Fwd: More on Mania and Schizophrenia

[Guest guest]

---

Only the gate

of the abbey is left,

on the winter moor.

 

-Shiki

 

One more.... I apologize to those who

receive this in duplicate and find it

an inconvenience.

 

A.

 

--------- Forwarded Message ---------

>Message: 3

> Ville Vainio <vvainio

>Mania and schizophrenia

 

Hi Ville et al.,

 

Some more views on the topic of mania and

schozophrenia.

 

Ville, I'm not trying to argue with you or

make you change your mind or anything.

I'm just want to

add some colors to the captivating palette of

thoughts you have here.

 

You said:

>I don't think there is logic involved at all. It's just a bunch of shrinks

>trying to make good guesses, usually failing miserably.

 

Most medicine is like that, trying to

make good guesses.

So is science, but scientist working directly

with experiments usually have a little bit more

control over their train of thoughts and

can construct tests and perform them.

It still remains only

models of reality though, as can only

give a simplified version of it.

As you probably know being in the natural

sciences.

With real life humans and psychiatry, the

questions become a bit different.

>Yours truly was once diagnosed to have schizoid

>personality disorder due to my philosophical/spiritual interests.

 

Yes, a rather poor platform on which to base

this diagnosis.

I can see this must have been one of those

stigmatizing labels Lisaveta mentioned in her

post to the list.

>I had had problems with k previously, mostly >anxiety,

 

That is a common enough problem with K or

pre K times. I see it as an excess of energy

in the emotional body as well as a balance

trying to be recaptured but somewhat failing.

>and diagnosed me as a schizoid personality. Despite the fact that I have

>always been deeply emotional, love my wife & family, and have friends.

>Servers to prove how far psychiatry is from actual science.

 

Most definitely. This to me is what makes

psychiatry so dangerous, it is always someone's

more or less well educated opinion, but

it is not the same as a blood test.

 

It is however different with mental illness

which also carries with it neurological change

and disease, which can be be easier tested for.

 

However, I would not have liked to have the

difficult profession of psychiatrist,

although at one point in my life I did consider it.

 

I can sense the pain this "diagnosis" must have

caused. Acquiring a "psychiatric" diagnosis

has in many ways the effects of other ppl

not wanting or not being able to take your

views and wishes seriously. It is a rather

depowering type of label.

 

It shows how much psychiatric illness is feared

even today.

One must wonder whether this is not a dark

Jungian shadow of the fear of not being able

to cope, of not being able to do what modern

society expects us to do, i.e. perform.

>some correlation to the possibility that something nasty will pop up

>behind an otherwise ignored, innocent looking neuron. Somebody that

>exclusively does the sleep-eat-work

>routine won't quite probably activate much of the hidden pathways, and

>will probably have a saner life.

 

Yes, until the ball drops, until you get

into hot waters, and as I see it, that happens

for everyone at least once in their life.

Apart from such a crisis being a great opportunity for spritual progress and

even

enlightenment, situations like these are in

many ways the measure stick for how sane you really are, not on the surface when

everything

is spick and clean, but

how well or not you can cope in a situation

that rips you out of your familiar old

places and sets you in unfamiliar terrain.

 

(We may be back to the old maxim of surrender

here. Only in situations of extreme emotional

/ physical pressure will the ego allow itself

to surrender, most likely as a result of

simply not being able to go on any more.)

 

In addition, as I see it,

one does well in exploring those harmless

looking neurons before they are being

ground in your face.

 

However,

prior to my K awakening, I used to read reports

of doctors warning against TM and other types

of meditation with great horror and vowed

never to be involved in anything so dangerous.

Now I can only say... some things have to be

faced sooner or later.

>Me too. One of them is that spiritual person can quite easily fake the

>behaviour of a normal person, and go along the same thought routes as the

>normals do.

 

Heh heh heh, exactly. LOL !

That's about the only differentiation I too can

make b/n someone successful on the spiritual

path and the person diagnosed with ps. disease.

LOL !

The spiritual person can hide away the mystical

views and pretend to be an everyday person,

s/he does not have to shout that s/he has seen

god that morning and can go to work like

nothing happened. The insane person is not

able to stay silent about his experiences.

 

Well that is simple.

 

However, I do think there is a question about

balance here.

As you say, the spiritual person swims, the

one labeled insane sinks.

The spiritual person receives the mystical

states while in balance, being able to cope

with the upsetting or shocking experiences

without being overwhelmed by them,

the person being labeled insane does not,

maybe because there is a general imbalance

in the mind body.

>showed increased density of dopanergic synapses , but this could

>have as well been the result of dopaminergic up-regulation by the neuroleptic

drugs.

 

You're absolutely right about that.

However, I do remember having seen extensive

reports on genetic differences in schizo-

phrenic patients compared to unaffected

control group, and this would support

the theory that serious mental disease such

as schizophrenia has inheritable as well

as environmental factors.

>I sincerely hope so :-).

 

Well, maybe the spiritual process will

leave you with no desire to communicate with

the surrounding world, but I do believe the

choice will still be there. Or that it is need

based. As long as the desire to speak is there,

the ability will stay. Or something like that.

>We'll see if that will happen... it would be kinda cool if such things

>indeed happened, professionally thinking.

 

It doesn't for everybody and this list is full

of examples where the process hasn't led to

the ability to take more strain or decreased

depression and anxiety, but on the other hand

seemingly added to the burden.

 

However, if the process is a balanced one,

I do strongly believe the ability to take

strain is increased with time.

 

Some sources on the net claim that Kundalini

can be turned outwards into external activities

and used to enhance success in professional

life. Personally I can't exactly see how this

can come about, partly because K can make

it difficult to read / study

at times, and is prone to

make one more easily tired, physically, as well

as mucks up the short term memory, but yes,

my personal experience is that K can reduce

stress in general and at work.

Things are more easily done, there is less

resistance to tasks previously disliked,

the boss' temper tantrums are more easily handled and forgotten,

some things are done without conscious volition

sometimes.

>I'm in the age (23) when I'm

>supposed to start developing a career of some sort, and I know my family

>won't rest until I'm a stinking rich Ph.D. Up to know, k has given only

spiritual benefits.

 

Well, if to become a stinking rich PhD is what

you most deeply want, if you are in the place

you should be, not according to your family but

according to your soul,

chances are great that you will become a

stinking rich PhD (apart from you being able to

actually

become rich through the study you have chosen

as opposed to many other academic professions).

However, if this is not the place you most

deeply want to be, a better and more

appropriately feeling alternative may well

present itself.

 

When I first joined the list one year ago,

I read these stories about how K had caused

many ppl to lose their jobs.

I thought I was in for the same, but so far,

I have only become more deeply involved.

I would like a different career, but for the

moment, I seem to be rather stuck.

Too bad that entails 10 hour long work days. (

We all have our own dharma to uphold.

>"Balance"... hmm.. I think I had that feeling around the early 1997 ;-).

 

LOL !

 

More like a thermostat then, up then down,

up then down, somewhere in this balancing act

the perfect balance will be struck and then

balance will never again be a problem.

>though I assume that a good therapist

>can turn a schizoid into schizophrenic in a few well-planned sessions.

 

LOL ! I am pretty sure about that to.

In order to undergo psychiatric care, one should be extremely sane.

>Yep, and the psychiatry forgets that it is also a religion (or at least as

>absurd as many religions).

 

Yes, it casts itself as the mold for the

true explanation for the human condition.

I do have respect for psychiatry and psychology,

but I no longer believe it holds the true

explanations.

>And ultimately, we'll all end up dead anyway, and see the same, smiling

>absence of darkness.

 

LOL ! Yes, thank you.

 

I did ask my sister, who has been under education to work in the health sector

about what would happen if mental disease would

just be left untreated (I was curious to see

whether the patient would end up in a vegetative state) sort of run itself out.

This was an alternative taht had obviosuly

never struck my sister's or her teachers'

minds. It was an unthinkable option.

Every patient had to at least be tried to

get back into normal functioning.

This is understandable seing that the medical

profession has a mission to secure the health

of ppl, but it is also a political issue.

Should society pay for care for psychiatric

patients that

are unable to function by themselves

without first at least trying to treat them

and bring them back to normal functioning ?

 

Prior to the chemical revolution of psychiatry,

I do believe a lot of patients were cared this

way, by kind co-villagers or family members,

there was simply nothing more to do for them

than give them the basic care and see to it

that they did not harm themselves or others in

their illness.

However,

I am not sure this is the right solution.

 

Thank you again for the discussion.

 

Best regards,

 

Amanda.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Ville Vainio <vvainio writes:

>"Balance"... hmm.. I think I had that feeling around the early 1997 ;-).

 

LOL! About the only time when I recognize balance in my own life is

when I swing past it! ;-)

 

Namaste, and take care-

 

Mike