realization versus NonDuality

[Guest guest]

> "mumble cat" <mumblecat

> Roger Isaacs wrote:

> >NonDuality has absolutely nothing to do with realization !!!!!!!!

 

I'd like to ammend this "nonDuality has nothing to do with realization".

 

There are TWO nondualities (is everyone laughing?).

 

"Dualistic" can refer to the opposites: pain/pleasure, hot/cold, good/bad

etc. In ordinary waking state a person is identified through thought &

emotion with duality. Realization (according to Osho & MMY) is the discovery

that one is separate from the duality: "I am that" eternal consciousness.

 

However, this initial realization leaves a subtler duality: the duality of

the observer as eternal consciousness & the rest of the observed creation as

separate from the observer. A higher later (perhaps following years later

according to what I read) realization is "all this is that" eternal

consciousness. Here there is "no inside or outside" [Osho] because all that

is seen throughout the whole universe is perceived as oneself. [MMY]

> You are right,

> the words "nonduality" and "realization"

> are two separate words and have do not mean

> the same. The concepts these words point to

> do not also have a direct connection.

 

Shall we note the progression from word to concept to that which the concept

points to? Concepts are are also removed from direct experience.

> >People on this email list (NDS) fall into 2 groups: the realized and the

> >non-realized. One might think that NonDuality is the "way", but this is

> >absolutely not the case.

>

> And who is this "one" who "thinks" so ?

 

It is "I". The one "I" in the universe. The same "I" behind the eyes

reading

these words. [barry Long] Amanda, Your comment is inconsistent: you attack

"thinking" yet your response is a thought.

> Who are these "ppl" you're talking about that "fall" into 2 categories

anyway?

 

You do not have the skills to assemble a list of the participants email

addresses?

 

"fall": You apparently believe that the elimination of verbs along with the

words "I,me,mine" etc from speach constitutes realization or constitutes a

path? You're still in "grammar" school?

> >Realization is a particular stage, Osho describes it as level 4,

Maharishi

> >M. Yogi as level 5, Barry Long as level 4... Steiner, Gurdjieff,

Aurobindo:

> >all have similiar descriptions.

> >

> >Nonduality is a more advanced stage, Osho suggests it becomes a

possibility

> >at level 5, MMY at level 6-7, BL describes levels 5-7. (quotes available

on

> >request but I don't have the books handy now)

>

> Oooh, that's a lot of levels.

 

There are three levels most are aware of: 1) sleeping, 2) dreaming, 3)

waking. Your denial of the existance of any levels suggests you aren't aware

of the 4th state and may metaphorically reside in 1 or 2.

> >So, if one is unrealized, it's just a pointing.

>

> Who's unrealized again ?

 

Dust off your bathroom mirror and take a good look.

> >The work to be done is to be still.

>

> And who does the work ?

 

While there is the apprearance of a "doer", one who claims volition, then

subtle "work" (as in the various yogas & tantra) is the way.

 

If one is unrealized and denies the efficacy of subtle "work", this known as

arrogant delusion.

> >Drop intellectualization, drop thoughts,

> >all thoughts, especially those about NonDuality

>

> including those droppings as well ?

> ) LOLOLOLOL !

 

Thanks: a worthwhile meditation: are words just more "droppings" (animal

excrement) or do they point to transformation?

 

Dropping is necessary till stillness prevails.

> Just pulling everyone's legs here.

>

>

> Best regards,

>

> Amanda.

 

"Advaita disorder" (ie disrupting conversation with 'who is this I?' rather

than actually performing self inquiry) is typically a fatal disease: the

thinker dies with the body.

 

Roger

www.newu.org