Greg/K Experience

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/17/2000 7:15:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, goode

writes:

 

<<

Here's a very (overly!) general question. For most people, when they enter

into a Kundalini practice, pursue K-yoga, seek a teacher in the tradition,

etc., have they already felt K-activity and then seek to learn more about

it, or do they hear about it and then want to experience it?

 

I knew there would be a wealth of info on that topic among the learned

members of this list, and this could be the tip of the iceberg!

 

Love,

 

--Greg

>>

Morning Greg,

 

Your ability to give gentle, positive feedback to so many people

simultaneously is really incredible. I must confess, that since

the list has exploded with a plethora of posts lately, I've begun

to hit the delete key... i just can't keep up, and for me it gets

*noisy.* :-)

 

But this is an excellent question. In my own experience, it happened

spontaneously. Now Dharma postulated that kundalini could only be

controlled by beginners. I would think the opposite, that kundalini

like bodily movement could only be "controlled" by people with alot

of experience. But, it may be neither, it may be only those who have

discovered that it's possible.

 

I'll limit this to a couple of small examples which relate to psycho-

neurological chemicals.

 

When I was nine, I was put on a swimteam by my parents at my uncle's

behest, who was a psychiatrist, because I was bronchial asthmatic.

Because I could not breathe easily or deeply, the swimming was not

simple. The first summer, I did not win alot of my races and we were

in the "A" division of a very large set of teams and I was at the bottom

of my 9-10 age group. One night, before the All-Stars, I decided I had

had it and would win. I convinced myself that my sister was drowning

on the other end of the pool and if I didn't get there, she would drown.

I not only won that race, I broke all sorts of records. But it was a

stimulation of my chemicals by my mind. Needless to say, I won alot

after discovering this trick, and I was so embarrassed by my dramatic

thought processes, I never told anyone how i managed to do this <g>.

 

Later, when I was 25-26, I was working very hard, and I began to get

exhausted all the time. I would close the door to my office, lay my

head on my desk and pass out in the middle of the day. Finally, the

boss caught me and sent me off to a doctor. The doctor was a local

GP and diagnosed me with a terminal disease. I was furious (read

terrified) and went in search of a physician who understood Mind/Body,

here in the States. (My uncles, the docs/shrinks, had now died and

the rest of the docs/shrinks live in Europe, except one, and I didn't

want the family to join the "collective consciousness" of "she's

sick" because I think our thoughts are extremely powerful, much

more than we currently realize.)

 

I found a guy, Elliot Dacher, M.D., who was willing to work with my

mind and we began meditating, which I had started and stopped

several times. In about three weeks, my white blood cell count which

had gone through the sky, came down to normal and I was fine. We

also began to work on understanding that although the adrenalin

was useful when we lived 2000 years ago and ran from "lions and tigers

and bears, oh my" it wasn't very useful in the 20th century to load

my body like that and that my mind was completely and totally

responsible for the chemicals coursing through my body, kundalini

included. I was super lucky to discover such a wise physician.

 

Nowadays, when my kundalini rises or not, I direct it within myself depending

on the environment in which i find myself. And, some

 

of the meditations which i have been given by various teachers

along the path i have been asked not to share... so, i am not sure

 

on this. Perhaps the time for sharing more widely is arriving, i

 

don't know.

 

Love*Love*Laughter and Gratitude Gregji,

 

~ bo ~

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/18/00 7:34:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,

Rainbolily writes:

 

<<

Here's a very (overly!) general question. For most people, when they enter

into a Kundalini practice, pursue K-yoga, seek a teacher in the tradition,

etc., have they already felt K-activity and then seek to learn more about

it, or do they hear about it and then want to experience it?

>>

 

Hello Greg,

l'm afraid that l also have been doing alot of deleting cause

of the heavy volume on the list and unfortunately missed your original post,

so l can only address the above excerpt. From my own experience, l believe

that the vast majority of people who begin some form of k-yoga practice with

a teacher do so without having first had k activity of any significance. lt

would be rare to find someone who was first k awakened and then went to a

teacher to work with it, although this does happen (l was such a case). And

my own feeling is that it is actually somewhat dangerous for a k awakened

individual to go to a teacher, especially one who uses shaktipat. Of course,

most teachers would never admit this! And as always with k, no two people

have the same experience. jerry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 03/18/2000 8:01:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,

fisher1 writes:

 

<< Good grief, where did you get this, Annette? I said nothing of the kind.

And I certainly did not put forth any postulate on the matter.

>>

:-) i think it's in the first paragraph but i don't have the email ...

doesn't matter ... you said i think more easily controlled, but it's not

important i think .. i think perhaps the level of awareness which you

raised.. .the fact that we can grow more and more aware of all

the processes, of all of life is perhaps more germane and more

beautiful :-)

 

Love and Light

[Guest guest]

Hi Annette,

>Now Dharma postulated that kundalini could only be

>controlled by beginners.

 

Good grief, where did you get this, Annette? I said nothing of the kind.

And I certainly did not put forth any postulate on the matter.

 

You may be referring to this:

>Some people, when the energy is new and not too

>strong, can reverse the process and allow it to quiet down again,

>postponing its rising for another time. But most people have no choice.

>This is a genie that cannot be put back into the bottle! It has "a mind of

>its own," and you can achieve some measure of "control" only by learning to

>work with it... not against it. Jung said it is an autonomous process

>that arises from the deep unconscious and seems to use the individual as

>its vehicle. Muktananda said it is Shakti herself, manifesting in and

>through the individual.

 

Sannella says that when the active K. is new and not too strong, a person

may be able to allow it to subside, to rise again at some later time. I

know this from personal experience... I had an early outbreak of Kundalini

in the early '70s, and I allowed it to subside... it took about three

months. There were no more K. symptoms until Sept. 1996, when my spiritual

guru activated my K. in meditation.

 

The way to do this is:

 

1) Stop all meditation, including hatha yoga and martial arts.

2) Eat more often and eat heartier food.

3) Get plenty of exercise... but not of the hatha yoga kind.

 

For people who are farther along but experiencing too rapid a process or

too much energy, the same steps will slow the process. Energy overload can

often be moderated by just eating more or more hearty food temporarily.

This is one of the means of control that advanced people can use, but it is

not done by working against the K. process... it is merely a way of

regulating the tempo.

>I would think the opposite, that kundalini

>like bodily movement could only be "controlled" by people with alot

>of experience.

 

I don't know what you mean by "kundalini like bodily movement." Kundalini

is energy... it may or may not cause spontaneous, involuntary movements,

which we call kriyas.

 

People with experience can indeed learn control of their Kundalini, but as

I said, they do not work against the natural K. action... they work in

cooperation with Shakti Kundalini.

 

Sannella says:

> The kundalini force arises spontaneously from deep within the

>body-mind, and is apparently self-directing. Tension and imbalance thus

>result not from the process itself but from conscious or subconscious

>interference with it. Helping a person to understand and accept what is

>happening to him or her may be the best we can do. Usually the process,

>when left alone, will find its own natural pace and balance.

 

There are techniques that can be learned for working with active Kundalini.

You may find some of the material in books, but much is still not committed

to writing. The Tibetans, for instance, still pass along "ear-whispered"

knowledge... that is, passed directly from guru to student.

 

To actually work with the K., it is important to have a good teacher. But

I don't _necessarily_ mean a living human teacher. Your own spiritual

guru, your inner guide, is the best teacher you can ever have, if you can

learn to hear him/her.

>I'll limit this to a couple of small examples which relate to psycho-

>neurological chemicals.

 

These are interesting stories, but they don't seem to relate to physically

active Kundalini. The use of the mind in self-healing is not the same

thing, though it's a wonderful thing. Dr. Carl Simonton was healing

incurable cancers years ago by teaching how to use meditation to turn on

the immune system and direct it. His book, _Getting Well_, is helpful to

many people, not just cancer patients.

>-snip- We

>also began to work on understanding that although the adrenalin

>was useful when we lived 2000 years ago and ran from "lions and tigers

>and bears, oh my" it wasn't very useful in the 20th century to load

>my body like that and that my mind was completely and totally

>responsible for the chemicals coursing through my body, kundalini

>included.

 

Kundalini is not a chemical, although it can stimulate and direct the

production of any chemicals, hormones, etc.

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

 

I'm with Jerry on this. I believe most of the people who seek teaching in

kundalini yoga do not have experience with spontaneous active kundalini. A

lot of the traffic over on the kundalini list is from people with active

kundalini seeking advice on how to keep things managable, or the kundalini

_less_ active--advice like Dharma refers to in her post of yesterday: eat

heavier food, exercise a lot, suspend all spiritual practices. It is

usually dangerous to engage in kundalini yoga practices after k is

awakened. (Just ask Jerry!)

 

But some with mild beginnings of symptoms (see Victor's post) become

curious and want to push things open a bit. I was recently contacted by

someone who had a spontaneous and intense kundalini experience which

resulted in several days of what his family described as psychosis. When I

spoke to him, he was once again poised and calm, but eager to find ways to

assimilate what was for him a profound spiritual experience, and so last

week he left his home to meet a teacher across the country who promised him

shaktipat initiation. This news made me nervous because my experience,

like Jerry's, is that there is real potential for danger once the kundalini

activity has begun.

 

Michael and Dharma addressed this so clearly in their recent posts, thanks

for the succinct and way you put across the concept of how k processes our

stored experience. I always think of Saint Theresa's saying, "Lord, thou

hast quickened me", when trying to understand the workings of k. One is

processing and releasing the stored experiences (or stresses, or karma) of

a vast period of time, in a short matter of years. It often feels like

being put on fast forward mentally, emotionally, biologically--in all ways.

And as Michael said, character traits get amplified. So do emotional

states and physical symptoms.

 

Well, Greg, I realize now I am strayed far off your question, so I'll give

it a rest. Have a good weekend.

 

Love,

 

Jill

[Guest guest]

Hi Jill,

>It is

>usually dangerous to engage in kundalini yoga practices after k is

>awakened.

 

I can't agree with that, Jill. Kundalini Yoga is not just a way to

activate your K... it isn't something you have to give up as soon as you

notice some active K! ) A good K. Yoga teacher should be able to help

you with any problems and should know what practices are safe for you.

 

The danger with _any_ kind of practices lies in using them without knowing

what they're supposed to do, whether they're right and safe for you at the

present time, and what the dangers might be and how to watch for them and

handle them. When people just look around on the net and see something and

say, "Oh, that one looks interesting! Think I'll try that!" or "Oh boy,

that one looks really advanced... maybe it would get me there faster."...

that's when they're likely to get into big trouble.

 

Of course, there's also danger if you don't follow the instructions you're

given. A local teacher of Kundalini Yoga told me that she gave a new

exercise to some students and told them exactly how many minutes they were

to use it... I forget the number, but it was less than half an hour. One

young man decided that if that was good, more would be better, and he did

the exercise continuously for something over 24 hours. He ended up in a

mental hospital, and when I talked to her, he was still there. It wasn't

the teacher's fault, and it wasn't because of having a "dangerous"

exercise... he just completely disregarded the instructions. A few

minutes under a sun lamp can give you a nice glow, but hours under it can

kill you.

 

A teacher is extremely important... someone who's new to K. needs a guide

who knows more about it, who knows the dangers and the practices that can

be helpful and can watch over his practice. If a person can hear his own

spiritual guru, his inner guide, and follows the guidance, then he is

safe... your own spiritual guru is the best teacher you can ever find.

>(Just ask Jerry!)

 

Well, I went back to Jerry's second post. He says:

>l'd been doing vipassana meditation

>pretty intensely for several months and was starting to feel the increased

>concentration and depth from this practice.

 

I wouldn't expect this kind of meditation to lead to K. activation, but I

don't know specifically what he was doing... and it's rather a mystery

that so many people are now getting active K. so easily, many spontaneously.

> Less than 2 weeks after my return home my kundalini

>process began, with energy shooting out of my brow chakra and remaining there

>on a permanent basis (as well as elsewhere). There were 6 months of powerful

>but mostly pleasant energy sensations -- interestingly, every time l looked

>at a tree my brow chakra would go crazy.

 

It sounds to me like there was blockage above the ajna chakra, the brow

center. What would have been helpful would have been a means of getting

rid of that blockage and opening the channel all the way.

>Then certain breathing practices led

>to a long period of continuous headaches and other problems, making any

>meditation impossible.

 

Jerry doesn't say what pranayama practices he was using or where he got

them, though he does say that later he separated from his teacher. But

that pranayama can be powerful stuff. I certainly wouldn't give exercises

like that to someone with a block between ajna and sahasrara. Sannella

says:

>I firmly believe that methods designed specifically to hasten kundalini

>arousal, such as the breath control exercises known as pranayama, are

>hazardous, unless practiced directly under the guidance of a competent

>spiritual teacher, or guru, who should have gone through the whole

>kundalini process himself or herself. Deliberate practice of yogic

>breathing techniques may prematurely unleash titanic inner forces for

>which the unprepared individual has no means of channeling and control.

>The kundalini can be forced, but only to one's own detriment.

----------

>But some with mild beginnings of symptoms (see Victor's post) become

>curious and want to push things open a bit. I was recently contacted by

>someone who had a spontaneous and intense kundalini experience which

>resulted in several days of what his family described as psychosis.

 

Sannella's book very carefully distinguishes between active Kundalini and

psychosis... it's true that people sometimes mistake the K. process for

psychosis.

>When I

>spoke to him, he was once again poised and calm, but eager to find ways to

>assimilate what was for him a profound spiritual experience, and so last

>week he left his home to meet a teacher across the country who promised him

>shaktipat initiation. This news made me nervous because my experience,

>like Jerry's, is that there is real potential for danger once the kundalini

>activity has begun.

 

I think you're right to be nervous! Shaktipat is the transmission of

energy, and he's just had a huge jolt of it! You say he wants to "find

ways to assimilate what was for him a profound spiritual experience." That

doesn't sound to me like a need to be zapped all over again! ))

 

There are some teachers out there who just always do the same thing with

new students, no matter what their prior history is... I wouldn't want to

go to a teacher like that myself.

 

You say he's already left home, so maybe you won't have a chance to talk to

him. But if you do, you might suggest that before he puts himself in the

teacher's hands, it would be good to find out as much as possible about

him. And talk to some people who have studied with him, if possible. We

should be _at least_ as careful about choosing a spiritual teacher as we

are about choosing a surgeon. And I have to know an awful lot about a

surgeon... and then meet him and get my impressions of him... before I'll

let him operate on me!

 

Love,

Dharma

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/19/00 8:02:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, fisher1

writes:

 

<<

A teacher is extremely important... someone who's new to K. needs a guide

who knows more about it, who knows the dangers and the practices that can

be helpful and can watch over his practice. If a person can hear his own

spiritual guru, his inner guide, and follows the guidance, then he is

safe... your own spiritual guru is the best teacher you can ever find.

>(Just ask Jerry!)

>>

 

Hello Dharma, Jill and ALL:

Well, thanx for pulling me into this... Dharma, just to

answer your queries about my practice: lt is somewhat unusal for a vipassana

practitioner to experience k, but it does happen. Vipassana is an extremely

versatile practice in many ways, one being that it has both concentration

and insight aspects. l emphasized concentration more than insight, which may

be one reason why k was triggered. You wondered what type of pranayama

exercises l did. The sufi gave me alternate nostril breathing with breath

retention while doing visualiztions -- these were for heart, brow and crown

chakra (l worked mostly with heart). A swami later opined that the breath

retention was not good to do.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jerry,

> A teacher is extremely important... someone who's new to K. needs a guide

> who knows more about it, who knows the dangers and the practices that can

> be helpful and can watch over his practice. If a person can hear his own

> spiritual guru, his inner guide, and follows the guidance, then he is

> safe... your own spiritual guru is the best teacher you can ever find.

>

> >(Just ask Jerry!)

> Well, thanx for pulling me into this... Dharma, just to

>answer your queries about my practice: lt is somewhat unusal for a vipassana

>practitioner to experience k, but it does happen. Vipassana is an extremely

>versatile practice in many ways, one being that it has both concentration

>and insight aspects. l emphasized concentration more than insight, which may

>be one reason why k was triggered. You wondered what type of pranayama

>exercises l did. The sufi gave me alternate nostril breathing with breath

>retention while doing visualiztions -- these were for heart, brow and crown

>chakra (l worked mostly with heart). A swami later opined that the breath

>retention was not good to do.

 

Probably not... that can be powerful stuff. Though some people find it

just happens naturally in meditation... which could be guidance too.

>The

>question which l most wanted to address was the one about a k awakened person

>going to a teacher. l think that your post was filled with good advice,

>Dharma, but on this one issue of going to a teacher l think l have a slightly

> different perspective than you do. l call it a perspective, not an expert

>opinion, because l'm surely no expert on k. l can speak only as a witness

>from my own experience, and as a result l think it's risky if you're k

>awakened to go to even a so called master.

 

Yes, it's risky... I did it because I was looking for good techniques for

developing K. I already knew about meditation, etc... but not how to

handle active K... develop it and use it as well as possible. And I'm a

teacher... I always want to understand as completely as possible what I'm

doing, and use the best methods and techniques I can find, because I know

that sooner or later I'm going to be teaching whatever I learn. ) I did

find the techniques I wanted... and I also got into a real mess a couple

of times with teachers... had a breakdown before I got myself away from

one of them.

 

I'm just saying that for the person who doesn't know what to do about this

K. phenomenon, a guide and teacher is very important. If he can hear

guiidance from his own spiritual guru... as Amanda did... that's the best

way and the safest way. But a person who doesn't hear anything at all and

seems to have no guidance will ask a question on a list... and people will

send in all kinds of suggestions... some good, some potentially very

dangerous. Some people try a little of this, a little of that... and it's

not smart to mix methods if you don't know what you're doing. It's like

going to several doctors, without telling them you're seeing anyone else...

and then taking all the medicine that ALL of them give you. Any one of the

medicines might be very good... put together, they might kill you.

 

> After my problems began, over the

>next 6 years l either personally saw or got opinions from several more

>experts.

 

You know, I think with the problems you already had, I would have looked

for someone with experience in healing... I don't know how easy such a

person would be to find... Deepak Chopra comes to mind...

>and These included Swami Chetanananda (a well respected swami in the

>Kasmir Shaivism tradition), Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (a renowned Tibetan

>master), a respected chi kung master from China (who swore he could help me),

>a respected lndian swami from an ancient k lineage who's supposed to be an

>authority, and other eminent contemporary k teachers. ln each case in which l

>followed practices or other forms of recommended treatment, my condition was

>made much worse. ln most cases the teacher contradicted much of what the

>previous teachers had said. Some teachers said that the other teachers didn't

>know what they were talking about.

 

That's pretty discouraging, isn't it!

>ln the end the ones l respected most were

>Norbu and another high lama, because they were humble about it --- they were

>the only ones who from the beginning told me not to attempt any sort of

>practices or to listen to any teachers but to simply rest and take it easy.

 

Yes, the Tibetans... So did you listen to them, or did you go on looking

after what they said?

 

> l could write a nice, long post talking about what happened with

>these teachers, but in order to minimize boredom l'm presenting it in summary

>form. The long and short of it is that l don't personally trust k "masters"

>who can guide us all thru k problems. l can accept that others have been

>helped, but l still believe it's risky. And from talking to El and others l

>know l'm not alone. l've heard other reports of people being thrown into

>psychosis and other problems after interacting with reputable k teachers.

 

Really reputable teachers? I know there are a lot of people teaching who

shouldn't be... the kind of "teachers" you wish someone had warned you

away from. )

>l

>also know that several of these teachers refuse to even attempt to help

>someone with problems, feeling they're unable to do so unless the student is

>one of their own.

 

That can be a "line" to snag you for one of their own... "I need your

surrender before I can really help you." "You have to surrender to me so I

can have the 'permission' to help you." "I need more surrender." Those

are danger signals... run!!

 

(I don't mean to denigrate all who use Bhakti Yoga... it can be a

beautiful and very effective way, though it isn't my way. But there are

people who use "devotion and surrender" for their own selfish purposes.)

 

I don't usually share advanced techniques with people who aren't working

closely with me, because I feel a responsibility to know what's happening

with them, in case they need some help and guidance. But I have done it...

when I knew someone had very good hearing and guidance, I have just passed

on the techniques. And I wouldn't refuse to help someone in pain... an

emergency situation... Of course, when you speak of "someone with

problems," that could be almost anyone... maybe it didn't look like an

emergency situation??

> So, what's the answer? l

>certainly agree that a new k experiencer needs guidance. But l'm still

>concerned about any k awakened person interacting energetically with a

>teacher and even doing any prescribed practices. l've learned the hard way

>that the only expert on my process is myself, and l agree with your

>statement that one's inner spiritual guide is the best guru to have in most

>cases.

 

I work _with_ my students' spiritual guides. If a new student doesn't

hear, then that's the first thing to work on. Meditation and learning to

hear the inner guide. I don't go into more advanced work until he hears

his guide or at least can get good intuition from the guide on important

matters. You may have read the post I forwarded from Matt... I'm working

with him, but he still regards His Lady as his main teacher... and rightly

so.

 

But watch out for the teacher who tells you he's working with your guide,

and he can hear your guide better than you can. Your own hearing/intuition

isn't to be trusted yet, but this teacher knows what your guide wants. Red

lights ought to flash!!

>lf l sound like l'm spouting off opinions here, then l'm not

>expressing myself well, because truthfully, this whole thing is still rather

>bewildering to me. lt bothers me enormously that l was unable to find not

>only assistance, but even a consensus among these "experts".

 

It bothers me too... and I'm really surprised.

 

Love,

Dharma