Moksha & Desire

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

 

You addressed the intrigueing question whether it's possible to achieve

Moksha and still retain desires.

 

<Where do people on these list feel

<desires come into the equation?

 

<Is it possible to get Moksha with desires?

 

<Or do they feel one may just continue with desires as

<long as one's mind sees non-duality?

 

<How are samskaras effected by non-duality success?

 

<So I suppose my question is; 'Is moksha possible with

<all these tendencies intact, no matter how non-dual

<one is?>

 

 

As far as I understand desire and its function in the big scheme of things,

it's a natural and necessary driving factor in the evolutionary journey we're

all experiencing.

 

Desire first turns energy and attention outwards towards objects of desire

and when the original desire is fulfilled a new one usually is right there to

take its place. It seems to me that it's part of Nature's great plan to let

this circus go on until most desires are lived through and fulfilled. The

direction of the desires is then turned around and energy and attention start

to go back inward. We then wind up somewhere in the here and now, with

spiritual aspirations taking us closer to Source, but usually with a bunch of

other worldly desires left as well.

 

At this stage, it seems to me to be useful to be conscious and really see and

feel the desire and know it for what it is. It can then be fulfilled and I've

found that a sense of disillusion usually accompanies the conscious and

deliberate sensing and fulfilling the desire - seeing through this illusion

really is another step towards freedom. I've found this to apply to a lot of

things like money, objects, relationships, career (also the desire to just go

on living here with a body ...).

 

Even if some desires are still there in these areas, the sense of desperate

struggle for fulfillment seems to recede and it becomes more like a silly

game that one can choose to participate in or not. This also seems to make

the imprint (or "samskara") in the subconscious, which usually leads to a

desire for repeating or acting upon the original desire, less powerful.

 

Interestingly, when our life- energy is freed from having to run out and

fulfill desires - the same applies to fears which we try to avoid becoming

reality, but the mechanism is absolutely the same - consciousness begins to

realise its freedom and begins to see that desires actually tie it down.

 

In terms of kundalini-yoga, the inner energy which was limiting itself by

identifying with the denser areas of consciousness and the desires that live

in there, moves out of the lower centers and begins to operate through the

higher chakras. This also seems to activate other neurophysiological pathways

within the brain and the desire/repulsion circuits become less predominant.

 

At some point there then seems to be the acknowledgement of the fact that

consciousness was always free and unlimited by desire in the first place, and

that it was only the identification with thought,desire, objects, body that

prevented the seeing of this.

 

So, from this point of view, liberation isn't really something that one gets

or achieves by choosing not to desire - this in itself is a desire actually -

but rather is suddenly perceived as something which always was the true and

innermost nature of the "desirer" anyway.

 

The next realisation is, that this inner, silent and free consciousness is

that field of awareness, in which not only the previously experienced

desires, thoughts, objects etc. took place but that it's actually also the

very innermost nature of everything and everybody else as well. It then

becomes an experience of self-identity with the universe or of non-duality.

In this state all objects (including one's body, thoughts, desires) are seen

to emanate out of the One Self, so here desire in the usual sense of the word

doesn't seem to have any relevance any longer - desire would imply a lack of

something which is seen to be outside of the Self.

 

My guess is that if one goes deeply into this state and there are no desires

or karmic patterns left to hold on to, then death of the physical body would

happen - and this seems to be taught in the yogic traditions as well, I think

the teachings mention something like 21 days being the maximum a yogi can

stay in Nirvikalpa Samadhi (= total union with the Source without movement of

mind).

 

But all this also means that if our natural state is free and unlimited

consciousness, it was that way also during all that time we were running

around fulfilling desires, (even if this fact was never realised...), so in

this respect one can't really say that liberation or freedom of consciousness

is impossible with there being desire - how can something which is always

there and present and the true nature of the experiencer be impossible ?

 

Maybe it's important not to put limiting and qualifying conditions on

liberation or higher states and spiritual experiences in general. (I once

read a serious treatise on yoga, in which the author claimed with confidence

that "liberation and samadhi were only possible for Hindus" - advanced

bullshit, that...). If the whole universe and the totality of life is just

God's will manifested, then why should anything be impossible ?

 

On the other hand, obviously, I'm not at all sure whether such experiences of

unity and the insights that come out of them are indeed related to that

which is called "Moksha" in the first place !

 

<Or is it that as long as one rises above the world one

<can do all these things with impunity?

 

I've got the feeling that in the end, we don't even rise above the world, but

rather again consciously become that out of which the world arises - and then

maybe "all these things" simply aren't relevant.

 

So, do actions keep on having repercussions in the strictly causal sense in

this state then ?

 

I don't know, maybe we all just need to find this out for ourselves ? )

 

Best regards

 

Michael