Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 Hi Tony & everybody ! The question that comes up is, when can we begin to speak of personal realisation, are we actually entitled to talk about ourselves in the same terms as recognized realised beings like Ramana, the Buddha, Nanak, Ramakrishna etc. ? The view you, Tony seem to advocate is that there's something inherently blasphemous or at least hypocritical in using vocabulary that's normally associated with illustrious and luminous beings like the ones above, when describing one's own spiritual affairs. Another approach is to believe and rejoice in one's own experience, even if this is at first only based on intellectual deduction - which is actually Jnana-yoga. And as such is a very valid but difficult path, because it's main focus is in the intellect which also houses the ego. I think it requires enormous powers of discrimination to avoid the numerous traps that go with a path that doesn't really take into account purification of subconscious patterns and energy or the disciplining of the mind/body. Nevertheless, why shouldn't insights and realisations gained be valid, - even if it's easy to delude oneself, I'd still say that it's possible to talk of realisation although there might be a certain half-bakedness to it - it's not the complete works, that's all. Then there's the totally unorthodox pattern of experience that seems to happen more and more often, in which people have profound spiritual experiences and insights without any sadhana or effort or work on the character at all - take the many accounts of spiritually overwhelming near-death-experiences as an example. (It's probably the Age of Aquarius - I'm not joking ! ) Anyway, my own experience initially was of this maverick type, I mean I was eighteen or something and went into total kundalini-induced samadhi and union after smoking pot with some other longhaired guitar-playing friends... No sadhana, a pretty immature outlook on life and a whole bunch of defects of character and no real spiritual ideals whatsoever. The question is, how do you see yourself after such an experience ? At the time, I had no idea about what had happened to me, so I just filed it away as something cool and very weird that happened to me. It was only much later, after being confronted with all the massive problems kundalini-awakenings like this can bring, and after having done some sadhana just to save my skin, that I began to reflect on this whole business and tried to somehow find the adequate definition for my state of being. Was I a yogi ? In a certain sense, yes, definitely, I practiced several forms of yoga, the shakti was well awake and I'd had the ultimate experience of going beyond myself into infinity. On the other hand I felt terrible most of the time, acted strange and seemed more like a basket-case on so many occasions - so what was the bottom line ? When I went to India and met sadhus and yogis, many of whom had followings and seemed like the very essence of realised beings, I could sense that they hadn't had the experience of cosmic union and shakti was just a concept and not something that kept them on their toes for 25 hours a day. Still many radiated strength and knowledge and seemed to be in tune with the universe in a way that I unfortunately couldn't claim at all. Another aspect of the kundalini-process is that, as time goes by and the energy keeps on hammering away, the former personality begins to recede. The shakti seems to take over and the witnessing state becomes more firmly established. This is followed by many automatic spiritual insights and in my case there have also been numerous profound experiences of realisation, truth, bliss etc. The problem is that it's not really the "I" or the personality that experiences this, or indeed has earned this by doing sadhana or can claim any type of responsibility for it or brag about it. In reality it seems as if it's the immutable and sometimes truly merciless will of this energy to achieve these higher states - and it does so by slowly killing and annihilating the normal "I"! So, who's realised ? It's like a case of split personality, in which a previously dormant, but in it's essence radiantly pure and forceful aspect of the self, squeezes out the old personality or ego-structure, which unfortunately puts up a huge struggle for survival. Now, if this ego-structure claims to be realised, there's an immediate contradiction, since in essence, it's this very ego-structure, that opposes the evolution into the greater Self. On the other hand, the action of the shakti being in itself pure, consciousness experiences itself as free and enlightened and "realised" and can rightly claim to be so (since it's the truth). But here again there's still the contradiction of having to live with unresolved karmas and the limitations and inadequacies of the squirming ego. Not to mention being restricted by afflictions of the physical body and all the other problems one might have just by living on this green little planet. What I'm saying is, that in spite of very real realisations, which seem to hav e more to do with God's will (or maybe rather that of the Goddess) and very little with the person and the ego, there can still be contradiction and plain old stupidity and total egoism and extreme depression - and perhaps even more so than in a normal and balanced person. Even after experiences of absolute surrender, seeing & feeling everything as God , melting into the surroundings and being immortal and having a spiritually jolly good time in general... Maybe that makes it unrealised again... Sound like a case for the shrink ? You bet ) -All this can easily make a grown man cry - in despair at the pain and confusion of growing and having to shed one's skin but sometimes also out of the pure ecstasy of being ! Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 In a message dated 3/16/00 5:02:19 PM Mountain Standard Time, MHortling writes: << Nevertheless, why shouldn't insights and realisations gained be valid >> During one of my kundalini raptures, I had the vision that every teeny increase in consciousness in creation was equally valuable and cause for celebration -- this means a rock increasing in rock-ness, an ant having an ant's epiphany or a human being realizing the fear behind its act of unkindness. Indeed, it seemed in some way that these modest gains provided the fuel for the universe, since it's all the movement of God-stuff anyway. So, yes, hooray for all of us and hooray for Ramakrishna and the lizard on my deck, too. Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 MHortling wrote: > MHortling > > Hi Tony & everybody ! > > The question that comes up is, when can we begin to speak of personal > realisation, are we actually entitled to talk about ourselves in the same > terms as recognized realised beings like Ramana, the Buddha, Nanak, > Ramakrishna etc. ? > > The view you, Tony seem to advocate is that there's something inherently > blasphemous or at least hypocritical in using vocabulary that's normally > associated with illustrious and luminous beings like the ones above, when > describing one's own spiritual affairs. > > Another approach is to believe and rejoice in one's own experience, even if > this is at first only based on intellectual deduction - which is actually > Jnana-yoga. And as such is a very valid but difficult path, because it's > main focus is in the intellect which also houses the ego. I think it > requires enormous powers of discrimination to avoid the numerous traps that > go with a path that doesn't really take into account purification of > subconscious patterns and energy or the disciplining of the mind/body. > > Nevertheless, why shouldn't insights and realisations gained be valid, - > even if it's easy to delude oneself, I'd still say that it's possible to > talk of realisation although there might be a certain half-bakedness to it - > it's not the complete works, that's all. > > Then there's the totally unorthodox pattern of experience that seems to > happen more and more often, in which people have profound spiritual > experiences and insights without any sadhana or effort or work on the > character at all - take the many accounts of spiritually overwhelming > near-death-experiences as an example. (It's probably the Age of Aquarius - > I'm not joking ! ) > > Anyway, my own experience initially was of this maverick type, I mean I was > eighteen or something and went into total kundalini-induced samadhi and union > after smoking pot with some other longhaired guitar-playing friends... > > No sadhana, a pretty immature outlook on life and a whole bunch of defects of > character and no real spiritual ideals whatsoever. > > The question is, how do you see yourself after such an experience ? > At the time, I had no idea about what had happened to me, so I just filed it > away as something cool and very weird that happened to me. It was only much > later, after being confronted with all the massive problems > kundalini-awakenings like this can bring, and after having done some sadhana > just to save my skin, that I began to reflect on this whole business and > tried to somehow find the adequate definition for my state of being. > > Was I a yogi ? In a certain sense, yes, definitely, I practiced several forms > of yoga, the shakti was well awake and I'd had the ultimate experience of > going beyond myself into infinity. On the other hand I felt terrible most of > the time, acted strange and seemed more like a basket-case on so many > occasions - so what was the bottom line ? > > When I went to India and met sadhus and yogis, many of whom had followings > and seemed like the very essence of realised beings, I could sense that they > hadn't had the experience of cosmic union and shakti was just a concept and > not something that kept them on their toes for 25 hours a day. Still many > radiated strength and knowledge and seemed to be in tune with the universe in > a way that I unfortunately couldn't claim at all. > > Another aspect of the kundalini-process is that, as time goes by and the > energy keeps on hammering away, the former personality begins to recede. The > shakti seems to take over and the witnessing state becomes more firmly > established. This is followed by many automatic spiritual insights and in my > case there have also been numerous profound experiences of realisation, > truth, bliss etc. > > The problem is that it's not really the "I" or the personality that > experiences this, or indeed has earned this by doing sadhana or can claim any > type of responsibility for it or brag about it. In reality it seems as if > it's the immutable and sometimes truly merciless will of this energy to > achieve these higher states - and it does so by slowly killing and > annihilating the normal "I"! > > So, who's realised ? It's like a case of split personality, in which a > previously dormant, but in it's essence radiantly pure and forceful aspect of > the self, squeezes out the old personality or ego-structure, which > unfortunately puts up a huge struggle for survival. > > Now, if this ego-structure claims to be realised, there's an immediate > contradiction, since in essence, it's this very ego-structure, that opposes > the evolution into the greater Self. On the other hand, the action of the > shakti being in itself pure, consciousness experiences itself as free and > enlightened and "realised" and can rightly claim to be so (since it's the > truth). But here again there's still the contradiction of having to live > with unresolved karmas and the limitations and inadequacies of the squirming > ego. Not to mention being restricted by afflictions of the physical body and > all the other problems one might have just by living on this green little > planet. > > What I'm saying is, that in spite of very real realisations, which seem to hav > e more to do with God's will (or maybe rather that of the Goddess) and very > little with the person and the ego, there can still be contradiction and > plain old stupidity and total egoism and extreme depression - and perhaps > even more so than in a normal and balanced person. Even after experiences of > absolute surrender, seeing & feeling everything as God , melting into the > surroundings and being immortal and having a spiritually jolly good time in > general... > > Maybe that makes it unrealised again... > > Sound like a case for the shrink ? You bet ) -All this can easily make a > grown man cry - in despair at the pain and confusion of growing and having to > shed one's skin but sometimes also out of the pure ecstasy of being ! > > Michael > Thanks Michael for some incredible sharing! Love Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 ----- >MHortling > >Hi Tony & everybody ! > >The question that comes up is, when can we begin to speak of personal >realisation, are we actually entitled to talk about ourselves in the same >terms as recognized realised beings like Ramana, the Buddha, Nanak, >Ramakrishna etc. ? > snip of beautiful post.... > > >Michael > > Welcome to the club! Be sure many of us can identify with your story. Similar experiences have been shared here with kundalini process, so you have a lot of company. I quite honestly do not care all that much if someone is realised or not, the friends on these lists are my real teachers. You know there is a tradition of honoring the guru, knowing of faults and imperfections, just as much as one would honor the Buddha. This is because the teacher is the one actually taking his time to bring you the teachings and sharing truth. So I bow to you. I am inspired as much if not more from your sincere and honest experiences as from reading any written truth. The Grace is alive and at work. Thanks for showing us this. Much love, Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2000 Report Share Posted March 16, 2000 Thank you! This is so beautiful! Peace - and Love Abiding - Michael , MHortling@a... wrote: > Hi Tony & everybody ! > > The question that comes up is, when can we begin to speak of personal > realisation, are we actually entitled to talk about ourselves in the same > terms as recognized realised beings like Ramana, the Buddha, Nanak, > Ramakrishna etc. ? > > The view you, Tony seem to advocate is that there's something inherently > blasphemous or at least hypocritical in using vocabulary that's normally > associated with illustrious and luminous beings like the ones above, when > describing one's own spiritual affairs. > > Another approach is to believe and rejoice in one's own experience, even if > this is at first only based on intellectual deduction - which is actually > Jnana-yoga. And as such is a very valid but difficult path, because it's > main focus is in the intellect which also houses the ego. I think it > requires enormous powers of discrimination to avoid the numerous traps that > go with a path that doesn't really take into account purification of > subconscious patterns and energy or the disciplining of the mind/body. > > Nevertheless, why shouldn't insights and realisations gained be valid, - > even if it's easy to delude oneself, I'd still say that it's possible to > talk of realisation although there might be a certain half-bakedness to it - > it's not the complete works, that's all. > > Then there's the totally unorthodox pattern of experience that seems to > happen more and more often, in which people have profound spiritual > experiences and insights without any sadhana or effort or work on the > character at all - take the many accounts of spiritually overwhelming > near-death-experiences as an example. (It's probably the Age of Aquarius - > I'm not joking ! ) > > Anyway, my own experience initially was of this maverick type, I mean I was > eighteen or something and went into total kundalini-induced samadhi and union > after smoking pot with some other longhaired guitar-playing friends... > > No sadhana, a pretty immature outlook on life and a whole bunch of defects of > character and no real spiritual ideals whatsoever. > > The question is, how do you see yourself after such an experience ? > At the time, I had no idea about what had happened to me, so I just filed it > away as something cool and very weird that happened to me. It was only much > later, after being confronted with all the massive problems > kundalini-awakenings like this can bring, and after having done some sadhana > just to save my skin, that I began to reflect on this whole business and > tried to somehow find the adequate definition for my state of being. > > Was I a yogi ? In a certain sense, yes, definitely, I practiced several forms > of yoga, the shakti was well awake and I'd had the ultimate experience of > going beyond myself into infinity. On the other hand I felt terrible most of > the time, acted strange and seemed more like a basket-case on so many > occasions - so what was the bottom line ? > > When I went to India and met sadhus and yogis, many of whom had followings > and seemed like the very essence of realised beings, I could sense that they > hadn't had the experience of cosmic union and shakti was just a concept and > not something that kept them on their toes for 25 hours a day. Still many > radiated strength and knowledge and seemed to be in tune with the universe in > a way that I unfortunately couldn't claim at all. > > Another aspect of the kundalini-process is that, as time goes by and the > energy keeps on hammering away, the former personality begins to recede. The > shakti seems to take over and the witnessing state becomes more firmly > established. This is followed by many automatic spiritual insights and in my > case there have also been numerous profound experiences of realisation, > truth, bliss etc. > > The problem is that it's not really the "I" or the personality that > experiences this, or indeed has earned this by doing sadhana or can claim any > type of responsibility for it or brag about it. In reality it seems as if > it's the immutable and sometimes truly merciless will of this energy to > achieve these higher states - and it does so by slowly killing and > annihilating the normal "I"! > > So, who's realised ? It's like a case of split personality, in which a > previously dormant, but in it's essence radiantly pure and forceful aspect of > the self, squeezes out the old personality or ego-structure, which > unfortunately puts up a huge struggle for survival. > > Now, if this ego-structure claims to be realised, there's an immediate > contradiction, since in essence, it's this very ego-structure, that opposes > the evolution into the greater Self. On the other hand, the action of the > shakti being in itself pure, consciousness experiences itself as free and > enlightened and "realised" and can rightly claim to be so (since it's the > truth). But here again there's still the contradiction of having to live > with unresolved karmas and the limitations and inadequacies of the squirming > ego. Not to mention being restricted by afflictions of the physical body and > all the other problems one might have just by living on this green little > planet. > > What I'm saying is, that in spite of very real realisations, which seem to hav > e more to do with God's will (or maybe rather that of the Goddess) and very > little with the person and the ego, there can still be contradiction and > plain old stupidity and total egoism and extreme depression - and perhaps > even more so than in a normal and balanced person. Even after experiences of > absolute surrender, seeing & feeling everything as God , melting into the > surroundings and being immortal and having a spiritually jolly good time in > general... > > Maybe that makes it unrealised again... > > Sound like a case for the shrink ? You bet ) -All this can easily make a > grown man cry - in despair at the pain and confusion of growing and having to > shed one's skin but sometimes also out of the pure ecstasy of being ! > > > Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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