It is making lemons into lemonade, a whacked-up no trees back yard into a Zen garden, metal into gold. The anhedonia is the symptom -- the effect of the cause. As we search the true source/cause, which we originally thought was the ego's depression, we find that the ego only made the thought that it was something other than what it is. Well, that's my take on it for what it's worth. You are someone I hold dear to my own heart. Thank you for being you! Much Love, xxxtg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 hi y'all, Well, I guess after Rob Weil's welcome I'll hang around a while longer While I'm here I'd like to tie two threads together (sorry for the pun) - Tony's emphasis on detachment (A Whiff of Scent) and the discussion on mental illness and meds that Mike started. I tend to suffer from mild depression, and have had very severe depression in the past. One of the main symptoms is anhedonia, an inability to enjoy anything. Actually, in my case at least, it's more of a feeling that nothing will be enjoyable; I do actually enjoy things while they're happening but I can't 'look forward' to anything, so I end up not making plans to do anything that might be fun. This seems to be pretty much the same as the 'lack of desire' promoted by Tony. To me, this is something I have to fight, or lack of desire could turn into lack of desire to live... Is there a way for me to practice detachment which isn't going to make my life unlivable? Or do I need to find a different path? gill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Gill Collingwood [gill] Friday, March 10, 2000 8:24 AM Detachment and depression "Gill Collingwood" <gill hi y'all, Well, I guess after Rob Weil's welcome I'll hang around a while longer While I'm here I'd like to tie two threads together (sorry for the pun) - Tony's emphasis on detachment (A Whiff of Scent) and the discussion on mental illness and meds that Mike started. I tend to suffer from mild depression, and have had very severe depression in the past. One of the main symptoms is anhedonia, an inability to enjoy anything. Actually, in my case at least, it's more of a feeling that nothing will be enjoyable; I do actually enjoy things while they're happening but I can't 'look forward' to anything, so I end up not making plans to do anything that might be fun. This seems to be pretty much the same as the 'lack of desire' promoted by Tony. To me, this is something I have to fight, or lack of desire could turn into lack of desire to live... Is there a way for me to practice detachment which isn't going to make my life unlivable? Or do I need to find a different path? gill ------ Thanks Gill for joining and being here again. You ask difficult and fascinating questions. Maybe our distinguished psychologist or psychiatrist friends can offer insights. I imagine you have probably consulted professionals in the field and had face to face interactions with them and that you have support from friends, family, and a spiritual community. I wish you well Gill. It seems to me that many people who experience various types of so called "mental illnesses" become more interested in the nature of consciousness because of it and are hence attracted to spirituality and perhaps are more authentic and genuine seekers because of it. I know many examples of this first hand. This is a very personal subject but any insights would be appreciated. I am going to incorporate a full section on mental illness when I revise the Kundalini paper. This will all be from a yogic perspective. Dr. Lee Sannella wrote on Kundalini and psychosis in his book in the 1970s. Dharma knows about that book and maybe can give us a reference. Love to all Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 In a message dated 3/10/00 1:46:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, gill writes: << but my faith has never been very strong. I honestly do worry that practicing a form of spirituality that emphasises detachment is bad for my mental health - it's the one thing I can't afford to lose! >> Hi Gill, l'm getting in late and missed alot of the early dialogue, but l wanted to also welcome you (back) to the list. Having ventured down several different spiritual paths myself, l just wanted to say that (as you probably are aware) you don't need to practice a form of spirituality that emphasizes detachment. You can grow spiritually without ever thinking about this. l experience detachment as something which may or may not come with experience -- l personally don't see it as something that needs to be thought about or practiced in any way. Especially if the idea itself upsets or depresses you. There can certainly be a relationship between faith (or lack thereof) and mental health. l know it's true for me, and l do things to support my faith. What works best for me is praying and opening my heart in compassion for others. l came to this practice reluctantly, only because after k it was the only thing that l could still do! But l think it works pretty well. l never think about being detached and don't miss thinking about it. l hope you'll do what feels right for YOU. love, jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 At 13:24 10/03/00 -0000, you wrote: >"Gill Collingwood" <gill > >hi y'all, > >Well, I guess after Rob Weil's welcome I'll hang around a while >longer > >I tend to suffer from mild depression, and have had very severe >depression in the past. One of the main symptoms is anhedonia, >an inability to enjoy anything. Actually, in my case at least, it's >more of a feeling that nothing will be enjoyable; I do actually enjoy >things while they're happening but I can't 'look forward' to anything, >so I end up not making plans to do anything that might be fun. This >seems to be pretty much the same as the 'lack of desire' promoted >by Tony. To me, this is something I have to fight, or lack of desire >could turn into lack of desire to live... > >Is there a way for me to practice detachment which isn't going to >make my life unlivable? Or do I need to find a different path? I admit some involvement here. I know Gill fairly well, have a Psychology Degree, and have had episodes of depression in my life. What follows is my subjective view, based on experience and some study. Lack of desire to live is not, ime, the same as detachment. The feeling of lack of pleasure in life is not the same as liberation from being involved in the emotions, and the thoughts that generate them. Imagine being in pleasure: detachment from that is possible, while still being in it, tho' it seems that as a race we have more problems handling ectasy than pain, from a detached perspective. Depression removes the availability of that pleasure, leaving one with the teacher called pain. And that is a realism that our attachment to pleasure would have us avoid. To be incarnate, to have desires, to have fear, to be part of the wave of change and uncertainty, is this not a reason for wondering what the point is, especially when one can see the outcome of so many of our actions, splatted across the world, leaving the cries of the tortured and deprived behind? To care what happens, to be mindful of outcome, to fear the way things often turn out, is imo a natural human condition. It is easy to look down rfom the detached viewpoint and claim that "all" one has to do is detach one's identification with one's desires. In Elizabethan times, when the four humours were regarded as the science of the time, the Divine Melancholia was regarded as a prelude to illumination. Being in pain of the world was the precursor to breaking through to a higher understanding of the nature of reality. It ushered in a realignment to identification with an awareness beyond the pain. Whatever processes bring depression to a person, and they could be highly individual, one factor I keep finding is a sense of disempowerment. The person feels they cannot/should not/must not/does not deserve to achieve a heart's desire. Locked into a worldview that takes their right to be exactly, naturally, who they are, is painful. They know this. They don't know the solution. If they do, it still seems beyond grasp. This is different from the standard frustration of a desire: one feels as if there is no chance to have *any* desires met. Which is a pain to experience! To deny desire could be seen in the outcome of depression: what joy can there be in a life where joy is denied? This is so different to the voluntary, gradual, letting go of attachment to joys and pleasures. "Let me *have* them first, then I'll let'em go!" I had so many ppl help me in so many small and large ways. Sometimes I didn't see it: no matter, it was worth it anyway. During this time, my spiritual experiences still continued, as if there was a higher me that was in contact with a truth that, if I could just reach it, would unlock me from the prison of fear and futility. I knew where I wanted to go, as a truth undeniable. But how? Everything seems like an assault course to someone who feels the need to be be other than what they feel they are. Encouragement through "shoulds" feels like prescriptions, the labours of Hercules, a wagging finger, trying to get back to Eden, whatever. Cults work on this too. What would you do to regain Eden? Oh man, *anything*. But if one feels depressed, that seems unobtainable. That is why I am still a little sensitive to others' "inestimable certainties", as I call them. I see the liberation from this particular prison as a total permission to BE. A depressed person does not need a "pull yourself together" attitude, nor are they removed from spiritual discovery and awareness. It is the manifestation of this into tangible feedback that can be so hard. At a high level, nothing "really" matters. High indifference, as John C Lilly used to call it. But compassion is a magic tool, even if in the end it is another illusion. What a beautiful illusion! I find this hard to write: I don't claim to know the answers to everyone's depression. I can only say what I have seen. I *know* who has helped me: my heart opened and I felt the love. That is an undeniable experience. Love Rob ps. am offline till Monday. happy to discuss then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2000 Report Share Posted March 10, 2000 Hi Harsha, > Thanks Gill for joining and being here again. You ask difficult and > fascinating questions. Well, I'm glad someone finds them interesting! > Maybe our distinguished psychologist or > psychiatrist friends can offer insights. I hope so too; this is a problem that's been bothering me for a while now! I know that, in general, faith is supposed to help recovery from mental health problems, but my faith has never been very strong. I honestly do worry that practicing a form of spirituality that emphasises detachment is bad for my mental health - it's the one thing I can't afford to lose! I imagine you have probably > consulted professionals in the field and had face to face interactions > with them and that you have support from friends, family, and a spiritual > community. Well, I have some very good friends. > I wish you well Gill. Thank you. > It seems to me that many people who experience various types of so called > "mental illnesses" become more interested in the nature of consciousness > because of it and are hence attracted to spirituality and perhaps are more > authentic and genuine seekers because of it. I know many examples of this > first hand. This is a very personal subject but any insights would be > appreciated. I am going to incorporate a full section on mental illness > when I revise the Kundalini paper. This will all be from a yogic > perspective. Yes, I'm sure there's a link between my mental health problems and my spirituality - there's a kind of kink in my psyche that I've been aware of since I was very young. I remember realising at the age of about seven that I was supposed to be like the other kids, that I was one of them! It seemed a very strange idea... I think that it's this kink that causes both the interest in spiritual matters and the depression, rather than the depression being the root cause, though I'm sure this isn't always the case. love, gill Dr. Lee Sannella wrote on Kundalini and psychosis in his book > in the 1970s. Dharma knows about that book and maybe can give us a > reference. > > Love to all > Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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